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MotoGP 2021 Round 15: Red Bull Grand Prix of the Americas


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#1 Risil

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Posted 30 September 2021 - 19:01

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It's MotoGP time again! This weekend, starting tomorrow, the delightful blend of vee-fours and straight-fours, trellis and spar frames and, er, red, blue and orange bikes will range across the open country of Texas for the grandiosely-named Grand Prix of the Americas. Technically this is fine as there is no Argentinian Grand Prix this year and there haven't been rounds in Canada, Brazil or Venezuela for ages. This is all MotoGP 2021 is getting from the New World. What's up with the Circuit of the Americas? I know three facts about it: 1) it's also an F1 track, 2) it's based on an original scribble from (Texan) Kevin Schwantz, and 3) Marc Marquez always wins there. That last fact is only partly true, because he actually fell off while leading in 2019 (Alex Rins, who didn't fall off, took advantage and won: 2 years is a long time in MotoGP) and no one won in 2020 after the pandemic-induced calendar shrinkage. Will Marc Marquez win this weekend? This is of course the subtext behind every MotoGP race nowadays so I will save you some time and say that I don't know.

 

However, what I do know is that Ducati facory rider Pecco Bagnaia has joined his teammate Jack Miller and championship leader Fabio Quartararo in becoming a race winner (plural) this season. Like Miller, he even got two in a row. However he's still 48 points off the championship lead so he'll need a lot more wins, and probably some really rubbish finishes from Yamaha's Frenchman, to have any say in deciding this year's title. If I were Bagnaia I'd be watching my back to reigning champion Joan M1r (back to regular Joan Mir next year) whose Suzuki, you'd think, should go well in many of the tracks closing out the year. What of the rest? Maverick Vinales isn't racing owing to the family tragedy documented elsewhere (and below). Enea Bastianini, he of the very old Ducati, followed up a 6th place at Aragon with a career-best 3rd at Misano. I guess he counts as Obscure Form Guy. Valentino Rossi finished his next-to-last home race at Misano as the second-best Yamaha, although this was still 17th position. It may keep Lin Jarvis up at night that the difference between getting his bonus and his P45 is the skinny young French rider who alone knows the secret of how to make his bikes go fast. Welcome to my world, says Alberto Puig.

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We've also got Moto2 and Moto3 running this weekend. Last Moto2 race saw Raul Fernandez continue to reel in his teammate Remy Gardner at an incredibly slow pace, probably inducing Fernandez to curse at the general competence of his own racing team and the relative incompetence of its rivals. Aron Canet continued his good run in the last half-dozen races with a fourth podium of the year on his Boscoscuro (formerly Speed Up) machine. Something is happening in Moto3, but I'm too frightened to watch it. More on that here.

 

When's it happening? In local time, Moto3, Moto2 and MotoGP are at 11am, 12.20pm and 2pm, in that order. Austin is 6 hours behind the UK, so for those stuck in cold, damp BST-land, that's 5pm, 6.20pm and 8pm. 8pm's a great time to watch a motor race though! Enjoy.



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#2 AustinF1

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Posted 30 September 2021 - 19:10

Friday and Saturday looking very wet. I'll be out there tomorrow. Guess I'll take my rain gear.



#3 AustinF1

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Posted 30 September 2021 - 19:43

I hope the problems NASCAR had with the standing water on the back straight don't come up again for the bikes. That didn't seem to be nearly as much of a thing before the resurfacing. Drainage along the back straight appears to have been made much worse by the track resurfacing there.



#4 thegamer23

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Posted 30 September 2021 - 19:44

Super Hyped for this weekend!

Championship battle is getting intense, weather could play a big role, no room for mistakes!

Can Pecco get third win in a row & put more & more pressure to Quartararo?

 



#5 sportyskells

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Posted 30 September 2021 - 19:45

Do not forgot if there lighting about that also could cause issues as we know USA wants people safe from lighting

#6 thegamer23

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Posted 30 September 2021 - 20:21

 

We can't Marquez out either, the absolute King of Austin.

 

6 wins out of 7 races done there.


Edited by thegamer23, 30 September 2021 - 20:21.


#7 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 30 September 2021 - 20:33

Do not forgot if there lighting about that also could cause issues as we know USA wants people safe from lighting

 

What does this mean?



#8 AustinF1

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Posted 30 September 2021 - 20:36

What does this mean?

I think he meant 'lightning'.



#9 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 30 September 2021 - 21:44

Oh. I think everyone probably wants to be safe from lightning.

 

Also, I'm curious to see how Beaubier goes this weekend. It wasn't his strongest circuit on the AMA calendar (just one win, in 2015) but at least he'll be up to speed right away. Should be a good measure of where he's actually at relative to the field after his progress has sort of stalled out at the European circuits.



#10 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 01 October 2021 - 09:35

After watching the press conference yesterday I was surprised how aged Marc looked. The last year must've been really tough on him. An off-season will do him a world of good.
I like the Suzuki's in Austin.

#11 messy

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Posted 01 October 2021 - 09:38

I feel like for all Marc's historical success on this track, physically this will be a much bigger ask of him to hit his old form than, say, the Sachsenring. So I don't massively expect him to win, but we'll see. 


Edited by messy, 01 October 2021 - 09:38.


#12 thegamer23

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Posted 01 October 2021 - 09:40

According to Bagnaia, the surface on the "Esses" section (Sector 1) is very distrupted & worn out with bumps ecc.

Could create some troubles!

Talking about weather.

Rain almost certain today, little bit less tomorrow, sunny & hot on sunday  :smoking:  :smoking:


Edited by thegamer23, 01 October 2021 - 09:42.


#13 AustinF1

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Posted 01 October 2021 - 13:05

According to Bagnaia, the surface on the "Esses" section (Sector 1) is very distrupted & worn out with bumps ecc.

Could create some troubles!

Talking about weather.

Rain almost certain today, little bit less tomorrow, sunny & hot on sunday  :smoking:  :smoking:

Yep. It's terrible & just getting worse ... and they didn't even address it when they were smoothing and resurfacing in 2019/2020.

 

Is there a link to his comments?


Edited by AustinF1, 01 October 2021 - 13:07.


#14 AustinF1

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Posted 01 October 2021 - 13:06

Leaving for the track in a bit. Been raining moderate to heavily for about the last 5 or 6 hours. Flash flood warning in the area. Nice day.



#15 red stick

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Posted 01 October 2021 - 13:37

Leaving for the track in a bit. Been raining moderate to heavily for about the last 5 or 6 hours. Flash flood warning in the area. Nice day.

I'm assuming you have a decent pair of waterproof boots?   :cool:



#16 thegamer23

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Posted 01 October 2021 - 13:59

Leaving for the track in a bit. Been raining moderate to heavily for about the last 5 or 6 hours. Flash flood warning in the area. Nice day.


Shame for the weather, have fun!!

#17 thegamer23

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Posted 01 October 2021 - 14:46

Big off for Sergio Garcia in the Moto 3 FP1!

He lost control of his bike at the exit of the snake & smashed into the air fences!

Looked hurt, but he got up, should be nothing serious! 

 

MotoGP time


Edited by thegamer23, 01 October 2021 - 14:57.


#18 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 01 October 2021 - 15:44

The middle of the esses looks like it belongs on a motocross track.



#19 ehagar

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Posted 01 October 2021 - 15:58

Nagashima is back! 



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#20 sportyskells

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Posted 01 October 2021 - 15:58

Someone in fim bad books for breaking the 7 day test limit and not telling fim. Forced to sit out today and this is a moto2 rider

#21 ehagar

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Posted 01 October 2021 - 16:01

Manzi.. did a Supersport race last week.



#22 thegamer23

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Posted 01 October 2021 - 16:07

FP1 RESULTS

 

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#23 thegamer23

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Posted 01 October 2021 - 19:39

Jesus, those bumps are insane!

Cadwell Park vibes, looks like they're about to takeoff in some sections.

FP2 going on.

.

Edited by thegamer23, 01 October 2021 - 19:45.


#24 AustinF1

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Posted 01 October 2021 - 22:15

I'm assuming you have a decent pair of waterproof boots?   :cool:

I do, but it was only a little muddy on the pathways. 

Shame for the weather, have fun!!

It actually stopped raining just before we got there & turned into a nice day.

 

ETA: However, tomorrow does not look great. Glad I'm not going.


Edited by AustinF1, 01 October 2021 - 22:34.


#25 AustinF1

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Posted 01 October 2021 - 22:16

Big off for Sergio Garcia in the Moto 3 FP1!

He lost control of his bike at the exit of the snake & smashed into the air fences!

Looked hurt, but he got up, should be nothing serious! 

 

MotoGP time

There were lots of offs, all day. It was pretty crazy.



#26 AustinF1

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Posted 01 October 2021 - 22:23

The middle of the esses looks like it belongs on a motocross track.

It really is a shambles. And a shame. We also saw lots of other significant bumps in other places besides the esses. One on the entry to 14 was giving them hell. The apex of 2, apex of 10, exit of 12, 15, & around 16-19, too.

 

Couldn't see much more of the track because they had fan access blocked off from T8 all the way to T12. Yet again. F these COTA aholes. Seriously.


Edited by AustinF1, 01 October 2021 - 22:59.


#27 AustinF1

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Posted 01 October 2021 - 22:27

Jesus, those bumps are insane!

Cadwell Park vibes, looks like they're about to takeoff in some sections.

It's awful.



#28 AustinF1

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Posted 01 October 2021 - 22:45

 
Mat Oxley
@matoxley
Quartararo, Lecuona, Mir etc now branding the track "dangerous" or "unsafe". Will be a noisy safety commission this evening


#29 AustinF1

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 05:39

Whoa, the boys aren't pulling any punches ... really letting COTA have it.

 

 

Aleix Espargaro: ‘It's a joke to be here ... For me, we cannot race’. 
 
Lecuona: 'It's the worst track I've ridden in my life. It’s dangerous. Honestly. It’s very dangerous, riding like this. In every corner, in every lap, you almost crash'.
 
Pol Espargaro: 'Today I could manage the situation, I could make a good laptime,” Espargaro admitted, “[but] honestly speaking, I have my neck completely destroyed. I have quite a lot of pain on my neck. It’s like it’s asleep, from the many bumps that there are. My back is fully destroyed, my wrists are completely tired and I have quite [big] pain on my left one, which I have an old injury but still, there is a plate on and the impacts are so big and the bumps are so big that, on a street bike maybe you can manage, but on a MotoGP bike, the MotoGP bikes are super hard, super aggressive, super powerful, heavy, and, you know, honestly, I have all my body destroyed, like I’ve been doing three days of testing'.
 
Bagnaia: 'Today the thing to do is to understand how to be fast on the bumps because it’s one of the most dangerous tracks I’ve ever ridden. Normally when a circuit makes new asphalt it’s better, not worse, and we have to understand why they decided to do what they did.
 
MotoGP’s COTA crisis explained https://t.co/cmFgvaNEu0
 
Today at T10, which was actually the first turn to be shaved and resurfaced, back in 2019. Scary af.

Edited by AustinF1, 02 October 2021 - 05:48.


#30 Disgrace

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 06:19

A big test of the series now in the context of the recent spate of rider deaths. Will they take their riders seriously?



#31 AustinF1

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 06:28

Two 45 minute sessions, and he feels like he does after 3 full days of testing.

 

That's a pretty powerful statement, imho ... as is "worst track I've ridden in my life". He's not the first rider to say that about COTA either, and just imagine how many tracks these guys have ridden.

 

ETA: Oops. Make that just one session. More from Pol:

 

"I feel like I did a 3-days of test, but I just did 1 session"
"Track is not at MotoGP level. Asphalt is really bad, cracked everywhere. And bumps are super dangerous."
"The race is going to be very dangerous, I don't want a disaster/misfortune to happen."

Edited by AustinF1, 02 October 2021 - 07:06.


#32 sportyskells

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 06:29

What could cota do to calm down this lot bearing in mind in three weeks time f1 will be there

#33 thegamer23

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 06:47

 

Whoa, the boys aren't pulling any punches ... really letting COTA have it.

 

 

Aleix Espargaro: ‘It's a joke to be here ... For me, we cannot race’. 
 
Lecuona: 'It's the worst track I've ridden in my life. It’s dangerous. Honestly. It’s very dangerous, riding like this. In every corner, in every lap, you almost crash'.
 
Pol Espargaro: 'Today I could manage the situation, I could make a good laptime,” Espargaro admitted, “[but] honestly speaking, I have my neck completely destroyed. I have quite a lot of pain on my neck. It’s like it’s asleep, from the many bumps that there are. My back is fully destroyed, my wrists are completely tired and I have quite [big] pain on my left one, which I have an old injury but still, there is a plate on and the impacts are so big and the bumps are so big that, on a street bike maybe you can manage, but on a MotoGP bike, the MotoGP bikes are super hard, super aggressive, super powerful, heavy, and, you know, honestly, I have all my body destroyed, like I’ve been doing three days of testing'.
 
Bagnaia: 'Today the thing to do is to understand how to be fast on the bumps because it’s one of the most dangerous tracks I’ve ever ridden. Normally when a circuit makes new asphalt it’s better, not worse, and we have to understand why they decided to do what they did.
 
MotoGP’s COTA crisis explained https://t.co/cmFgvaNEu0
 
Today at T10, which was actually the first turn to be shaved and resurfaced, back in 2019. Scary af.

 

 

 

Very strong statements by the riders.

 

Never seen such bumps on a MotoGP circuit. 
It's like a Rodeo!

Granted, it looks spectacular from outside, but from the riders it must be such a painful & scary ride.

 

Let's see how it goes today.

More rain expected too.


Edited by thegamer23, 02 October 2021 - 06:48.


#34 messy

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 07:11

That’s ridiculous, how on earth can they race on that, especially in the wake of recent events?

#35 Ickx

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 08:06

That looks insane. From the statements it feels it could very well be cancelled. If so, F1 going for similar fate? 



#36 Hellenic tifosi

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 08:15

That looks insane. From the statements it feels it could very well be cancelled. If so, F1 going for similar fate?


Bumps in Motogp are far more dangerous than F1. If anything, bumpy circuits could even be desirable for F1.

#37 ehagar

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 14:28

Jesus, those bumps are insane!

Cadwell Park vibes, looks like they're about to takeoff in some sections.

FP2 going on.

.

 

No... it's almost Isle of Man vibes the way the bikes twitch!



#38 F1matt

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 14:36

When a track is given approval to hold an F1 race or a MotoGP race do they face an annual inspection or do they only have the initial checks before approval is given? After watching free practice it is hard to see how this event can run safely especially if we have rain. 



#39 Risil

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 14:39

My guess is that there will be one manufacturer with the softest chassis or whatever that can handle the bumps best, and they will fight like hell to make sure the race goes ahead. Jack Miller sounds like he's been enjoying himself out there but then he is built differently to the rest of them.

If anything I would expect rain to improve things as teams will use softer tyre constructions and more yielding setups that ride the track's undulations better. But I think it'll be dry on Sunday.

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#40 Risil

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 14:46

All that said I've got a crazy idea that the US GP should be held at Barber Motorsports Park in Alabama. So we need to discredit all the other circuits first.

#41 ehagar

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 15:06

Barber would be great if it was bigger. It's a smidge longer than Sachsenring. I think there were comments from AMA riders that if you could scale it 1.5X the place would be perfect.



#42 OvDrone

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 15:07

Whatever my feelings are, I am siding with the riders. It's them who do this and put their lives on the line.

 

I would really like to see a race but I hope management starts listening to the riders, regardless of the series.



#43 thegamer23

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 15:42

Miller looks OMNIOUS!

6 tenths faster than anybody else in FP3

Captain America confirmed.

Pecco seems to be struggling a little bit here
.

Edited by thegamer23, 02 October 2021 - 15:49.


#44 Myrvold

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 16:11

That’s ridiculous, how on earth can they race on that, especially in the wake of recent events?

 

Because, as we know. Life doesn't matter that much until it happens with a big name.



#45 AustinF1

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 16:44

Bumps in Motogp are far more dangerous than F1. If anything, bumpy circuits could even be desirable for F1.

Up to a point.



#46 AustinF1

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 16:56

Warning: long, and features graphic descriptions of carnage inflicted upon COTA racing surface.

 

For anyone who isn't clear about what the real underlying issues are at COTA, here's an explanation I've posted before on other boards. Sorry so long, but there's really no quick way to explain it:
 
"Yes, it's bumpy af, even after they resurfaced 40% of the circuit in 2019-20. The soil is constantly shifting and heaving, laterally and vertically.
 
The roads all around the circuit go through the same problems. They're like rollercoasters. The county comes out and levels & resurfaces them every few years, but within a few months they're crazy rollercoasters again. Hell, the utility poles in the area won't even stay vertical and have to be re-installed every few years. They install them nice and plumb, but in a year or two they need to be re-set because they're leaning. They replace them over and over.
 
COTA Blvd is a great example, too. It was billiard table smooth in 2012 when it was built. It quickly became so bumpy that you can't drive even close to the speed limit on it without catching air in several places. No F1 cars driving out there.
 
If you're interested in the backstory, I wrote this about the soil problems a while back. Sorry so long, but there's no quick way to explain it.
 
Short version: It's very bumpy at racing speeds, esp along the east side, and is cracking/coming apart, and they aren't doing anything serious to fix the underlying problem.
 
Medium/long version: The ground is not very stable (putting it kindly). Really, it just never stops moving. Remember a couple of years ago when Jennie Gow reported that the teams take scans of the track on every visit, and it had moved as much as 1.5 meters in places since the previous GP there? Think about that for a second. Holy crap. That led to the all-night bump grinding ops on Friday night of the GP weekend. Seriously, wtf? There have been other bump grinding ops done prior to that as well. That helps only marginally, and thins & weakens the track surface, accelerating the appearance of new bumps & cracks in the future.
 
Here's the deal, in a nutshell. Unlike many other tracks, COTA will never get to a point where it's 'finished settling' and then be relatively stable.
 
This isn't normal settling that can be remedied by repaving every few years as at other circuits. There are massive problems with shifting soil/clay there, which was known even before they took the first core samples. The soil in that area basically never stops moving. COTA's track surface is not going to eventually settle and be stable going forward.
 
The black clay out there is extremely porous and expansive, expanding like a sponge in wet weather and shrinking in dry, hot weather. When it expands, it heaves and moves laterally. When it shrinks, it moves again and cracks.Long story a little shorter: the engineers knew about it and put an engineering solution in place to limit the issues. They dug down as much as 20 feet in places and laid an impermeable polymer barrier, then refilled it all with prescribed, imported road base aggregates, then paved on top of that.
 
The track is built along the side of a hill. A drainage solution was designed to divert rain runoff down the hill - under the track and under the water barrier. This way, the engineers sought to create a 'tube' on which the track would rest and which would be made more stable than the surrounding soil by controlling the water content inside it. Great in theory. Not so much in execution.
 
The theory was probably good, but what we've heard from multiple sources is that Epstein went cheaper and smaller on the drainage system than what was recommended by the engineers. Then when big rain events predictably occurred, the downsized drainage system was overwhelmed. Water is always going to find a way downhill, no matter what, so it ran across, under, and even through the now-damaged subsurface barrier 'tube'. The water moving inside the tube weakened the track base and caused subsidence. That created bumps and cracks in the surface. You can see evidence of this during any significant rain at COTA, as water weeps up from the track base (where it's not even supposed to be) and out through cracks in the track surface.
 
I've taken photos the last few years of water weeping up from under the asphalt, through cracks in the track. Last night, I was texted another such photo by a buddy who was out there yesterday. The photo shows water weeping up & out through cracks in the asphalt at one of the problem areas, between turns 9 and 10. The last rain out there was over a week ago and water was still weeping out onto the track yesterday.
 
That area is one of the segments that was resurfaced in January 2020. Other areas where we've noticed such weeping are downhill of turn 1, all along the esses, at turn 10, around turn 11, along the back straight, and around turns 17-20. In January 2020, they did some work on the deteriorating track surface. A lot of people think they resurfaced the whole thing, but they actually only resurfaced about 40% of the track, inexplicably ignoring some of the roughest areas (as noted by Tony Kanaan during IndyCar 'spring training). It's still very bumpy along the east side of the circuit (T2-11).
 
They claimed at the time that they were going to address the underlying drainage system deficiencies that are a big part of the problem. True to form for COTA, they ignored the drainage system and, as we predicted, the newly-resurfaced areas soon had big new bumps and cracking problems (that are actually just continuations of the same problems they've always had and have never addressed in any serious way). They ended up resurfacing some of those newly-paved areas once and even twice more in the following months, because the bumps & cracks kept coming back so quickly."
 
From the Jan 2020 IndyCar test. There was also actually weeping that day farther up at the 10 apex and beyond. It never dried up, all day, and the weather was dry that day. I have many more pics of large networks of deep cracks in the surface that you can't see on TV, and of weeping at T1-2 and T18-19, but they're all in different albums all over the place.
EgNIh8T.jpg
 
 
This pic is from 2 months later, several days after any rain out there.
yWIc0cl.jpg

Edited by AustinF1, 02 October 2021 - 17:13.


#47 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 17:10

Seems like the perfect spot for an international racing circuit.....smh.....
Bring back Laguna. Or indy ffs.

#48 Risil

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 17:12

Thanks Austin, that tallies with what I've read from Kevin Cameron (God). Shitty situation that this was foreseen and mitigated against, but the problems occurred anyway.

#49 AustinF1

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 17:30

Autosport: What is causing COTA’s “dangerous” surface problems for MotoGP? https://www.autospor...motogp/6679721/



#50 AustinF1

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Posted 02 October 2021 - 17:50

Raining at my house 20 min away from COTA. Here we go ...