106 replies to this topic

[JordanIreland]

I recently came across some YT videos and noticed how at the heat of the moment that some drivers would break test the drivers behind them:

 

Mark Blundell breaking testing Rubens Barrichello (from 8:22 onwards):

https://www.youtube....KEl6cdl0&t=524s

It’s odd to hear the commentators criticise Rubens for not being tough enough, even though Mark just did a break test in an acceleration zone.

 

Fernando Alonso breaking testing Robert Doornbos:

https://www.youtube....h?v=J650I-fdwbA

 

Its such a poor thing to do and reflects really badly on the driver conducting the break testing.

 

I’m curious given the level of GPS data, etc that the race stewards have access to in current F1 and other race categories, would a driver try to break test today?

 

I haven’t seen it in a long time.

[basimi]

Hamilton Vettel incident in Baku. Not taking any sides here. ;-)

[Rodaknee]

No one will get away with it now.  The FIA have the technology.

[MortenF1]

Alonso on DC, Nürburgring ‘03.

[Loosenut]

First time I ever heard of it was Monaco 1992. Mansell said that Senna brake tested him.

[ARTGP]

It's not like the mirrors are functional these days anyway....You can't brake check what you can't see. 

[Ross Stonefeld]

Every F1 race I've ever seen is proof they know when there is a car behind them.

[PayasYouRace]

It's not like the mirrors are functional these days anyway....You can't brake check what you can't see. 

Watch the helmet camera stuff and you’ll see how effective the mirrors are. The Gasly at Monaco one is particularly good. As Ross says, the way drivers defend from each other proves they can see just fine. The old “can barely see anything in the mirrors” excuse doesn’t hold water any more.

[as65p]

Alonso on DC, Nürburgring ‘03.

Proven by Renault telemetry to only happening in DC's head.

[noikeee]

I don't know how common it was, but I find it a particularly despicable dirty move.

[danmills]

The 95 Jordan was absolutely stunning, dated compared to the rest of the safety directed high nosed cars. 

[P123]

Villeneuve brake tested Montoya in Canadian GP practice back in 2001, and crashed the following lap, probably from damage sustained when JPM ran into the back of him.  I think it led to a bit of a head to head in the driver briefing between them.

[PayasYouRace]

The 95 Jordan was absolutely stunning, dated compared to the rest of the safety directed high nosed cars. 

The nose heights back then had nothing to do with safety directives. It was just the designers’ choices of aerodynamic configuration.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think we need to differentiate between brake testing, which Alonso definitely did on Doornbos with sort of....parking the car at the apex and screwing up the momentum of the car behind.

[nivoglibina]

Parking at the apex to kill momentum happens quite often, would you call that a brake check? I thought that's just smart racing, not something punishable?

[noikeee]

Parking at the apex is something very different indeed.

[as65p]

I think we need to differentiate between brake testing, which Alonso definitely did on Doornbos with sort of....parking the car at the apex and screwing up the momentum of the car behind.

That was one of the rare cases when intent and execution where plain to see. A punishable offense and Alonso did get punished (despite Doornbos declaring he had no problem with it).

 

I think it's more about the subtle stuff that may go on in races, and how (legally) blocking the apex going a bit slow and (illegally) brake testing is often hard to differentiate. Also, already going off the gas at strange places may already be considered a "brake test" in F1 despite the actual brake pedal not being touched.

[Peat]

Hanging on an apex is totally legitimate. It comes with quite alot of risk to the defender too, 

I had never seen that Barrichello/Blundell fight beyond what was on the 1995 Season Review video. I always had it down as (perhaps driven by the narrative of the vid) that it was Barrichello being impetuous, but seeing it with 25yrs of hindsight I can see that Rubens didn't throw his steering wheel at disgust in himself.... Blundell was driving outrageously by modern standards. @8:22 - I've seen many instances of parking on apexes, but never to the extent that the following driver has to lock up to avoid it. Moving under braking was the final nail. 

[potmotr]

Mansell on Senna, Adelaide 1992! 

 

https://youtu.be/mAJIO-0p0iM?t=261

[ANF]

I had never seen that Barrichello/Blundell fight beyond what was on the 1995 Season Review video. I always had it down as (perhaps driven by the narrative of the vid) that it was Barrichello being impetuous, but seeing it with 25yrs of hindsight I can see that Rubens didn't throw his steering wheel at disgust in himself.... Blundell was driving outrageously by modern standards. @8:22 - I've seen many instances of parking on apexes, but never to the extent that the following driver has to lock up to avoid it. Moving under braking was the final nail.

Here's Blundell taking the chequered flag and replays of the crash: https://youtu.be/EQRan65ACzw?t=193

[Jon83]

Did Alonso and Schumacher not have a bit of this is a practice session (possibly in Hungary?) in 2006?

[CSF]

Mansell on Senna, Adelaide 1992! 

 

https://youtu.be/mAJIO-0p0iM?t=261

 

That was all Senna. 

[as65p]

That was all Senna. 

Sure Nige.

[potmotr]

That was all Senna. 

 

I always found it weird that Senna could make a mistake of that magnitude given he'd been sitting on Mansell's gearbox for the whole race....

 

...unless something unexpected happened in front of him.

[swintex]

Mansell on Senna, Adelaide 1992! 

 

https://youtu.be/mAJIO-0p0iM?t=261

I'm sure I remember reading a Patrick Head quote along the lines of Mansell maybe "failing to accelerate."

[Nemo1965]

A version that happens more often than I always thought, was either the congratulatory bump from behind (not really a braketest, okay) or punishing one. Mark Donohue tells in his autobiography that Roger Penske once tried give him a friendly bump with his car from behind and accidentally knocked the car of Mark into gear and into a spin in the pits.

Huub Rothengatter, Jos Verstappen’ erstwhile manager, Formula 2 winner and Formula 1 driver himself, once told me that he had just done a qualifying lap in the very meager Spirit Formula One car and he was so happy with himself that he had not noticed he had gotten in the way of Keke Rosberg. So at the first opportunity, Keke overtook him and gave him a full brake test.

Considering the fact that Huub actually had to laugh about that memory, shows me that at least in the past a braketest for another driver when you were pissed off, was not so uncommon.

Edited by Nemo1965, 27 October 2021 - 14:11.

[Ross Stonefeld]

That's basically road rage, because you're lucky the guy behind doesn't wipe out both your cars. 

[JordanIreland]

Here's Blundell taking the chequered flag and replays of the crash: https://youtu.be/EQRan65ACzw?t=193

I’m guessing that the commentators were biased towards Mark, they really didn’t feel he did anything wrong. Shocking to be honest.

[JordanIreland]

Did Alonso and Schumacher not have a bit of this is a practice session (possibly in Hungary?) in 2006?

I could be wrong, but I think it was more of them trying to get a clear lap: https://youtu.be/Dn2DltgcxjA

Edited by JordanIreland, 27 October 2021 - 15:15.

[ARTGP]

Watch the helmet camera stuff and you’ll see how effective the mirrors are. The Gasly at Monaco one is particularly good. As Ross says, the way drivers defend from each other proves they can see just fine. The old “can barely see anything in the mirrors” excuse doesn’t hold water any more.

 

  I'm glad that this has been pointed out as it calls certain other behaviors into question....a

Edited by ARTGP, 27 October 2021 - 15:25.

[JordanIreland]

I'm sure I remember reading a Patrick Head quote along the lines of Mansell maybe "failing to accelerate."

Summary of the crash: https://www.google.i.../9470721198800/

It would be great to see the telemetry from both cars… to see who really was a fault.

[genius83]

Alonso/Hamilton Bahrain 2008 was certainly one.

[ARTGP]

Alonso/Hamilton Hungary 2007 was one 

[JordanIreland]

Alonso/Hamilton Bahrain 2008 was certainly one.

Is this the incident you are referring too?
https://youtu.be/gV0-Vm8k4_8

Or was there about altercation at that event?

[genius83]

Is this the incident you are referring too?
https://youtu.be/gV0-Vm8k4_8

Or was there about altercation at that event?

Yes, this is the one.

[PlatenGlass]

I'm sure I remember reading a Patrick Head quote along the lines of Mansell maybe "failing to accelerate."

They were approachng the final hairpin. It was a braking zone. It's possible he started braking slightly earlier than usual of course, but Patrick Head is full of BS in any case.

[scheivlak]

First one I remembered was Monaco 2005 FP when Montoya brake tested Ralf, and Coulthard and Villenueve ran into them subsequently  https://f1tv.formula...n-review-monaco

[TomNokoe]

Alonso on Hamilton, Turn 4, Brazil 2007?

[JordanIreland]

Yes, this is the one.

I’m not 100% sure that was break testing. This text is from Wikipedia:

Hamilton accepted responsibility for his near stall on the grid: "I hadn't hit the switch early enough and therefore we were not in the launch map and went straight into anti-stall, and when everyone else was in their launch mode, I wasn't."[27] Renault dismissed suggestions that Alonso had brake tested Hamilton in the incident that led to the McLaren's wing breaking off.[33] Pat Symonds, Renault's head of engineering, said his team's telemetry indicated Alonso was on full throttle down the straight, and had not touched the brakes: "I think all I can say from our side is that there is no blame attributable to Fernando, which is what some of the speculation might be."[33] McLaren F1 CEO Martin Whitmarsh said that Hamilton's front wing had broken seconds before the impact, and that the resulting downforce reduction had sucked Hamilton into Alonso's slipstream faster than expected.[28] However, photos indicate that the front wing on the McLaren could have broken even earlier when Hamilton nudged a car (believed to be Alonso) on the opening lap.[28] The later incident left Alonso with damage to the back of the car, impairing his attempts to pass Glock late in the race.[34]

He seems to be Hamilton who caused the impact.

[JordanIreland]

Alonso on Hamilton, Turn 4, Brazil 2007?

I forgot about this one, it does look a bit suspicious: https://youtu.be/m6kiPFOpFTM

It’s so subtle, it’s hard to tell.

It’s not as obvious as Blundell in silverstone in 1995 😂😂

[as65p]

Alonso on Hamilton, Turn 4, Brazil 2007?

Yeah, plus the Hungary pit box of course. Alonso even braked to a standstill there!

[danmills]

Is there a reason F1 cars don't fit brake lights of some form, aside the obvious distraction argument?

 

From a fan perspective without telemetry, LEDs on the airbox top might be interesting. Unobtrusive to drivers, obvious to fans.

 

Like in the US where they also show a digitised running position of the airbox sides. 

Edited by danmills, 27 October 2021 - 17:53.

[ANF]

Is this the incident you are referring too?
https://youtu.be/gV0-Vm8k4_8

Or was there about altercation at that event?

 

I’m not 100% sure that was break testing. This text is from Wikipedia:

Hamilton accepted responsibility for his near stall on the grid: "I hadn't hit the switch early enough and therefore we were not in the launch map and went straight into anti-stall, and when everyone else was in their launch mode, I wasn't."[27] Renault dismissed suggestions that Alonso had brake tested Hamilton in the incident that led to the McLaren's wing breaking off.[33] Pat Symonds, Renault's head of engineering, said his team's telemetry indicated Alonso was on full throttle down the straight, and had not touched the brakes: "I think all I can say from our side is that there is no blame attributable to Fernando, which is what some of the speculation might be."[33] McLaren F1 CEO Martin Whitmarsh said that Hamilton's front wing had broken seconds before the impact, and that the resulting downforce reduction had sucked Hamilton into Alonso's slipstream faster than expected.[28] However, photos indicate that the front wing on the McLaren could have broken even earlier when Hamilton nudged a car (believed to be Alonso) on the opening lap.[28] The later incident left Alonso with damage to the back of the car, impairing his attempts to pass Glock late in the race.[34]

He seems to be Hamilton who caused the impact.

Alonso wasn't braking, but I think it's clear from Hamilton's onboard that Alonso had started moving over to the right before they touched. Alonso was going to cut across the track to cover the inside line before Turn 4. So as Hamilton pulled out of Alonso's slipstream, Alonso moved in the same direction and there was contact.

Edited by ANF, 27 October 2021 - 17:52.

[ARTGP]

Is there a reason F1 cars don't fit brake lights of some form, aside the obvious distraction argument?

 

From a fan perspective without telemetry, LEDs on the airbox top might be interesting. Unobtrusive to drivers, obvious to fans.

 

Like in the US where they also show a digitised running position of the airbox sides. 

 

They more or less already have them this point. Those flashing lights on the rear wing are the "harvesting" lights. The car more or less will always "harvest" energy on the MGU-K when brakes are applied. 

Edited by ARTGP, 27 October 2021 - 18:04.

[as65p]

Is there a reason F1 cars don't fit brake lights of some form, aside the obvious distraction argument?

 

From a fan perspective without telemetry, LEDs on the airbox top might be interesting. Unobtrusive to drivers, obvious to fans.

 

Like in the US where they also show a digitised running position of the airbox sides. 

Sorry, but: meh.

 

Realistically though I wouldn't put it past Liberty at all.

[as65p]

They more or less already have them this point. Those flashing lights on the rear wing are the "harvesting" lights. The car more or less will always "harvest" energy on the MGU-K when brakes are applied. 

 

I think a driver can still chose to harvest or not, also brake performance will only be at maximum without harvesting, so those lights as indicators may not work at precisely the most interesting moments.

 

Someone please correct me if I got this technically wrong.
 

[ARTGP]

I forgot about this one, it does look a bit suspicious: https://youtu.be/m6kiPFOpFTM

It’s so subtle, it’s hard to tell.

It’s not as obvious as Blundell in silverstone in 1995

 

This isn't what I would call "brake testing". Either Alonso had no clue, and was only backing off so the front end didn't wash out in Massa's wake, or he was parking on the Apex a bit to stall Hamilton's momentum as Alonso himself had a compromised entry. 

 

Brake testing, imo, is braking out of rage. "Road rage". It has no purpose other than to antagonize the other driver.

Edited by ARTGP, 27 October 2021 - 18:23.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Yeah I don't even think Alonso lifts there, that was just two guys running into each other.

[prty]

Alonso on DC, Nürburgring ‘03.

Alonso/Hamilton Bahrain 2008 was certainly one.

Using the same criteria as the examples you provided, here is the whole field brake testing Alesi:

 

[JHSingo]

Well, it still happens a lot on racing games.