26 replies to this topic

[racinggeek]

I ask this in all seriousness as an armchair racing historian -- Did Kyle Larson just conclude the greatest season for a race driver in motorsports history?

 

Consider: Besides 10 wins in 36 races in the Cup series (making him one of the very few in NASCAR's modern era to go double digits in wins) and the win in the non-points All-Star race, Larson also won 18 of 50 outings in sprint cars, midgets and late model stockers on dirt ovals (based on stats from the website The Third Turn).

 

These dirt races weren't everyday weekly shows for the most part, too. His wins in midget cars included a second straight Chili Bowl Nationals in Tulsa and the BC39 in Indy, arguably two of the three most prestigious midget races in the U.S. (other being the Belleville Nationals); he won the two biggest sprint car races of the year, the Kings Royal at Eldora (Ohio) and the Knoxville Nationals; and for good measure added victory in one of the country's most important and highest-paying dirt late-model races, the Prairie Dirt Classic. OK, he wasn't trying sports cars or like that, but worth noting that of his  NASCAR Cup wins, two came on actual road courses and one on a fake -- er. I mean roval.

 

That's why I'm hard-pressed to think of a racer who had a better year, not just for the winning record but also for all-around ability, winning in a multitude of disciplines in a single season, and against the level of competition faced week in and week out. AJ in 1964 comes to mind, and I'm not familiar enough with what some of the European racers did outside the big races in their winningest years, like Clark in '63. But dang, how do you top what Larson did this year, especially given how few all-arounders there are in modern-day racing?

 

Thoughts or arguments?

[messy]

He’s been incredible. I mean, he’s been racing constantly all year and he’s just been an absolute winning machine, all the more incredible when you consider he’s just back from a year’s suspension - although maybe some could argue that might be WHY he’s been so prolific this year. He is absolutely the man in form but I doubt he’ll get the credit he deserves from the British press because NASCAR just isn’t rated compared to other series, it’s considered too niche. He should be easily in the top five in Autosport’s top 50 in my book but I bet he’s not.

Comparable seasons? Nothing, in terms of sheer volume of success. But Sebastien Loeb’s 2005 was pretty astounding.

[eibyyz]

I ask this in all seriousness as an armchair racing historian -- Did Kyle Larson just conclude the greatest season for a race driver in motorsports history?

 

Consider: Besides 10 wins in 36 races in the Cup series (making him one of the very few in NASCAR's modern era to go double digits in wins) and the win in the non-points All-Star race, Larson also won 18 of 50 outings in sprint cars, midgets and late model stockers on dirt ovals (based on stats from the website The Third Turn).

 

These dirt races weren't everyday weekly shows for the most part, too. His wins in midget cars included a second straight Chili Bowl Nationals in Tulsa and the BC39 in Indy, arguably two of the three most prestigious midget races in the U.S. (other being the Belleville Nationals); he won the two biggest sprint car races of the year, the Kings Royal at Eldora (Ohio) and the Knoxville Nationals; and for good measure added victory in one of the country's most important and highest-paying dirt late-model races, the Prairie Dirt Classic. OK, he wasn't trying sports cars or like that, but worth noting that of his  NASCAR Cup wins, two came on actual road courses and one on a fake -- er. I mean roval.

 

That's why I'm hard-pressed to think of a racer who had a better year, not just for the winning record but also for all-around ability, winning in a multitude of disciplines in a single season, and against the level of competition faced week in and week out. AJ in 1964 comes to mind, and I'm not familiar enough with what some of the European racers did outside the big races in their winningest years, like Clark in '63. But dang, how do you top what Larson did this year, especially given how few all-arounders there are in modern-day racing?

 

Thoughts or arguments?

Hard to say--Mario 1966-69 won in everything except riding lawn mowers.  And the cars were more dangerous.

 

I'm just glad I got to see Larson's year.  Anything else is like trying to pick your favorite child.

 

Props to Rick Hendrick for letting Kyle go nuts, too.

[noriaki]

Ever? Nah. Just in 1967 AJ Foyt won Indy 500 and the USAC title, the 24h of Le Mans outright, and finished 2nd at Sebring 12h as well as a NASCAR race at Daytona. Don't have the records but sure he also did plenty of non-championship dirt oval racing that year.

[Collombin]

Ted Horn had a fantastic 1948 (apart from being killed), winning something like 24 out of 25 sprintcar races (Mr Thurman, please step in here as required) and winning his 3rd national championship in a row.

1965 is usually considered Clark's most successful year, what with Indy, the WDC and the Tasman series. Best not mention the Race of Champions though.

Edited by Collombin, 08 November 2021 - 21:34.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Marc Marquez MotoGP 2019 surely?

[pacificquay]

I feel very uncomfortable about this rehabilitation of the image of someone who used racial epithets.

 

That language is so beyond acceptability there is no excuse for it and to now suggest he can be reformed sticks in the craw.

[ARTGP]

It's difficult to judge the level of competition he has faced and compare it to other categories of sport.

 

If we are just comparing Nascar drivers, Kyle Busch had wins coming out the rear in the late 2000s across all 3 categories (Cup, nationwide, trucks). 2010 season in particular. Winning at a canter in 3 different pro level series. He would drive 3 completely different cars in the same weekend and, sweep the entire weekend of Nascar series. Kyle Busch with fresh tires on a safety car restart was simply unstoppable. Good car, bad car, dump truck, he would take it to the lead.

Edited by ARTGP, 08 November 2021 - 22:30.

[P0inters]

Marc Marquez MotoGP 2019 surely?

And Rossi 2003. 9/16 wins. 16/16 podiums.

[eibyyz]

I feel very uncomfortable about this rehabilitation of the image of someone who used racial epithets.

 

That language is so beyond acceptability there is no excuse for it and to now suggest he can be reformed sticks in the craw.

 

Everyone's entitled to their opinion.  I disagree with yours, and that's fine.  I've seen redemption enough times to know it exists.

Edited by eibyyz, 08 November 2021 - 22:29.

[johnwilliamdavies]

Did Kyle Larson just conclude the greatest season for a race driver in motorsports history?

 

 

Let's get a bit of perspective. He was racing in a domestic series

[Ross Stonefeld]

And Rossi 2003. 9/16 wins. 16/16 podiums.

 

Marquez had more competition I reckon. 

[NewMrMe]

Marc Marquez MotoGP 2019 surely?

 

 

And Rossi 2003. 9/16 wins. 16/16 podiums.

 

 

If talking MotoGP /500cc then surely Giacomo Agostini in the late 60s and early 70s. His record from 1968 to 1972.

 

1968 - 10 races 10 wins.

1969 - 12 races 10 wins. Did not enter the last two rounds of the championship.

1970 - 12 races 11 wins. Did not enter the last race.

1971 - 12 races 9 wins. 1 DNF and did not enter 2 races.

1972 - 13 races 11 wins. 1 DNF and did not enter the last race.

 

In the same period he also raced in the 350cc class.His record.

 

1968 - 7 races 7 wins.

1969 - 10 races 8 wins. Did not enter the last two rounds of the championship

1970 - 11 races 10 wins. Did not enter the last race.

1971 - 11 races 6 wins. 3 DNFs and did not enter the last 2 races.

1972 - 12 races 6 wins, 1 2nd, 1 4th, 3 DNFS. Did not enter the last race.

[ARTGP]

I think one of OPs points is that the competitor needs to be considered as having a high achieving multi-disciplinary season.  So Marquez can't count. He only had to drive a MotoGP bike, as well as he drove it. Alonso would be in the conversation for IMSA/WEC/Indycar but I don't think his success rate was high enough, and he was racing himself more or less at Le Mans so not enough competition there.

[Myrvold]

I feel very uncomfortable about this rehabilitation of the image of someone who used racial epithets.

 

That language is so beyond acceptability there is no excuse for it and to now suggest he can be reformed sticks in the craw.

 

Nah, I mean. I don't really like the guy. But that's more down to other stuff as well. Like his big Daytona-crash, where spectators got injured, and he shrugged it off, saying nothing bad happened, that was just how racing was and the cars were so safe as well, that in the end it didn't matter much. He'd race the same way with the same outcome again. While I see the racer-side of it, it wasn't a smart thing to say when spectators got injured.

 

All in all, he's often come across as somewhat entitled and that he doesn't care for many other than himself. Which on track is good, but off track, not so good.

Edited by Myrvold, 09 November 2021 - 00:06.

[racinggeek]

Ted Horn had a fantastic 1948 (apart from being killed), winning something like 24 out of 25 sprintcar races (Mr Thurman, please step in here as required) and winning his 3rd national championship in a row.

1965 is usually considered Clark's most successful year, what with Indy, the WDC and the Tasman series. Best not mention the Race of Champions though.

 

I wasn't sure if 1963 or '65 was considered a greater year for Clark, so either works for me.

 

Ever? Nah. Just in 1967 AJ Foyt won Indy 500 and the USAC title, the 24h of Le Mans outright, and finished 2nd at Sebring 12h as well as a NASCAR race at Daytona. Don't have the records but sure he also did plenty of non-championship dirt oval racing that year.

 

Thought about that one but 1964 arguably was even better for SuperTex, not just winning Indy and completely domaining the USAC trail but also winning NASCAR's Firecracker 400 and a big sports car race at Daytona in a Scarab, beating Dan Gurney and P. Rodriguez among others.

 

Ross Stonefeld, on 08 Nov 2021 - 15:35, said:

Marc Marquez MotoGP 2019 surely?

 

 

P0inters, on 08 Nov 2021 - 16:25, said:

And Rossi 2003. 9/16 wins. 16/16 podiums.

 

Hadn't thought of bikes -- those are good ones. How about Freddie Spencer in 1985? Yeah, the competition wasn't as deep as it was for Rossi and Marquez, but won both the 250 and 500 titles, with seven wins and one second in 10 races on the 250 and seven wins and three seconds in 11 races on the 500. Won the Daytona 200 that year, too.

 

 

Let's get a bit of perspective. He was racing in a domestic series

 

So racers from F1, Moto GP or World Rally are the only ones worth considering? Can't go with that.

 

When I asked, I considered, and ask others to consider, not just wins and record in a  given season but also level of competition, depth of competition, and importance or prestige of the wins individually and the series where they were achieved. 

 

Also, while others may not take it into account, I believe versatility should be worth at least a little extra credit when applicable. Being able to win in more than one type of car (or on one type of bike), requiring very different driving styles, and on different types of tracks should count for something.

 

It's a question without a definitive answer, I know. Glad to get and discuss other fans' and historians' perspectives.

[ThadGreen]

I feel very uncomfortable about this rehabilitation of the image of someone who used racial epithets.

 

That language is so beyond acceptability there is no excuse for it and to now suggest he can be reformed sticks in the craw.

 

He served a season long suspension.

 

He completed NASCAR's Drive for Diversity program.

 

He spoke directly to fellow drivers including including Bubba Wallace.

 

He worked alongside Anthony Martin at Urban Youth Racing School and continues donating his time and money into the school after being reinstated by NASCAE

 

He is himself a minority.

 

Perhaps you can stop clutching your pearls and put away the smelling salts and appreciate what the man has accomplished and enjoy the sport. 

Edited by ThadGreen, 09 November 2021 - 12:43.

[jonpollak]

Yeah, that’s not enough for the cancel Kyle brigade.
They saw it on their internet news feed so it MUST be dealt with as a crime against our current prescribed standards !!!

Jp

[jjcale]

I feel very uncomfortable about this rehabilitation of the image of someone who used racial epithets.

That language is so beyond acceptability there is no excuse for it and to now suggest he can be reformed sticks in the craw.

Get over yourself ... he was just a dumb kid ... he said sorry. And it seems to be genuine.

What more do you want?

[Retrofly]

Yeah, that’s not enough for the cancel Kyle brigade.
They saw it on their internet news feed so it MUST be dealt with as a crime against our current prescribed standards !!!

 

Jp

Why do people play the victim like this and go completely overboard.

 

Anyway, feels like a big "big fish in a small pond" to me.

[PayasYouRace]

Let’s not make this personal guys. Attack the argument, not the poster.

[Risil]

We all know what Kyle Larson said and we're not going to agree on what the appropriate amount of contrition and punishment should be.

 

This thread's not about that though, it's about where Larson's incredibly successful oval track season ranks among the greats. So please can we stick to that and not take shots at each other about the other stuff.

 

(Lol PayasYouRace said it more succinctly above. Listen to him!)

[Risil]

Anyway, feels like a big "big fish in a small pond" to me.

 

Several ponds: as the Racinggeek says Larson's won big events in stock cars, midgets, late models and winged sprint cars. These are distinct disciplines with their own specialists, style of racing and different technical and sporting regulations. It also means Larson has excelled on tarmac and dirt, which are really different skills. And the range of participants in US oval track racing is much greater, so Larson has beaten quite a lot more than the best 10 road racers in the world plus assorted children of fashion/chemical/processed food magnates. Admittedly they all have the engines in the front and mostly turn left. But of the two, F1 is the smaller pond, albeit filled with sharks. I don't want to knock either.

[Risil]

I think one of OPs points is that the competitor needs to be considered as having a high achieving multi-disciplinary season.  So Marquez can't count. He only had to drive a MotoGP bike, as well as he drove it. Alonso would be in the conversation for IMSA/WEC/Indycar but I don't think his success rate was high enough, and he was racing himself more or less at Le Mans so not enough competition there.

 

I don't think that's quite fair. MotoGP is more physically draining and carries more risk of injury than stock car racing, so you more or less have to stick to one category for reasons of personal safety. Freddie Spencer won 250 and 500 championships in 1985 but that was probably the latest you could've attempted it, and besides soon afterwards he developed debilitating carpal tunnel syndrome that may have been (?) related to his heavy racing schedule.

 

That said, Marc Marquez has beaten some of the top American dirt track riders at the Superprestigio invitational event so he'd be more than capable of sticking it to some other bike disciplines.

[juicy sushi]

I feel very uncomfortable about this rehabilitation of the image of someone who used racial epithets.

 

That language is so beyond acceptability there is no excuse for it and to now suggest he can be reformed sticks in the craw.

While I understand the sentiment, I feel that we have to allow humans the ability to grow and improve as people.  I am not saying Larson has actually done that, as I have not been paying attention in the slightest, but while what he said was terrible, I don't want to deny him any opportunity to atone.  People other than myself will have to judge if he has actually done that.

[Izzyeviel]

'Dominant season' - he won by five points. what a damning indictment on modern nascar.

[juicy sushi]

As far as Larson's season goes, I think that he definitely has one worth considering.  Some Fangio/Moss seasons in the 50s, Andretti/Foyt seasons in the 60s, and Freddie Spencer aside, there's probably little out there that would reflect a similar scale of success.  Maybe Scott Dixon in 2020 is worth a small mention for winning the Indycar title, Daytona 24, and Petit Le Mans but that's not as many wins in as many different disciplines.