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Merc vs RB - Which is the fastest car? Now with four races to go!


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Poll: Which car is faster in 2021? (318 member(s) have cast votes)

Which car do you think is faster?

  1. Mercedes-Benz W12 (136 votes [42.77%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.77%

  2. Red Bull RB16B (94 votes [29.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.56%

  3. Too close to call (88 votes [27.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.67%

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#1 PayasYouRace

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 19:12

The last poll was first posed in June, so it would be interesting to see how opinion has changed overall. Discussion to continue from the original thread.



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#2 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 19:22

how is that saying? you're as good as your last race? 



#3 Ivanhoe

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 19:22

I voted the same (too close to call). Still think it is track dependent. Red Bull may have the edge in the America’s but it might be roles reversed in the Middle East. I will not count out Mercedes/Lewis until the moment it’s mathematically impossible for them to take the WDC/WCC.



#4 alframsey

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 19:28

I voted RBR as I think, over the season, they have been able to more easily extract pass from their car while Merc seems much more 'spikey'. It isn't all that big a difference though, but enough to be able to make a choice.



#5 InfamousArrows

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 19:39

Art this point Merc have the faster car. If they redid the season with the cars as they currently are, and the operational teams would swap, Merc would walk it home.

#6 Anuity

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 20:01

Mercedes hands down. It has been more adaptable, faster and predictable across all kind of tracks. And is still within striking distance of taking both championships despite numerous driver and team errors.

you swap drivers between two teams and it would be another Mercedes festival with both titles all but secured by now.



#7 alframsey

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 20:02

Art this point Merc have the faster car. If they redid the season with the cars as they currently are, and the operational teams would swap, Merc would walk it home.

I just do not agree. That RBR more often than the MErc just hits that sweet spot every single time, they have never had a weekend completely out of shape. Merc have. The time comes much easier to my eyes than the Merc.



#8 alframsey

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 20:04

Mercedes hands down. It has been more adaptable, faster and predictable across all kind of tracks. And is still within striking distance of taking both championships despite numerous driver and team errors.

you swap drivers between two teams and it would be another Mercedes festival with both titles all but secured by now.

You have to be kidding



#9 MKSixer

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 20:09

Art this point Merc have the faster car. If they redid the season with the cars as they currently are, and the operational teams would swap, Merc would walk it home.

Yes.  The 14+ second victory definitely validates this view.   :drunk:   :drunk:   :drunk:



#10 Requiem84

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 20:16

Yes. The 14+ second victory definitely validates this view. :drunk: :drunk: :drunk:


It’s easy to forget the Barcelona victory by Mercedes (15+ seconds) or Portimao (29 secobds, but extra stop of course).

#11 tourister46a

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 20:18

and the 14+ second victory by Bottas in Turkey



#12 Marklar

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 20:20

i do think that RB holds perhaps a tiny edge over the year so far but I cant see how you can not vote for too close to call

Edited by Marklar, 08 November 2021 - 20:21.


#13 ARTGP

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 20:21

and the 14+ second victory by Bottas in wet Turkey

 

for emphasis  :lol: .

 

Each team has had "their tracks" and that's felt 50/50. Only one of them actually delivered the goods consistently on "their tracks".


Edited by ARTGP, 08 November 2021 - 20:23.


#14 P123

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 20:21

Almost too close to call.  It should be advantage Red Bull in Brazil... Qatar should be close?  Maybe.  And Saudi is an unknown as well as AD with it's new configuration.



#15 Heyli

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 20:37

i do think that RB holds perhaps a tiny edge over the year so far but I cant see how you can not vote for too close to call

9 poles for Max and only 3 for Hamilton obviously!



#16 Bliman

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 20:46

Lets give the data:

Pole positions 9 for Red Bull vs 6 Mercedes

Wins 10 for Red Bull vs 6 for Mercedes

Laps led 569 for Max and 154 for Hamilton

Km led Max 2573 km and 822 km for Hamilton



#17 ARTGP

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 20:54

Lets give the data:

Pole positions 9 for Red Bull vs 6 Mercedes

Wins 10 for Red Bull vs 6 for Mercedes

Laps led 569 for Max and 154 for Hamilton

Km led Max 2573 km and 822 km for Hamilton

 

Context is key. This thread is about car performance, not team performance and reliability performance. Your data conflates all of the factors. Merc should have had 3-4 more wins based on performance, but don't because they took engine penalties or made bad calls instead.


Edited by ARTGP, 08 November 2021 - 20:56.


#18 Ivanhoe

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 20:56

Lets give the data:

Pole positions 9 for Red Bull vs 6 Mercedes

Wins 10 for Red Bull vs 6 for Mercedes

Laps led 569 for Max and 154 for Hamilton

Km led Max 2573 km and 822 km for Hamilton

Fastest qualifying lap 8 for Mercedes vs 7 for Red Bull

Your win data include Hungary and Turkey where Mercedes clearly had the fastest car.

 

And what the hell is the difference between laps led and km’s led, lol



#19 f1paul

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 21:00

Lets give the data:

Pole positions 9 for Red Bull vs 6 Mercedes

Wins 10 for Red Bull vs 6 for Mercedes

Laps led 569 for Max and 154 for Hamilton

Km led Max 2573 km and 822 km for Hamilton

 

Just a note, for pole positions, two of Verstappen's were at Silverstone and Monza which were the Sprint Qualifying. He was slower in the normal qualifying. So it should really be 7-8 for qualifying.



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#20 GentlemanDriver091

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 21:01

Lets give the data:
Pole positions 9 for Red Bull vs 6 Mercedes
Wins 10 for Red Bull vs 6 for Mercedes
Laps led 569 for Max and 154 for Hamilton
Km led Max 2573 km and 822 km for Hamilton

If you count the sprint races wins as pole positions your correct, but based on real qualifying this number is not resembling the truth.

#21 Requiem84

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 21:14

Lets give the data:
Pole positions 9 for Red Bull vs 6 Mercedes
Wins 10 for Red Bull vs 6 for Mercedes
Laps led 569 for Max and 154 for Hamilton
Km led Max 2573 km and 822 km for Hamilton


Let’s assume Hamilton would not have pressed the ‘autodestruct’ button in Baku and that he would have entered the pots in Hungary instead of being the only driver on the grid with the wrong tires - suddenly it’s 2 more victories for Mercedes.

Victories Mercedes lost due to driver and operational errors. Not to mention Monza.

You are confusing driver and team performance with the ‘fastest car’.

Not to mention the skewed pole position data :(.

#22 Goron3

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 21:20

Bahrain is the last time I genuinely remember Max and RB failing to maximise the performance of the car. Even then he lost just 7 points to Lewis.

Lewis and Mercedes have dropped points at Imola, Monaco, Baku, France, Monza and Turkey.

Baku and Monza alone were 53 points lost to Max. The car is irrelevant when the package isn't being exploited.

Mercedes need to drastically improve next year if the pack is closer.

#23 Scotracer

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 21:24

I voted RB16B but it's very close. And I'm ready for the last 3 races to go to Merc...

#24 Laptom

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 21:24

Lets give the data:
Pole positions 9 for Red Bull vs 6 Mercedes
Wins 10 for Red Bull vs 6 for Mercedes
Laps led 569 for Max and 154 for Hamilton
Km led Max 2573 km and 822 km for Hamilton


A bit of colored data...

#25 InfamousArrows

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 21:26

Lets give the data:
Pole positions 9 for Red Bull vs 6 Mercedes
Wins 10 for Red Bull vs 6 for Mercedes
Laps led 569 for Max and 154 for Hamilton
Km led Max 2573 km and 822 km for Hamilton

If you expect to be taking seriously than tell the whole story. Don’t just ‘give the data’ when you know its a very poor indicator of car performance.

#26 InfamousArrows

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 21:27

Yes. The 14+ second victory definitely validates this view. :drunk: :drunk: :drunk:

Almost as if … there’s something different about Mexico!

#27 mclara

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 21:36

It’s easy to forget the Barcelona victory by Mercedes (15+ seconds) or Portimao (29 secobds, but extra stop of course).

To follow up on the closed thread.

Yes we are obviously talking about car performance but you cant talk about strategy when it suits you but dismiss it when it doesnt.

I have already explained why pitting early was not a good option for Mercedes at Austin at the time of decision.
Lewis had already done his part but it wasnt enough.

 

And to add to your point in Mexico; the fact that Perez was all over the back of Lewis shows that the Red Bull was the faster car if we are to apply the same Max vs Bottas standard.

I dont see the point of going into alot of ifs and buts about strategy etc..


Edited by mclara, 08 November 2021 - 21:36.


#28 Gareth

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 21:40

Overall for the season I think RBR, just. But it’s super tight and at most by a really small margin.

#29 Anuity

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 21:48

Lets give the data:

Pole positions 9 for Red Bull vs 6 Mercedes

Wins 10 for Red Bull vs 6 for Mercedes

Laps led 569 for Max and 154 for Hamilton

Km led Max 2573 km and 822 km for Hamilton

With gaps often so close, these stats don’t say much.

you cannot compare cars only in this context. The driver is starting to make a difference when it’s that close between the teams. 
Especially when one is declining and the other one is entering his absolute best. Lewis from 15-18 would likely do better in this years Mercedes, so stats would look better as well.



#30 P123

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 21:48

Let’s assume Hamilton would not have pressed the ‘autodestruct’ button in Baku and that he would have entered the pots in Hungary instead of being the only driver on the grid with the wrong tires - suddenly it’s 2 more victories for Mercedes.

Victories Mercedes lost due to driver and operational errors. Not to mention Monza.

You are confusing driver and team performance with the ‘fastest car’.

Not to mention the skewed pole position data :(.

 

It's not all skewed one way though. And even in Baku it was not the fastest car.  Just be happy that Hamilton's finger did present a nice blow softening gift that day. :)



#31 ARTGP

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 21:52

Let’s assume Hamilton would not have pressed the ‘autodestruct’ button in Baku and that he would have entered the pots in Hungary instead of being the only driver on the grid with the wrong tires - suddenly it’s 2 more victories for Mercedes.

Victories Mercedes lost due to driver and operational errors. Not to mention Monza.

You are confusing driver and team performance with the ‘fastest car’.

Not to mention the skewed pole position data :(.

 

I don't like to give Merc Baku, because Max was the one to beat and that one belongs to him. 

 

It's Monza, Turkey, Hungary that belonged to Lewis/Merc and that's 3 wins that were not obtained when they should have been.  Lewis would have done in Turkey/Monza what Max did in Mexico if he led lap 1. A beat down. But for one reason or another those commanding victories were not seized by Lewis/Merc. 


Edited by ARTGP, 08 November 2021 - 21:55.


#32 Bliman

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 21:57

Fastest qualifying lap 8 for Mercedes vs 7 for Red Bull

Your win data include Hungary and Turkey where Mercedes clearly had the fastest car.

 

And what the hell is the difference between laps led and km’s led, lol

I didn't expect this much reaction on it. It is just the raw data.

You can find it here https://www.statsf1....ur-en-tete.aspx

Also what is difficult to understand about the amount of laps led in the races?

So you all seem to be saying you cannot learn anything from the raw data and it is all irrelevant.

I thought it was interesting and maybe more revealing but it seems to do the opposite :well:



#33 Bliman

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 21:59

Context is key. This thread is about car performance, not team performance and reliability performance. Your data conflates all of the factors. Merc should have had 3-4 more wins based on performance, but don't because they took engine penalties or made bad calls instead.

How many more races could Red Bull win. At least 3 as well then.



#34 Bliman

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 22:00

Just a note, for pole positions, two of Verstappen's were at Silverstone and Monza which were the Sprint Qualifying. He was slower in the normal qualifying. So it should really be 7-8 for qualifying.

How does FIA define pole positions? I thought they handled the sprint races as pole position, no?



#35 PayasYouRace

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 22:00

 

And what the hell is the difference between laps led and km’s led, lol

That’s the classic technique known as padding. Repeating the same information to make it sound like more.



#36 Bliman

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 22:02

Let’s assume Hamilton would not have pressed the ‘autodestruct’ button in Baku and that he would have entered the pots in Hungary instead of being the only driver on the grid with the wrong tires - suddenly it’s 2 more victories for Mercedes.

Victories Mercedes lost due to driver and operational errors. Not to mention Monza.

You are confusing driver and team performance with the ‘fastest car’.

Not to mention the skewed pole position data :(.

Yeah lets also assume that Max his tire wouldn't blow up. That is a game all can play. What if he wouldn't been hit in Silverstone. That are two wins there.



#37 Bliman

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 22:04

That’s the classic technique known as padding. Repeating the same information to make it sound like more.

Huh. I don't understand. Is that a metric that doesn't count. If we would search how many laps Mercedes led the last years wouldn't that give useful information in the strength of the car? I gave that information because it was on the stats website.



#38 Bliman

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 22:05

A bit of colored data...

Is this a biased site https://www.statsf1....en/default.aspx ?



#39 Ivanhoe

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 22:10

Is this a biased site https://www.statsf1....en/default.aspx ?

Stats are not biased, they never tell the whole story though.



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#40 Bliman

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 22:11

If you expect to be taking seriously than tell the whole story. Don’t just ‘give the data’ when you know its a very poor indicator of car performance.

Sorry but we have Requiem 84 who always hammers on the fact that the data is important. I then saw the stat of laps led in a race when they were showing the race and I thought this is interesting. So I thought to myself I look it up and found the stats site. I thought it was interesting to just gave it as some sort of baseline and discuss from there. You know no bias and so attached.

Like always numbers don't tell everything but to tell they don't say anything is a bit to much imo. It is always interesting to find what these numbers mean.

If data is a poor indicator for car performance what else can we use that is not biased and we can rely on?



#41 Bliman

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 22:11

Stats are not biased, they never tell the whole story though.

But where did I say that they tell the whole story? And can we extract something from it? I gave a more biased (I tried to be as honest but I am human just like everybody else) in the previous thread to what I think happened. I thought it would be interesting to just give the numbers now. I didn't expect this reaction.


Edited by Bliman, 08 November 2021 - 22:14.


#42 Heyli

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 22:15

Sorry but we have Requiem 84 who always hammers on the fact that the data is important. I then saw the stat of laps led in a race when they were showing the race and I thought this is interesting. So I thought to myself I look it up and found the stats site. I thought it was interesting to just gave it as some sort of baseline and discuss from there. You know no bias and so attached.

Like always numbers don't tell everything but to tell they don't say anything is a bit to much imo. It is always interesting to find what these numbers mean.

If data is a poor indicator for car performance what else can we use that is not biased and we can rely on?

We can take data to look at car performance.

 

How about we compare Bottas and Perez season so far, how does it look then?



#43 Bliman

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 22:19

We can take data to look at car performance.

 

How about we compare Bottas and Perez season so far, how does it look then?

Laps led 76 for Bottas 40 for Perez

Wins 1 for Bottas 1 for Perez

Poles 3 for Bottas and 0 for Perez

I see I can also do Red Bull and Mercedes as a whole. Would it be more revealing if I gave that for all the stats or is it useless?



#44 Heyli

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 22:22

Laps led 76 for Bottas 40 for Perez

Wins 1 for Bottas 1 for Perez

Poles 3 for Bottas and 0 for Perez

I see I can also do Red Bull and Mercedes as a whole. Would it be more revealing if I gave that for all the stats or is it useless?

I think only looking at wins and poles is not very usefull no. I was talking about the relative finishing and starting position of Perez and Bottas... :)

 

Considering they were not at the front for most of the races, just focussing on wins and poles doesnt seem very useful!



#45 Bliman

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 22:32

I think only looking at wins and poles is not very usefull no. I was talking about the relative finishing and starting position of Perez and Bottas... :)

 

Considering they were not at the front for most of the races, just focussing on wins and poles doesnt seem very useful!

I can't find that on the site. But maybe there should be a consensus first amongst all if data is useful (after seeing the reaction on my post).

And if there is data that is useful (It will never tell the whole story it seldom does) which data is useful. I don't think it will be easy it seems.

If laps led in a race is already controversial. Then it will be which pole positions that count the one the FIA says or what people feel. And so we have many issues I think.

I am afraid it will remain a personal thing. Some will say that Mercedes is stronger some say it is Red Bull some say it is even. And we have the added difficulty because we have four different drivers 3 who are already long in their team and one that is only just there.



#46 Fastcake

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 22:34

I think the Red Bull has been a better car than the Mercedes at more races than the opposite.

 

Logically that would suggest Red Bull would be the fastest car, but I don't think it's entirely that clear cut. Although there have been a few GPs where one team has a clear advantage, the differences have not always been very large. With small margins driver differences can certainly overcome the car. There's also been weekends where the cars have been very close in qualifying, suggesting in pure pace the cars are close enough to be considered equal, then in race pace one car pulls away. In my opinion, race pace is the key differentiator. In particular, even when behind Red Bull often appear closer to Mercedes, whereas I think there's been more Sunday's where Mercedes look more clearly outmatched.



#47 Heyli

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 22:40

I can't find that on the site. But maybe there should be a consensus first amongst all if data is useful (after seeing the reaction on my post).

And if there is data that is useful (It will never tell the whole story it seldom does) which data is useful. I don't think it will be easy it seems.

If laps led in a race is already controversial. Then it will be which pole positions that count the one the FIA says or what people feel. And so we have many issues I think.

I am afraid it will remain a personal thing. Some will say that Mercedes is stronger some say it is Red Bull some say it is even. And we have the added difficulty because we have four different drivers 3 who are already long in their team and one that is only just there.

I think the data is usefull to determine performance of the given car/driver combo's (but it still needs some footnotes), nothing more. It is definitely not useful to conclude which car was best, or which driver was best, as we have no way to judge which part is car and which part is driver.

 

It's quite clear that the Max/RB combo has been generally stronger than the Lewis/Merc combo so far. It is however equally clear (or at least imo) that the Bottas/Merc combo has been generally stronger than the Perez/RB combo. So taking that knowledge into consideration, what can we conclude about the car? Nothing. Can we then say that Max > Lewis and Bottas > Perez? Also not, because we dont know what factor comes from the car! 

 

I think the win for everyone is that the cars are close enough that we can even have these discussions... That's already an improvement compared to past seasons :). I dont think we will ever reach a consensus though! :)



#48 Bliman

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 22:49

I think the data is usefull to determine performance of the given car/driver combo's (but it still needs some footnotes), nothing more. It is definitely not useful to conclude which car was best, or which driver was best, as we have no way to judge which part is car and which part is driver.

 

It's quite clear that the Max/RB combo has been generally stronger than the Lewis/Merc combo so far. It is however equally clear (or at least imo) that the Bottas/Merc combo has been generally stronger than the Perez/RB combo. So taking that knowledge into consideration, what can we conclude about the car? Nothing. Can we then say that Max > Lewis and Bottas > Perez? Also not, because we dont know what factor comes from the car! 

 

I think the win for everyone is that the cars are close enough that we can even have these discussions... That's already an improvement compared to past seasons :). I dont think we will ever reach a consensus though! :)

That is the most difficult part in this discussion always to me. It is driver and car combination. We never know how much both contribute.

And you can then say look at the second driver but this is also flawed because it too has troubles. How much does the car suit you how long are you in the team what is the motivation and such. That was great with Senna and Prost. Both were in their prime in the fastest car and teammates.

And yeah maybe it is a big win that we can still have this discussion so deep in the season. That shows no matter if one car is faster than the other or not it is still exciting and everything can still change.



#49 enjoyingRBR

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 23:41

This whole thread is about the car. But actually. ITS NOT!
For most people (read max/lewis fans) its all about excusing their hero for not winning.
If you look at who says mercedes has a fast car. All max fans.
The ones stating RBR has best car. All lewis fans.

I can understand. We need an excuse for our hero..
Either for not winning. Or make the win more special.

The one thing why i am a max fan is that i believe max really crushes his teammates.
Max is capable to extract so much more out of a car because the rails the cars ride on can be so much narrower for him.
His teammates eventually all choke on that skill and never seem to get close..

Edited by enjoyingRBR, 08 November 2021 - 23:42.


#50 Leibowitz

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Posted 09 November 2021 - 00:00

It has been pretty close throught the whole season but in my opinion:

 

RB was better in EMI,MON,AZE,STY,AUT,NED,USA,MEX (8 races)

 

Mercedes was better in POR,ESP,HUN,ITA,RUS,TUR (6 races)

 

I'd say it was pretty equal in BHR, FRA, GBR and it's impossible to say about Belgium. I am very tempted to put USA in the pretty equal category, but I do feel that RB had slight edge over Mercedes especially when you consider Qualifying pace.

 

Anyway, while RB16b is on the paper the strongest challenger to Mercedes in the Hybrid era, I'd say that that title belongs to SF71H (in terms of car potential).


Edited by Leibowitz, 09 November 2021 - 00:04.