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When Pole Position is not Pole Position…


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#1 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 16 October 2021 - 15:09

https://www.motorspo...debate/6687294/

Where do we stand on this? I think it’s correct that the guy who’s fastest should stay in the record books as winning pole. Not in the situation where they’ve done something untoward like Schumacher at Monaco… although I guess the argument could be that a brand new engine gives you a potentially unfair advantage to grab that Pole.

Still think it’s strange though to think that in the history books someone else gets the Pole stat but could have qualified 2nd or 3rd depending on how many folk have incurred penalties.

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#2 PlatenGlass

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Posted 16 October 2021 - 15:16

Whether you call it pole or not, it makes sense to record who is the winner of the timed qualifying, and keep statistics for that. Schumacher at Monaco 2006 would not count because I think he had his times deleted. Schumacher at Monaco in 2012 (plus all those with engine/gearbox penalties) would count because the penalty was applied outside of the actual qualifying session. It didn't change who "won" qualifying.

 

The person who wins qualifying is still interviewed as if they are the winner, so I suppose that's a "rule of thumb" way of seeing who won. Obviously if the disqualification comes afterwards (such as Schumacher in 2006) then it's not quite as simple but in most cases it works.


Edited by PlatenGlass, 16 October 2021 - 15:16.


#3 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 16 October 2021 - 15:19

I think it really comes down to, did anything happen to disqualify your fastest lap? Which is different from your grid position. If not, you get the pole stat. 

 

You went fastest in qualifying but took a grid drop from an infraction carried over from a previous event, you get pole.

You went fastest but take a grid drop for some sort of in-qualifying penalty. Lack of fuel, blocking, whatever. You don't get pole.

Engine/gearbox changes ahead of qualifying? Ehhhh, that's tricky. 

Fastest in qualifying but second in the sprint race? You got pole. 

 

Schumacher has pole for France 96 right(car blew up on way to grid) and Trulli at Indy 2005(famously some cars failed to take the start)?

 

What if you set a track record on your pole lap(or are records only set in the race or something?). Could you lose pole but keep the record?

 

It's really a question of is Pole Position a starting position or a qualifying result. How many times have you gone fastest in qualifying vs how many times have you started the race in first place. Schumacher96/Trulli05 should give us an idea.


Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 16 October 2021 - 15:21.


#4 Stephane

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Posted 16 October 2021 - 15:41

What's important is who wins the race on Sunday. Don't bother with useless statistical headaches

#5 garoidb

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Posted 16 October 2021 - 15:43

I think it really comes down to, did anything happen to disqualify your fastest lap? Which is different from your grid position. If not, you get the pole stat. 

 

You went fastest in qualifying but took a grid drop from an infraction carried over from a previous event, you get pole.

You went fastest but take a grid drop for some sort of in-qualifying penalty. Lack of fuel, blocking, whatever. You don't get pole.

Engine/gearbox changes ahead of qualifying? Ehhhh, that's tricky. 

Fastest in qualifying but second in the sprint race? You got pole. 

 

Schumacher has pole for France 96 right(car blew up on way to grid) and Trulli at Indy 2005(famously some cars failed to take the start)?

 

What if you set a track record on your pole lap(or are records only set in the race or something?). Could you lose pole but keep the record?

 

It's really a question of is Pole Position a starting position or a qualifying result. How many times have you gone fastest in qualifying vs how many times have you started the race in first place. Schumacher96/Trulli05 should give us an idea.

 

It is literally a position on the starting grid, of course, and I think that meaning is too established for it to change. However, people are more interested in keeping stats for the results of the qualifying competition (disregarding, as you say, penalties carried over from previous sessions or events). That's not pole position and it needs a new and more literally correct name. The sprint race format complicates this too, as it is a qualifying competition but not the traditional one. So, we will now have to split this into two separate sets of statistics. Honestly, I don't see this as a problem as those who are interested in qualifying for its own sake tend to love statistics anyway.  :)​ 



#6 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 October 2021 - 15:45

In the words of Martin Brundle: "It's a pretty short debate, Murray."

 

More importantly, please use the search function before starting a new thread: https://forums.autos...pole-statistic/