1045 replies to this topic

[A3]

Apparently people had great difficulty getting to and from the circuit today. I read about busses on their way to the race were still stuck in traffic 3 hours after the race. 

 

Apparently the circuit had only one entrance/exit for 150k people.

https://twitter.com/...284277717184519

 

https://twitter.com/...308816014524417

https://twitter.com/...305195805941769

https://twitter.com/...291640255848450

https://twitter.com/...289447989514245

 

#TurkishGP or be nice in a job. You brought the biggest organization in the world, but the entrance and exit is a disgrace. Walking for miles, looking for a place to leave the car, ill-treatment at every entry point, exorbitant prices... You are literally torturing the person who comes there.

https://twitter.com/...289268771172358

 

There cannot be such a bad, such a disgraceful organization. People become disgraceful with their money, no taxis, buses can't find their way, if you're on foot, it's hard, especially if you're a tourist, you got burned, but I think they said it's a super organization on TV. The only beauty was F1 cars and pilots.#TurkishGP#f1turkishgp

https://twitter.com/...286933072265224

[Astandahl]

Here you can really see the graining effect. It's absolutely crazy. Drivers were losing 4 seconds of performance in the graining phase.

[Laptom]

RBR would never do that. Doing so would offer too much of a direct comparison to Lewis. I imagine both Verstappens would veto it as well.

Verstappen does not has a veto for the second seat. And Perez is not that far off Bottas, what would be the benefit? Only thing I can think of is the IP and WoW of the Merc team is some good info to have.

[MaroF1]

RBR would never do that. Doing so would offer too much of a direct comparison to Lewis. I imagine both Verstappens would veto it as well.

 

You having a laugh mate?

[HP]

It was fortunately for both of them. I doubt Perez would back off if he ran out of track. Maybe Hamilton wouldn’t push as hard if there was no asphalt there, but who knows. I do agree driving standards have gone down. But it’s not drivers’ fault.

It is. They drive that thing, and it's their decision. If the FIA clamp down, many in here and elsewhere want the FIA to be more lenient and let them race. I'd also tend to be on the side of letting them race. That is on the assumption that drivers know what they do and keep it fair and within track limits.

 

And while it is hardly Hamilton setting the standard in bad track behavior he or someone else could set a new, better standard. The last champ setting a better standard was Jenson Button. FIA didn't had to enforce punishments for Button to race like he did.

Edited by HP, 10 October 2021 - 23:41.

[CoolBreeze]

Hamilton should have have been reprimanded. Second time he's pushing a red bull driver out of the circuit. 

[Nemo1965]

Here you can really see the graining effect. It's absolutely crazy. Drivers were losing 4 seconds of performance in the graining phase.

This demonstrates why I just not thought it was an exciting race… Not that I want to deny the fans who enjoyed it but if you look critically you saw that almost everyone was driving quite carefully. I never had the impression for example that Max was even even intending to go after Bottas. After the race he said he was quite bored, though it was difficult because he had to drive to a precise delta to keep the tires alive.

Of course Hamilton was entertaining, but at the same time he had such a car advantage, both in straight line speed as in grip, the shine went off quickly. I don’t think it was a particularly boring race, but for a race in damp conditions? In that category this was the most boring I have seen..

Edited by Nemo1965, 11 October 2021 - 05:53.

[shure]

RBR would never do that. Doing so would offer too much of a direct comparison to Lewis. I imagine both Verstappens would veto it as well.

why would you think that they wouldn't want that comparison, let alone that they were so afraid of it they'd go out of their way to ensure it ever happened?

 

The only way I could see a driver vetoing another (assuming they had that power, which I think is just nonsense anyway) is if they thought that having that driver onboard would interfere with their own WDC chances, like Senna was reported to have done with Derek Warwick, because he wanted the team to focus on him and therefore didn't want a strong driver in the other seat.  But I can't think why you'd imagine that a fear of Lewis' team mate would drive such a decision.  That seems tin foil hat territory

[Clrnc]

Here you can really see the graining effect. It's absolutely crazy. Drivers were losing 4 seconds of performance in the graining phase.

Great graph. You can see once past the graining phase Lewis was quick. 

 

He should have pitted when the team called him in. He would have caught up with the rest and even finished 3rd with his pace. 

[Clrnc]

Checo was great today but still think Red Bull should have stuck Valteri in the second seat for next season.

Checo is better than Valtteri. No contest. 

[Tomerell]

Checo is better than Valtteri. No contest. 

And this is based on what?

[TheAviator]

Checo is better than Valtteri. No contest.

No, no he is not. Better racecraft/defending? Yes. Quali, pure pace? No. And that is what matters the most with good car, they are not squabling in midfield where his racecraft will become a more appearent advantage.

[Celloman]

Mm, I would agree with that assessment, Bottas being the better qualifier and Checo the better racer. Bottas hasn't done particularly well this year though in terms of helping Hamilton gain points on Verstappen. I reckon Turkey was the first race all season in which he managed to take away any points from VER. Checo even being out of the picture managed to do that in Monaco, Baku (by distracting Hamilton) and now Turkey.

Edited by Celloman, 11 October 2021 - 09:30.

[Marklar]

Great graph. You can see once past the graining phase Lewis was quick. 

 

He should have pitted when the team called him in. He would have caught up with the rest and even finished 3rd with his pace. 

I see people keep bringing this up but I disagree. Had he pitted on lap 42 as instructed he possibly would have caught Leclerc thanks to his graining phase (though at that point no one knew that Leclerc was going this long), but he wouldnt have got that luxury with Perez because he pitted earlier. And he couldnt pass him before that when it was easier to pass (a drier line was slowly developing) and when he wasnt at a tyre disadvantage (pitting earlier gave you better tyres in this scenario, except when it's too early like in Ricciardo's case). P3 was as likely with what Merc wanted and with what Hamilton attempted to do IMO, but the latter obviously was much riskier in him losing much more with too little to gain. Unwise in a WDC battle.

The right call would be to pit before the leaders did, but this is very Captain Hindsight, at that point no one knew what the best strategy was. And it seems pretty overkill to me how much grief both Mercedes (from one side) and Hamilton (from a different side) get for this. They've made so much worse calls this season than this.

Edited by Marklar, 11 October 2021 - 09:31.

[P123]

And this is based on what?

Online animosity from being Hamilton's teammate and not beating him?  

 

Although the absolute assurance people have of driver x being better than diver y is always interesting as driver form can fluctuate depending on the team/ car.  Look way back at HHF post-Williams.  Or Danny Ricciardo coming in and beating Vettel, and then his issues this season.  Even Perez hasn't exactly had what could be described as a solid season.  Generally, they are all within tenths of each other.

[Clrnc]

No, no he is not. Better racecraft/defending? Yes. Quali, pure pace? No. And that is what matters the most with good car, they are not squabling in midfield where his racecraft will become a more appearent advantage.

That is fair assessment, my opinion was from their entire career watching them. But youre right if you don't have raw speed sometimes being stuck in midfield is a disavantage no matter how good your race pace is. 

 

I rate Perez highly though and we can all judge at the end of the season. Don't forget this is only his first season with RB and still adapting, but he is already close to Bottas the entire season. 

[Zoe]

I reckon Turkey was the first race all season in which he managed to take away any points from VER. 

 

 

You forgot Hungary.

[Burtros]

Hamilton now claims he wasn’t angry with the team post Pitstop? Did I watch a different race or something? Does he think we are stupid?

More importantly, why deny it? He doesn’t need too, he is allowed to be angry over what happened even if ultimately he is as much to blame as Mercedes.

Edited by Burtros, 11 October 2021 - 11:29.

[P123]

Hamilton now claims he wasn’t angry with the team post Pitstop? Did I watch a different race or something? Does he think we are stupid?

More importantly, why deny it? He doesn’t need too, he is allowed to be angry over what happened even if ultimately he is as much to blame as Mercedes.

From what I've read, why make up a post like you just have?  What did you read?  Why are you getting yourself wound up?

[Singularity]

I always wait until after the race before voting in these polls, just to make sure I get it right.

[Burtros]

From what I've read, why make up a post like you just have? What did you read? Why are you getting yourself wound up?

It’s on his social media feed.

What makes you think I’m wound up about it? Lol. Are you wound up when I pick a problem with Lewis?

It’s amusing if I feel anything about it.

Edited by Burtros, 11 October 2021 - 12:11.

[FortiFord]

Hamilton should have have been reprimanded. Second time he's pushing a red bull driver out of the circuit. 

 

Checo was still within the white lines, therefore he wasn't off circuit. 

[Anderis]

Checo is better than Valtteri. No contest. 

I don't know if we're watching a different season but I can't see why anyone with honesty would conclude after this year that Bottas is not at the very least in the same ballpark as Perez. Taking Verstappen and Hamilton as benchmarks, I would definetely rate Bottas' performance slightly higher this year.

Edited by Anderis, 11 October 2021 - 12:47.

[Nemo1965]

I don't know if we're watching a different season but I can't see why anyone with honesty would conclude after this year that Bottas is not at the very least in the same ballpark as Perez. Taking Verstappen and Hamilton as benchmarks, I would definetely rate Bottas' performance slightly higher this year.

Considering the facts, that is a completely reasonable opinion. But I have a sneaky suspicion that if Lewis and Bottas would drive at, say, McLaren or Red Bull, the difference between Lewis and Valtteri would be bigger, both in qualifying and in races. Because of the inherent power advantage of the Mercedes, they can put so much downforce on the car, that even for Lewis it is difficult to squeak more performance out of the car than a very capable teammate.

Edited by Nemo1965, 11 October 2021 - 12:59.

[CharlesWinstone]

Mm, I would agree with that assessment, Bottas being the better qualifier and Checo the better racer. Bottas hasn't done particularly well this year though in terms of helping Hamilton gain points on Verstappen. I reckon Turkey was the first race all season in which he managed to take away any points from VER. Checo even being out of the picture managed to do that in Monaco, Baku (by distracting Hamilton) and now Turkey.

In Hungary Bottas did an astounding job taking points away from Verstappen and in one go bowling Perez out as well. I can't think of any supporting driver who did this better than Bottas in Hungary.

[Astandahl]

Tremendous pace by Max and Charles in the first stint. Only 0.1s per lap slower than Bottas in a dominant Mercedes.

 

[d246]

Hamilton now claims he wasn’t angry with the team post Pitstop? Did I watch a different race or something? Does he think we are stupid?

More importantly, why deny it? He doesn’t need too, he is allowed to be angry over what happened even if ultimately he is as much to blame as Mercedes.

 

I find it odd that the media always seem surprised that a driver shouts, or has what could be considered an aggressive comment whilst in the middle of battle on track. It doesn't matter whether it's Hamilton, Norris, VER. It's like when they shove a microphone under their nose when they're full of adrenalin having just walked away from a breakdown or a crash and act surprised when they get a short answer.

Just as well they didn't have access to radios in Piquet or Hunt's day.

[P123]

It’s on his social media feed.

What makes you think I’m wound up about it? Lol. Are you wound up when I pick a problem with Lewis?

It’s amusing if I feel anything about it.

I had a look at his social media posted here- he explains he wanted to try to go to the end (clear from the race), accepts the stop was the safest call (with hindsight, a skill we all use here), and explains that people shouldn't expect to hear polite radio comms in the heat of battle (listen to Iceman getting agitated about a drinks bottle, and that just when sitting in the garage..).  Well, we don't really, but many like to criticise drivers they dislike whenever they hear a tetchy radio call and the media do love some drama.  Maybe broadcast radio comms require a public health announcement in advance.

 

So I was puzzled by your "does he think I'm stupid" response... an expression of disbelief/ exasperation (i.e wound up!).  What wool was he pulling over your eyes?

Edited by P123, 11 October 2021 - 15:30.

[F1Johnny]

I had a look at his social media posted here- he explains he wanted to try to go to the end (clear from the race), accepts the stop was the safest call (with hindsight, a skill we all use here), and explains that people shouldn't expect to hear polite radio comms in the heat of battle (listen to Iceman getting agitated about a drinks bottle, and that just when sitting in the garage..).  Well, we don't really, but many like to criticise drivers they dislike whenever they hear a tetchy radio call and the media do love some drama.  Maybe broadcast radio comms require a public health announcement in advance.

 

So I was puzzled by your "does he think I'm stupid" response... an expression of disbelief/ exasperation (i.e wound up!).  What wool was he pulling over your eyes?

 

Yep.  These exchanges with drivers actually racing at the time and discussing critical phases in their race, even more so with a championship at stake seems quite normal and very similar to what happens in office environments as well.  I expect radio convos to be far worse and fraught with stressful and anxious sounding drivers.  It's unfair in a way for us to hear the exchanges.  In our offices or work spaces, tough convos are not broadcast across the world.

[Clrnc]

I don't know if we're watching a different season but I can't see why anyone with honesty would conclude after this year that Bottas is not at the very least in the same ballpark as Perez. Taking Verstappen and Hamilton as benchmarks, I would definetely rate Bottas' performance slightly higher this year.

People aren't saying that after Baku, so it's easy to say this after Turkey. Judge by the end of the season like I said 

[Singularity]

Tremendous pace by Max and Charles in the first stint. Only 0.1s per lap slower than Bottas in a dominant Mercedes.

 

 

True, but it was in Bottas, or at least Mercedes, interest to keep the gap between Hamilton and the leaders as small as possible so I doubt Valtteri pushed 100%.

[MikeTekRacing]

True, but it was in Bottas, or at least Mercedes, interest to keep the gap between Hamilton and the leaders as small as possible so I doubt Valtteri pushed 100%.

nobody pushed 100% - They even said it was all about managing tyres, from lap 1 to the end.

Bottas did a stellar job yesterday, really top class

[MasterOfCoin]

You forgot Hungary.

Doesn't he still need to finish in front of Max, from what i recall he DNF'ed.......

[ARTGP]

You forgot Hungary.

 

Some of us are still trying to forget Hungary....  . Alonso-Hamilton making it very hard.

[ARTGP]

Tremendous pace by Max and Charles in the first stint. Only 0.1s per lap slower than Bottas in a dominant Mercedes.

 

 

Nobody was trying very hard. The fact that Bottas managed to get 38 laps out of his inters suggest he was driving well within himself.  I do wonder what the ultimate pace could have been.   Hamilton was considerably faster than the 3 of them once he got into clean air in the first stint.  Nevertheless, the 3 of them still had a bit more pace than anybody bar Hamilton.

Edited by ARTGP, 12 October 2021 - 03:16.

[SenorSjon]

Verstappen said in his interview he had zero laps where he pushed out of fear the tires would somehow cave in.

[Dolph]

Hamilton now claims he wasn’t angry with the team post Pitstop? Did I watch a different race or something? Does he think we are stupid?

More importantly, why deny it? He doesn’t need too, he is allowed to be angry over what happened even if ultimately he is as much to blame as Mercedes.

Being agitated is not the same as being angry.

[shure]

Nobody was trying very hard. The fact that Bottas managed to get 38 laps out of his inters suggest he was driving well within himself.  I do wonder what the ultimate pace could have been.   Hamilton was considerably faster than the 3 of them once he got into clean air in the first stint.  Nevertheless, the 3 of them still had a bit more pace than anybody bar Hamilton.

BIB: is that really true, though?  With the caveat that I didn't watch the race and am going purely from the stats, I see that in the first stint that Lewis appeared to have the upper hand from laps 10-25, but that was as much down to both of them having variable pace as it was down to constant fast laps from Hamilton.

 

From lap 10 to lap 12, Lewis ups the pace and it looks like Bottas wakes up on lap 13 and pumps in a couple of quicker ones than Lewis himself (and considerably quicker than Bottas had been going at that point).  From then on it yo-yos a bit tbh but the bigger performance gaps between the two are often a result of one of the drivers having a particularly slow lap compared to the other.  

 

Having said all that, of course, I have little doubt that Lewis would have beaten Bottas had he started on pole.  And I agree that Bottas probably was driving well within himself.  But I'd suggest Lewis wasn't, as he had to work at getting the best result possible, so with that framework in mind I don't think that Bottas did all that bad overall.  All he had to beat was Max, and once he could see that Max was struggling, then he didn't haver to work all that hard.  Lewis had to charge and contend with traffic, so very different strategies for both, making comparisons pretty difficult

[Peugeot905evo1bis]

Great graph. You can see once past the graining phase Lewis was quick. 

 

He should have pitted when the team called him in. He would have caught up with the rest and even finished 3rd with his pace. 

Or he should have stayed out. When you look at his laptimes before he pitted, they were still pretty decent. He only lost 1.022s to Perez in the last 2 laps before his pitstop.

With 8 laps to go and 10s avantage to Leclerc and 12s to Perez, I think he could have make it. (especially taking into account the graining Leclerc had). 

[Requiem84]

Or he should have stayed out. When you look at his laptimes before he pitted, they were still pretty decent. He only lost 1.022s to Perez in the last 2 laps before his pitstop.

With 8 laps to go and 10s avantage to Leclerc and 12s to Perez, I think he could have make it. (especially taking into account the graining Leclerc had). 

 

It will always remain a risk reward question: staying out had the upside of potentially having a greater reward (1 or 2 places higher?), but the risk associated with the reward was in my view too high: either destroying the intermediates and 0 points, or slowing down so dramatically that he would be in an even lower position.

 

Let's say Hamilton had stayed out and his tire would have blown or he would have spun on a wet patch because there was no thread left, then we'd have a 20 pages topic here how big the mistake was to not pit him. 

[ARTGP]

BIB: is that really true, though? With the caveat that I didn't watch the race and am going purely from the stats, I see that in the first stint that Lewis appeared to have the upper hand from laps 10-25, but that was as much down to both of them having variable pace as it was down to constant fast laps from Hamilton.

From lap 10 to lap 12, Lewis ups the pace and it looks like Bottas wakes up on lap 13 and pumps in a couple of quicker ones than Lewis himself (and considerably quicker than Bottas had been going at that point). From then on it yo-yos a bit tbh but the bigger performance gaps between the two are often a result of one of the drivers having a particularly slow lap compared to the other.

Having said all that, of course, I have little doubt that Lewis would have beaten Bottas had he started on pole. And I agree that Bottas probably was driving well within himself. But I'd suggest Lewis wasn't, as he had to work at getting the best result possible, so with that framework in mind I don't think that Bottas did all that bad overall. All he had to beat was Max, and once he could see that Max was struggling, then he didn't haver to work all that hard. Lewis had to charge and contend with traffic, so very different strategies for both, making comparisons pretty difficult

Hamilton showed what was possible a bit more as he was more concerned about gaining positions, Bottas and company were on a different strat. Hams pace as well as post race comments from the top 3 suggest top 3 could have gone even quicker than they did.

Edited by ARTGP, 12 October 2021 - 16:04.

[Dutchrudder]

After Singapore upgrade it was like WTF is that??

Am I right to remember that there was a suspicious acceleration advantage coming and going at various points right back to summer 2018 though? And that it became crazy obvious towards the end of 19?

[ConsiderAndGo]

Am I right to remember that there was a suspicious acceleration advantage coming and going at various points right back to summer 2018 though? And that it became crazy obvious towards the end of 19?

Germany 2018 is when Merc started getting really irritated.

[Clrnc]

Or he should have stayed out. When you look at his laptimes before he pitted, they were still pretty decent. He only lost 1.022s to Perez in the last 2 laps before his pitstop.

With 8 laps to go and 10s avantage to Leclerc and 12s to Perez, I think he could have make it. (especially taking into account the graining Leclerc had). 

Problem is that the tyres would drop a massive cliff. 

Ocon tyres were close to puncture and he did 1 lap lesser than Hamilton...

[flyboym3]

Here you can really see the graining effect. It's absolutely crazy. Drivers were losing 4 seconds of performance in the graining phase.

Does anyone have the time to overlay ocons laptime profile onto hamiltons last 7 laps, excluding ocons outliers where he was a backmarker and had to let the leaders past.

And then calculate the gap to Leclerc and Perez.

It will put to bed who was right/wrong, though catching is one thing and passing on a single dry line is another...

Edited by flyboym3, 12 October 2021 - 19:30.

[FTB]

Apparently people had great difficulty getting to and from the circuit today. I read about busses on their way to the race were still stuck in traffic 3 hours after the race. 

 

Apparently the circuit had only one entrance/exit for 150k people.

https://twitter.com/...284277717184519

 

https://twitter.com/...308816014524417

https://twitter.com/...305195805941769

https://twitter.com/...291640255848450

https://twitter.com/...289447989514245

 

 

 

https://twitter.com/...289268771172358

 

 

https://twitter.com/...286933072265224

It was atrocious. Getting to the circuit was very hard. My friend exited the ring and walked to the circuit due to the traffic. Exiting the circuit was very hard too. Me and my friend stayed out a lot after the race ended to avoid the traffic when using the ring.

And the prices were ridiculous. 55 Lira for a terrible hamburger. And there were many people who didn't even know F1 that were invited because they are close to the government. Joke of an organization.