115 replies to this topic

[Beri]

In the state Williams is and have been for several many seasons teaming with them will doom the project, reflecting on to Honda as not being able to build an engine under the new regulations - McLaren the only sensible team to supply.

 

Considering from how far Williams had to come at a time where the team severely lacked in investment and thus upgrading its facilities, I think they have bounced back in a fantastic way. McLaren will go for RBPT, else the teams would never have opened up about it. Williams is a sound team for Honda to support. I just fear that they might underestimate it all again. And supplying one team doesnt open up nearly as much insight where to improve compared to the Red Bull and Toro Rosso/Alpha Tauri situation.

[KWSN - DSM]

Considering from how far Williams had to come at a time where the team severely lacked in investment and thus upgrading its facilities, I think they have bounced back in a fantastic way. McLaren will go for RBPT, else the teams would never have opened up about it. Williams is a sound team for Honda to support. I just fear that they might underestimate it all again. And supplying one team doesnt open up nearly as much insight where to improve compared to the Red Bull and Toro Rosso/Alpha Tauri situation.

 

I sort of agree, however th situation will be too many manufacturers battling for too few wins and championships, Williams have moved closer and up towards the rear of the field, small sample size, they may b equal with Alpha Tauri and Haas this season, none of those 3 have what is needed to be win and title contending teams, and that is what Honda and any of the other manufacturers need.

 

Audi, Ferrari, Mercedes, Honda, Red Bull, Alpine * 2 = some heavy questions from impatient boardrooms way to early for the project to be successful ==> You need to align with teams who can almost battle from day one.

[Beri]

The problem is that winning these days can be confined into finding half a second somewhere. Look at Q1 at Bahrain; the entire field sat in only 0.9s. Best laptimes of the race were stretched. But looking at the pit window around lap 40 and picking those best times, drivers were only 2 seconds apart from one another. This is a totally different time compared to some decades ago where one could qualify in 1st with a margin of over 2 seconds to the number 5 or 6 on the grid. During the race differences were even greater. Those days are gone. These days the margin is so fine that even the worst team is doing an absolute stunner of a job.

[SenorSjon]

The problem is that winning these days can be confined into finding half a second somewhere. Look at Q1 at Bahrain; the entire field sat in only 0.9s. Best laptimes of the race were stretched. But looking at the pit window around lap 40 and picking those best times, drivers were only 2 seconds apart from one another. This is a totally different time compared to some decades ago where one could qualify in 1st with a margin of over 2 seconds to the number 5 or 6 on the grid. During the race differences were even greater. Those days are gone. These days the margin is so fine that even the worst team is doing an absolute stunner of a job.

 

Then the team wasn't controlled by a mission control base looking at every variable. And new race, new stuff instead of having to use two batteries for the whole season. Also, the liberal use of the SC will increase the need for winning as slow as possible. Not by a minute.

[chrcol]

Have they considered reintroducing mixed engine modes during races or they still want to keep it dumbed down?

[danmills]

Would Aston beating the Works Mercedes team sour the relationship? 

 

Honda works Aston Martin. Delicious. That setup would go places Red Bull have done with LS investment commitment. 

 

I think Toto is too deep politically and financially with AM.

 

Another reason teams should not be invested or influenced across other teams like this. 

Edited by danmills, 08 March 2023 - 22:12.

[ARTGP]

All of a sudden, Honda and Aston Martin looks a good bet

I’m not sure how that works in terms of being rivals in the car world… but they could make a mega team there, especially with the new factory.

 

Not happening. Mercedes is an Aston Martin shareholder. 

Edited by ARTGP, 08 March 2023 - 23:47.

[Anja]

Aston Martin + Honda rumours intensify: https://the-race.com...h-aston-martin/

[SenorSjon]

Have they considered reintroducing mixed engine modes during races or they still want to keep it dumbed down?

 

It was more to prevent the main engine team from getting better engine modes than their customers. And of course the hyperdrive in the Mercs for Q3.

[MattK9]

Aston Martin + Honda rumours intensify: https://the-race.com...h-aston-martin/

 

Does anyone really believe Honda wont just leave again in 2030 when they havent won anything with Aston Martin

[KWSN - DSM]

Does anyone really believe Honda wont just leave again in 2030 when they havent won anything with Aston Martin

 

I am close to 100% certain Honda will as usual not stick around.

[Laster]

Does anyone really believe Honda wont just leave again in 2030 when they havent won anything with Aston Martin

Ah but then in 2031 Aston Martin will win the championship.

[lustigson]

Not happening. Mercedes is an Aston Martin shareholder. 

 

But the Formula One team is a separate entity that's not even owned by Aston Martin, or is it?

[William Hunt]

Aston Martin with Honda makes the most sense. If Aston Martin wants to beat Mercedes in the long term they need to have another factory engine.

 

Teams like Mercedes, Audi, Ferrari, Red Bull actually need more teams in F1: to place their junior drivers but also to have more votes on rules issues so Horner & Wolff in particular are stupid to try to block new teams because they would benefit from it and they don't need the tiny litle more income (tiny for them, not tiny for teams like Williams or Haas).

 

Let's look at the current and potential new teams possible engine deals:

 

Red Bull - Ford

AlphaTauri - Ford

Ferrari - Ferrari

Haas-Ferrari
Mercedes - Mercedes

Sauber - Audi (will the name Sauber still be used? don't know)
Alpine - Renault

 

Aston Martin - Honda

McLaren - Mercedes  or Audi?

Williams - Mercedes   (they have a former Mercedes guy as team boss now with Vowles)

 

Andretti - Renault    (later, '27-'28, possible Cadillac manufactured engine, Andretti might join in '25)

Formula Equal - Mercedes or Honda    (Pollock has ties with Honda as former BAR-Honda team boss)

Lucky Sunz - Honda or Hyundai or Nissan badged Renault (This is the former Panthera project, they will surely prefer an Asian engine, maybe Hyundai also commits)
Hitech - Ford    (Hitech is currently running Red Bull Juniors so they have a relationship with Red Bull and they would like a customer)
Rodin Carlin - Ford or Mercedes     (Carlin has been running Red Bull Juniors too in the past, Mercedes will want another customer if they lose Aston Martin)

Monaco - Renault  (this seems the least serious project to me, they plan to run the team from the Campos F2 base I believe)

 

If we assume that 2 new teams will be added then I believe Andretti will be for sure amongst them. Up to 3 teams may even be added. 

 

Right now AlphaTauri & Haas seem the only two teams that certainly will run with a second engine from a manufacturer (AlphaTauri the Red Bull Power Train Ford and Haas the Ferrari). Andretti, most likely to join, will run a second Renault engine then (that could change in a factory Cadilac engine later). AlphaTauri running Ford is off course logical since it's a Red Bull owned team so it's not an independent customer team paying for the engine.

 

With Aston Martin looking more and more likely to become a Honda factory partner that only leaves McLaren and Williams as potential customer engine teams. And McLaren & Williams most likely won't be running junior drivers from bigger manufacturer teams like Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault (Alpine) or Audi (Sauber) since Williams have their own Junior program and McLaren is starting one up (they have Ugochukwu and IndyCar drivers O'Ward & Palou now but plan to expand that program, they hired Emanuele Pirro recently for that).

 

So conclusion is that the big teams really need more, new, smaller teams in F1 to supply them a customer engine ( = more engine data + income from selling the engine), to be able to place juniors there (Alpine could already place 1 junior at Andretti if they are allowed in) and to have more influence in F1 on rules voting.

 

Where are teams like Mercedes, Ferrari (Haas may prefer an experienced driver instead of a Ferrari rookie), Red Bull (if AlphaTauri is filled up) or Audi (surely they will expand Sauber's current junior program) going to place their junior drivers in the future?

Mercedes has a massive talent, Max Verstappen - Charles Leclerc level of talent imho, with Andrea Kimi Antonelli but... he is currently in F. Regional Europe and of everything goes according to plan he should do F3 in 2024 and F2 in 2025. So he could already be ready for F1 in 2026 but Mercedes (like Ferrari) never hires a rookie, they always want their junior to gain at least one year (like Leclerc at Saube) or more years (Russell at Williams) at another, smaller team.

But which other team is willing to "prepare" a driver for a rival (top) team? Williams not anymore, they have their own Junior program now. Haas maybe for Ferrari (but Haas prefers experienced drivers) and Andretti maybe for Alpine. McLaren doesn't prepare drivers for other teams.
Conclusion: Mercedes has a problem there. Ferrari possibly too and Audi certainly.

Edited by William Hunt, 11 May 2023 - 02:15.

[Joseki]

If Honda wants to come back in F1 the options on the table are the following:

 

- 11th team

- Aston Martin

- McLaren

- Williams

 

Realistically Aston Martin is by far the best bet. The money, facilities and top quality staff is there.

[ARTGP]

But the Formula One team is a separate entity that's not even owned by Aston Martin, or is it?

I stand corrected on that. It’s just a heavy sponsorship agreement and Stroll has shown more signs that he doesn’t really care about the minuscule Merc investment.