1281 replies to this topic

[Requiem84]

Max always gets the best from the car @Ivanhoe. I’m just saying that put Norris, Sainz, Leclerc in the 2nd RB they would’ve got a lot more 1-2s in quali ending this myth that it was only due to max RB was quick. Everyone knows Sergio has awful one lap pace

It has never been considered awful.

He held his own against all team mates prior to Max.

[A3]

Interesting, although I think perhaps a little British-leaning. Were the cars really evenly matched in Portugal? And it does seem to suggest that Baku was more of a team/driver error for Red Bull than it was for Mercedes. But definitely worth a read.

Hamilton had that steering ‘em wheel layout for years. And driver tell the teams where they want the buttons.

[SpatialTech]

Hamilton had that steering ‘em wheel layout for years. And driver tell the teams where they want the buttons.

Yes, that would of course work. Rosberg wanted them here, Bottas there, Hamilton over there. Different wheel for all of them….

AMG have already agreed that it was there mistake, and have rectified it.

[Ivanhoe]

Yes, that would of course work. Rosberg wanted them here, Bottas there, Hamilton over there. Different wheel for all of them….

Basically, yes.

https://www.motorspo...ussell/6969374/

[SpatialTech]

It has never been considered awful.
He held his own against all team mates prior to Max.

Raikkonen wanted to punch him in the face, Button called him dangerous and he’s only ever had a drive backed by his billionaire.

He’s notoriously poor in qualifying, just got this misplaced name as being good on his tyres. Mclaren announced they had kicked him out before the end of the season, so he took his millions with him to Force India, where he was just about as good.

Sorry mate, just a good pay driver, nothing else.

[SpatialTech]

Basically, yes.
https://www.motorspo...ussell/6969374/

They always had the same steering wheel. Not individual ones, and I reiterate, AMG said it was their issue. Th only difference was the gear change, as Hamilton preferred a smaller one. That’s it. That’s all they did with Russell, from what I can see. The wheel itself has not changed, just the gear paddles.

EDIT just looked at the pictures and it’s just the gear paddles.

Edited by SpatialTech, 07 January 2022 - 23:05.

[Ivanhoe]

They always had the same steering wheel. Not individual ones

They do. This is for example 2018. Same buttons, different functions. Bottas had the brake magic button at the front of his wheel in 2021, where Lewis had it on the back.

[SpatialTech]

They do. This is for example 2018. Same buttons, different functions. Bottas had the brake magic button at the front of his wheel in 2021, where Lewis had it on the back.

Wow, didn’t see that, I apologise, couldn’t be more wrong. I read somewhere that the only changes were on the paddles.

Sorry.

[Spillage]

Hamilton had that steering ‘em wheel layout for years. And driver tell the teams where they want the buttons.

The other two things the article is a bit soft on LH for are the setup in Monaco and Budapest. If MPH is correct then in Monaco Mercedes inexplicably allowed Bottas to soften the setup whilst insisting Hamilton stuck with a stiff setup, despite his protestations. That seems a little unlikely to me.

Not pitting at the end of the formation lap in Budapest is an error Mark lays solely at the feet of Mercedes, but I don't see why Lewis couldn't have insisted on coming in. We heard other drivers doing that. Even then he might have won the race had he not taken eleven laps to pass Alonso.

To be fair I think his metric for working out how many points were dropped is pretty accurate. But he does seem to be a lot harsher on Verstappen's driving than on Hamilton's - for instance saying that Max could have backed out at Silverstone but Lewis' off weekend in Monaco was all Mercedes' fault.

[lewislorenzo]

Why should Lewis be the one to always back out but never Max…

[SpatialTech]

The other two things the article is a bit soft on LH for are the setup in Monaco and Budapest. If MPH is correct then in Monaco Mercedes inexplicably allowed Bottas to soften the setup whilst insisting Hamilton stuck with a stiff setup, despite his protestations. That seems a little unlikely to me.
Not pitting at the end of the formation lap in Budapest is an error Mark lays solely at the feet of Mercedes, but I don't see why Lewis couldn't have insisted on coming in. We heard other drivers doing that. Even then he might have won the race had he not taken eleven laps to pass Alonso.
To be fair I think his metric for working out how many points were dropped is pretty accurate. But he does seem to be a lot harsher on Verstappen's driving than on Hamilton's - for instance saying that Max could have backed out at Silverstone but Lewis' off weekend in Monaco was all Mercedes' fault.

I think if AMG were truculent about keeping his suspension stiff, and his team mates suppler, then it is a team mistake. I also tend to agree until Verstappen understand’s it’s ok to lose a battle to win a war, he’ll struggle in this area.

[A3]

Wow, didn’t see that, I apologise, couldn’t be more wrong. I read somewhere that the only changes were on the paddles.

Sorry.

 

[edit: Keep it classy/ jcbc3]

 

Here, maybe you'll learn something.

 

Edited by jcbc3, 08 January 2022 - 14:59.

[A3]

The other two things the article is a bit soft on LH for are the setup in Monaco and Budapest. If MPH is correct then in Monaco Mercedes inexplicably allowed Bottas to soften the setup whilst insisting Hamilton stuck with a stiff setup, despite his protestations. That seems a little unlikely to me.

Not pitting at the end of the formation lap in Budapest is an error Mark lays solely at the feet of Mercedes, but I don't see why Lewis couldn't have insisted on coming in. We heard other drivers doing that. Even then he might have won the race had he not taken eleven laps to pass Alonso.

To be fair I think his metric for working out how many points were dropped is pretty accurate. But he does seem to be a lot harsher on Verstappen's driving than on Hamilton's - for instance saying that Max could have backed out at Silverstone but Lewis' off weekend in Monaco was all Mercedes' fault.

 

Yeah agreed, he's more tough on Verstappen compare to his views on Lewis. But it only adds more to the conclusions that Max would have won it much earlier wasn't it for bad luck.

[shure]

I think if AMG were truculent about keeping his suspension stiff, and his team mates suppler, then it is a team mistake. I also tend to agree until Verstappen understand’s it’s ok to lose a battle to win a war, he’ll struggle in this area.

I can see that argument, although I don't necessarily agree, but it takes two drivers to battle, and I think the point being made about Mark Hughes' - who I respect a lot, by the way - article is that he gives Max the entire blame for that incident, whereas Lewis was also at the very least  equally at fault, but seems to go out of his way to excuse Lewis more.  I think if Max had been found at fault for Silverstone by the stewards, it may have made Mark's point more credible, but as it is it looks a little harsh.  It's not the end of the world, but does appear to contradict his earlier preface where he states he's not interested in apportioning blame

 

His Portugal write up seems a little lazy, too, and I'm hoping he maybe cropped an earlier version.  Because he focuses purely on the cars speeds in the straights to prove the cars were equal, then goes on to say that Max was working his car a lot harder in the twisty bits, while Lewis was taking it much easier, but fails to explain why if that was the case Lewis was right on Max's gearbox coming onto the straight.  And then he concludes that it was Max's fault he was overtaken.  Again, seems a little harsh.  

[UncleSam]

Yeah agreed, he's more tough on Verstappen compare to his views on Lewis. But it only adds more to the conclusions that Max would have won it much earlier wasn't it for bad luck.

Looking at all the articles The-Race has brought recently one can only conclude Mercedes and Lewis are very much on their mind..

Edited by UncleSam, 08 January 2022 - 10:22.

[Requiem84]

They do. This is for example 2018. Same buttons, different functions. Bottas had the brake magic button at the front of his wheel in 2021, where Lewis had it on the back.

To add this a 2013 insight from Hamilton himself about how he influenced the steering wheel design:

The first time I sat in the cockpit I thought the steering wheel was way too complex.
There were 26 switches and buttons, compared to my previous steering wheel, which might have had about 10.

I was thinking: "Jeez, when am I ever going to get on top of all this?"
And then my next question was: "What do I need out of all the stuff you're providing me with, and what can I do without?"
I still want to be able to change my car settings - but because I'm coming to a new team I need to quickly learn and I want to have just what I need and not extra stuff that I will only need once in a blue moon.

When I'm driving, the fewer distractions there are, the better it is to focus on the job in hand.
If the engineers could, they'd give you 40 buttons, but when you're driving it's not that easy to use them all, so it's better to have the ones you really need.

The key thing is to make it simpler without getting rid of stuff that I might need to make the car go quicker.
I'm also thinking about trying to lose weight from the car - the fewer buttons we have on the steering wheel, the less weight we have on it, and we can put it in other places.

So, instead of tons of different buttons, we now have default switches - on one button you can access three or four different settings.
In terms of switches and dials, I have taken off three from the back, two off the front, and removed one of the rotary dials.
Instead of a brake-bias button, we now have a red switch with 'X' on it, and all I have to do is press it and see what my brake bias is. And I have three different settings rather than six or seven. The clutch bite-point is on the same button.
In total, that might be 100g, which doesn't sound like much, but it all counts in an F1 car.

Even then, the current steering wheel we have is still too complicated for my taste, so I am working on designing a new one, which we will have next year.

[as65p]

To add this a 2013 insight from Hamilton himself about how he influenced the steering wheel design:

Ah. So who again put that brake magic button where it was so easy to press at the wrong time?

[P123]

Now we've got to the traditional 'Hamilton's Fault' area of discussion, this topic can now safely be closed.

[A3]

Now we've got to the traditional 'Hamilton's Fault' area of discussion, this topic can now safely be closed.

 

[SpatialTech]

Ah. So who again put that brake magic button where it was so easy to press at the wrong time?

Hamilton didn’t, if that’s what you’re alluding to. I am quite sure he didn’t say ‘oh, put that button just there, yup, by my hand’. AMG have already said it was their fault, an ergonomic flaw.

Reckon I’ll listen to them in this one.

[Dhillon]

I simply refuse to believe Hamilton can make a mistake. Obviously Mercedes put the button at the wrong place.

[SpatialTech]

I simply refuse to believe Hamilton can make a mistake. Obviously Mercedes put the button at the wrong place.

He made mistakes this season, all of the drivers did, I don’t know if you’re trying to make a point here. I have never seen a flawless season in F1 and I doubt I ever will.

[Requiem84]

Let’s not derail this thread any further by talking about LH. The topic is about the cars, not the drivers - and the actual topic at hand is still interesting.

[SpatialTech]

[edit: Keep it classy/ jcbc3]
 
Here, maybe you'll learn something.
https://www.youtube....h?v=OX58IkeSl4c
 
https://www.youtube....h?v=Rwz10U3BALo

Where are my emojis now…

[A3]

Hamilton didn’t, if that’s what you’re alluding to. I am quite sure he didn’t say ‘oh, put that button just there, yup, by my hand’. AMG have already said it was their fault, an ergonomic flaw.

Reckon I’ll listen to them in this one.

 

Maybe you just don't understand, but the driver chooses the button layout. Bottas was using that same button to activate DRS and has the Brake Warming (BW) button on the front left of his steering wheel. Was the button itself poorly designed in hindsight? Maybe, but Lewis drove with it for years without accidentally touching it. 

They fixed it by putting a shroud around it.

 

 Are the drivers involved in the design process of a steering wheel?

Yes, in fact they're quite heavily involved in the design process because the wheels are custom-built to their individual needs. Both the ergonomics of the wheel, and the physical layout of the shape and the grips are fitted to their hands, and the way they like to interact with the steering wheel. Those changes are not just made at the beginning of the season. The steering wheel design is a continuous process. During the season, drivers might ask for changes to the grips and the layout of the buttons and switches - based on the individual demands of the driver and the track layout.

https://www.mercedes...ing-wheel-work/

[SpatialTech]

Maybe you just don't understand, but the driver chooses the button layout. Bottas was using that same button to activate DRS and has the Brake Warming (BW) button on the front left of his steering wheel. Was the button itself poorly designed in hindsight? Maybe, but Lewis drove with it for years without accidentally touching it. 
They fixed it by putting a shroud around it.
 

https://www.mercedes...ing-wheel-work/

Again, going with AMG on this, who took the blame on the chin.

HTH

[as65p]

Again, going with AMG on this, who took the blame on the chin.

HTH

 

You mean this?

 

Mercedes technology director Mike Elliott:

 

"It's our duty to try and give him a car where it's more difficult for him to make mistakes. We need to take our share of that, look at how we can improve that and that's something we will put in place for the next race."

[taran]

You mean this?

 

Mercedes technology director Mike Elliott:

 

"It's our duty to try and give him a car where it's more difficult for him to make mistakes. We need to take our share of that, look at how we can improve that and that's something we will put in place for the next race."

 

 

That sounds suspiciously like it’s their responsibility to build a fool-proof car but Hamilton proved to be a bigger fool than they expected so they’ll change somethings so it will be even more fool-proof.

 

All kidding aside, has everyone forgotten Hamilton bleating about it being a marathon instead of a sprint before the restart and then promptly ignoring his own words by trying to win the race in the first corner?  The simple truth is he got overexcited about the opportunity of winning the race with Verstappen scoring zero points and made a mistake. A mistake which hadn’t happened during all the previous races with the same BW system and lay-out.

 

We have seen numerous examples of teams covering up mistakes from their drivers in public to keep them in the right state of mind (Verstappen and Ricciardo at the same track for example). Hamilton made a mistake. Yes, it was a costly mistake but all drivers make occasional mistakes, even the very best of them. Hamilton knows he made a mistake, there was nothing to gain by publicly stating the bleeding obvious so it was glossed over as a design issue and the team moved on. Although if Bottas had made a similar mistake, I have no doubt Wolff would have hung him out to dry….

[A3]

Although if Bottas had made a similar mistake, I have no doubt Wolff would have hung him out to dry….

 

Yeah, like they blamed him for being "out of position" at the Monaco grand prix.

Edited by A3, 10 January 2022 - 09:38.

[Paa]

This is an interesting graph.

Average upshift rpm during the season (only dry track data)

 

It kinda strenghten the theory that Merc used to engine changes so they can use the engine on higher settings, compared to Max, who was very conservative with the rpms, during the season. Even compared to Perez.

Of course it is not conclusive, as there are multiple other factors as well, but still an interesting graph.

 

[SenorSjon]

It could also be driving style vs engine characteristic, as the AM-Merc also has high revs.

 

I do some short shifts as well or run in a higher gear (at least in sims) to keep more speed in the car, keep it more stable or reduce wheelspin.

Edited by SenorSjon, 12 January 2022 - 15:08.

[SpatialTech]

This is an interesting graph.
Average upshift rpm during the season (only dry track data)

It kinda strenghten the theory that Merc used to engine changes so they can use the engine on higher settings, compared to Max, who was very conservative with the rpms, during the season. Even compared to Perez.
Of course it is not conclusive, as there are multiple other factors as well, but still an interesting graph.

Is it me or does the AMG engine look less peaky than others by this chart? Seems there are changes on all Merc engines across the range, where Ferrari, for example, seem always close to peak engine revs.

Edited by SpatialTech, 12 January 2022 - 15:11.