Jump to content


Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

Mercedes and their rear wing


  • Please log in to reply
1068 replies to this topic

#1 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 20,794 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 13 November 2021 - 21:55

Looks like we got ourselves a good fashioned technical infringements accusations row.

 

 

When asked by Motorsport.com to explain why he had touched Hamilton’s car – as well as his own shortly beforehand – Verstappen replied: “Well, I was clearly looking at the wing.

“So, yeah, I mean, you can see on the video what I did exactly. I was just looking at how much the rear wing was flexing at that point.”

 

 

Yeah, of course there have been talks, and of course there are things to still look into – because at a certain speed it seems like the wing is flexing,” he said.

“Of course you know we had, at the beginning of the season, to all change the rear wings a bit because of the back off [of the rear wing at high speed].

“But it seems like something is still backing off over there [at Mercedes]. So, that’s why I went and had a look.”

Verstappen also joked that he hoped his sanction – “quite a big fine” – would result in officials having “a nice dinner and a lot of wine!”

 

 

 

https://www.motorspo...cident/6778645/

 

This thread can follow up on anything that might arise from Red Bull’s suspicions that Merc are doing something untoward with their rear wing (separate from this weekend’s issue)



Advertisement

#2 w1Y

w1Y
  • Member

  • 9,188 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 13 November 2021 - 21:56

Imagine red bull acting bitchy about a flexi wing that passes the tests.

Also found it funny that max actually ends up with more money because he got pole bonus

Edited by w1Y, 13 November 2021 - 21:57.


#3 OneAndOnly

OneAndOnly
  • Member

  • 1,404 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 13 November 2021 - 21:58

If anyone can recognize flexy rear wing it’s RBR. They’ve been building them for a decade.
Did they officially protest MB rear wing?

#4 krapmeister

krapmeister
  • Member

  • 9,992 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 13 November 2021 - 22:01

“So, yeah, I mean, you can see on the video what I did exactly. I was just looking at how much the rear wing was flexing at that point.”


I can tell Max exactly how much the Merc rear wing was flexing in parc ferme without needing to touch it - absolutely zero lol

#5 Ivanhoe

Ivanhoe
  • RC Forum Host

  • 15,744 posts
  • Joined: November 15

Posted 13 November 2021 - 22:02

As long as Mercedes pass the load tests, fair play to them. And much better timing than Red Bull did with their flexing. No time to change the load tests for the rest of the season. If true Red Bull really got outsmarted by Mercedes. Looking forward to see those on board cameras showing the flexing like we saw with Red Bull.



#6 Ivanhoe

Ivanhoe
  • RC Forum Host

  • 15,744 posts
  • Joined: November 15

Posted 13 November 2021 - 22:07

I can tell Max exactly how much the Merc rear wing was flexing in parc ferme without needing to touch it - absolutely zero lol

Yeah, that was a pretty silly comment. How was he to see how much the wing was flexing on a parked car? 



#7 Counterbalance

Counterbalance
  • Member

  • 1,521 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 13 November 2021 - 22:16

I was about the start a similar topic.

 

What I did find interesting was that Max Verstappen paid particular intention to car 44's rear wing. Furthermore Christain Horner was quizzed post qualifying as to why the 4 tenths gap (including ICE) had manifested itself. He smugly replied (or words to) "That I all think we know why that was." Johnny Herbert (not my favourite commentator by a long stretch of the imagination) went on to ask why, and Horner just grinned smugly.

 

$50k fine for Max Verstappen, which the team will undoubtedly pay, and oh, the FIA will tweak the rules for any competitor touching another's car whilst under parc ferme conditions.

 

Horner knew this all long, the 1mm would not account for 4 tenths. Hence his rather smug interview. In my opinion he already knew the outcome a day in advance.

 

Car 44 was relegated to the back of the grid. No problem with that, a technical infringement is a slam dunk, unless you've got a questionable Ferrari engine.

 

Rules are rules, all should be ahered to, not one "oh, we'll have a look a bit later" and another "Oh, you're bang to rights".



#8 Counterbalance

Counterbalance
  • Member

  • 1,521 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 13 November 2021 - 22:17

Yeah, that was a pretty silly comment. How was he to see how much the wing was flexing on a parked car? 

 

Because knew in advance? Just floating it out there...



#9 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 22,000 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 13 November 2021 - 22:30

Cagey interview with Sky from Horner.

 

https://www.youtube....WpqlC-WQ&t=465s

 

RB claim to "know what it is".  I think that RB think that the rear flap on the Mercedes is moving excessively at high speed and this the "video" and "detailed notes" that Adrian Newey has submitted to the FIA yesterday.


Edited by ARTGP, 13 November 2021 - 22:31.


#10 FLB

FLB
  • Member

  • 23,505 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 13 November 2021 - 22:31

It's gonna get uglier before it gets better, isn't it...



#11 Ivanhoe

Ivanhoe
  • RC Forum Host

  • 15,744 posts
  • Joined: November 15

Posted 13 November 2021 - 22:31

Cagey interview with Sky from Horner.

 

https://www.youtube....WpqlC-WQ&t=465s

 

RB claim to "know what it is".  I think that RB think that the rear flap on the Mercedes is moving excessively at high speed.

Yeah, good luck with that. Mercedes clearly meet all the load tests, so fair play to them. And no time to change the regulations, so perfect timing as well.



#12 w1Y

w1Y
  • Member

  • 9,188 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 13 November 2021 - 22:34

It's too late in the season anyway.

#13 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 22,000 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 13 November 2021 - 22:36

Yeah, good luck with that. Mercedes clearly meet all the load tests, so fair play to them. And no time to change the regulations, so perfect timing as well.

 

Perhaps RB just want Mercedes to waste time and paper during a triple header.  They have nothing to lose throwing theories at the FIA. 


Edited by ARTGP, 13 November 2021 - 22:37.


#14 Dutchrudder

Dutchrudder
  • Member

  • 651 posts
  • Joined: February 16

Posted 13 November 2021 - 22:36

Because knew in advance? Just floating it out there...

Yeah, Red Bull obviously had a dossier prepared on it before the weekend. Could well have told Max to go and give it a wiggle in front of the camera’s, knowing that it’s probably the most PR positive way to accuse Merc of cheating.

#15 Paa

Paa
  • Member

  • 1,101 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 November 2021 - 22:37

Yeah, good luck with that. Mercedes clearly meet all the load tests, so fair play to them. And no time to change the regulations, so perfect timing as well.

 

But, but, but... how is that possible? They don't even have upgrades....


Edited by Paa, 13 November 2021 - 22:37.


#16 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 22,000 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 13 November 2021 - 22:38

But, but, but... how is that possible? They don't even have upgrades....

 

Playing with the stiffness of a part you already know.   Perhaps the FIA will offer a "cut that out" behind the scenes. We can never know.


Edited by ARTGP, 13 November 2021 - 22:38.


#17 w1Y

w1Y
  • Member

  • 9,188 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 13 November 2021 - 22:39

But, but, but... how is that possible? They don't even have upgrades....


Could have been a 2022 innovation they decided to bring forward. At the expense of possibly losing it for next year or having it copied.

#18 EndlessMotion

EndlessMotion
  • Member

  • 3,235 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 13 November 2021 - 22:39

Nice honesty from Max there. It was clear to anybody that wasn't in denial that Max physically compared his rear wing flex to Hamilton's right from the start but he could have gone for the route some people took here and said he never actually touched the wing, just put his hand near the wings :rolleyes: . Also I have a little bit of sympathy for Mercedes now as it seems like the slot gap only failed on one side of the wing from what Toto was saying. They still deserved the penalty as it ultimately failed the test and others have been punished when they weren't exactly at fault, driving over heavy curbs for example causing damage.

 

Doesn't sound like they were outright saying Max damaged our car but more that the car went out to qualifying after passing the test, came back in and failed the test, with Max being caught on camera inspecting and touching their rear wing......As a result the question kind of presents itself to look into exactly what Max was doing. That was investigated and whilst he shouldn't have been touching Hamilton's car like that, he quite obviously didn't cause any damage that made the wing fail the slot gap test.

 

Not quite as outrageous as it seemed at the time when we were all starved of information and were waiting for a verdict. I think Red Bull would have played it in exactly the same way if it was roles reversed, no doubt at all. Not like Horner and Marko would be saying "This is all our problem and Hamilton is not at fault at all. We're happy to have him inspecting our car hands on and would like to take a DSQ please" Classic F1 stuff now the details have all come out. It was investigated fully and Max got off with a fine that Red Bull will pick up and Mercedes had Hamilton DSQ from qualifying. Not really much to complain about in the end apart from the ridiculous length of time it took.



#19 Counterbalance

Counterbalance
  • Member

  • 1,521 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 13 November 2021 - 22:41

Playing with the stiffness of a part you already know.   Perhaps the FIA will offer a "cut that out" behind the scenes. We can never know.

 

It's a bit too late for that. Unless you have a highly legal engine in an Italian red car with a horse logo, of course.  :drunk:



Advertisement

#20 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 22,000 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 13 November 2021 - 22:47

I think RB should just "do what you think Mercedes is doing". That would solve their problem  :smoking: .   Perhaps impossible with budget caps and so on.


Edited by ARTGP, 13 November 2021 - 22:48.


#21 w1Y

w1Y
  • Member

  • 9,188 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 13 November 2021 - 22:48

I think RB should just "do what you think Mercedes is doing". That would solve their problem :smoking: . Perhaps impossible with budget caps and so on.


Depends. Red Bull may know what is happening. They question is fo they know how

#22 Counterbalance

Counterbalance
  • Member

  • 1,521 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 13 November 2021 - 23:11

Depends. Red Bull may know what is happening. They question is fo they know how

 

Agreed, totally, it's how they know, even in advance - see Horner's interview on Sky post sprint race qualifying.

 

The irony of RedBull questioning flexing wings isn't lost on me, either.



#23 Paa

Paa
  • Member

  • 1,101 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 November 2021 - 23:13

Agreed, totally, it's how they know, even in advance - see Horner's interview on Sky post sprint race qualifying.

 

The irony of RedBull questioning flexing wings isn't lost on me, either.

 

Why is it more ironic, than Merc questioning Red Bull? 



#24 Burtros

Burtros
  • Member

  • 2,371 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 13 November 2021 - 23:16

Agreed, totally, it's how they know, even in advance - see Horner's interview on Sky post sprint race qualifying.

The irony of RedBull questioning flexing wings isn't lost on me, either.

Its even more ironic Mercedes got a penalty for it!

Edited by Burtros, 13 November 2021 - 23:16.


#25 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 21,194 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 13 November 2021 - 23:37

Yeah, that was a pretty silly comment. How was he to see how much the wing was flexing on a parked car? 

 

There must have been a missing frame on that par ferme video where Max is swinging on the Merc rear wing.  :D



#26 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 21,194 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 13 November 2021 - 23:39

Why is it more ironic, than Merc questioning Red Bull? 

 

There was a lot of huffing and puffing and outright anger directed at Merc when they similarly questioned a rival car.  Even Hamilton mentioning how quick Red Bull was down the straight generated a lot of indignant seething against him.  Now Max is a rear wing expert, are we meant to be angry at him too?  Or like previously, would it be a bit ridiculous....



#27 Paa

Paa
  • Member

  • 1,101 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 November 2021 - 23:41

There was a lot of huffing and puffing and outright anger directed at Merc when they similarly questioned a rival car.  Even Hamilton mentioning how quick Red Bull was down the straight generated a lot of indignant seething against him.  Now Max is a rear wing expert, are we meant to be angry at him too?  Or like previously, would it be a bit ridiculous....

 

 

I'm just saying that both teams are doing exactly the same things, both in car development and communication. Why one is more ironic than the other?



#28 w1Y

w1Y
  • Member

  • 9,188 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 13 November 2021 - 23:42

https://streamable.com/6nbuu9

#29 Singularity

Singularity
  • Member

  • 848 posts
  • Joined: March 21

Posted 13 November 2021 - 23:44

I think RB should just "do what you think Mercedes is doing". That would solve their problem  :smoking: .   Perhaps impossible with budget caps and so on.

If they believe the wing is illegal it is much better to force Mercedes to make a new one, like they had to do, instead of making an investment that might leave them exposed to protests.



#30 Arundo

Arundo
  • Member

  • 2,485 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 13 November 2021 - 23:45

It's gonna get uglier before it gets better, isn't it...

 

Dont think it gets better this year anymore, RB and Mercedes will fight till the end on and off track. 

Cant blame Redbull for trying ofc, they have been on the short end of the stick this year. 



#31 Counterbalance

Counterbalance
  • Member

  • 1,521 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 13 November 2021 - 23:47

Why is it more ironic, than Merc questioning Red Bull? 

 

Oh, I dunno, perahps 2012 says hello?  :wave:



#32 YamahaV10

YamahaV10
  • Member

  • 1,029 posts
  • Joined: June 21

Posted 13 November 2021 - 23:51

My theory is that the questionable new engine in the Mercedes had so much more power that the thrust bent the wing out of spec.



#33 w1Y

w1Y
  • Member

  • 9,188 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 13 November 2021 - 23:53

My theory is that the questionable new engine in the Mercedes had so much more power that the thrust bent the wing out of spec.


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

#34 Goron3

Goron3
  • Member

  • 3,704 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 14 November 2021 - 00:04

There are quotes from both AMuS and Motorsport magazine from Marko making it very clear that the issue is far from over, and that tomorrow we can expect to hear more from them and the FIA.

https://twitter.com/...h-JKIm2ovw&s=19

#35 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 21,194 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 14 November 2021 - 00:05

I'm just saying that both teams are doing exactly the same things, both in car development and communication. Why one is more ironic than the other?

 

I guess because the previous attitude was that it is only Mercedes who complain, and complaining is wrong.



#36 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 57,420 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 14 November 2021 - 00:06

Just ban the ****ing things.  Simples.



#37 FLB

FLB
  • Member

  • 23,505 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 14 November 2021 - 00:10

Just ban the ****ing things.  Simples.

AJ Foyt was already saying in 1973 that a wing is a crutch...



#38 Tenmantaylor

Tenmantaylor
  • Member

  • 16,524 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 14 November 2021 - 00:14

Playing with the stiffness of a part you already know. Perhaps the FIA will offer a "cut that out" behind the scenes. We can never know.


If it passes scrutineering (when not damaged) then how can they be asked to stop? You either pass or fail at the time of testing regardless of calculations from Newey. Scrutineering is stationary and the same for everyone, not out on track.

As Johnny said, if Red Bull can't do it also, they will try get the rules changed to ban it. Have they hired Owen Paterson?

#39 Counterbalance

Counterbalance
  • Member

  • 1,521 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 14 November 2021 - 00:21

There are quotes from both AMuS and Motorsport magazine from Marko making it very clear that the issue is far from over, and that tomorrow we can expect to hear more from them and the FIA.

https://twitter.com/...h-JKIm2ovw&s=19

 

Good for Marko. He should take early retirement along with Horner to brighten up the grid once more.



Advertisement

#40 YamahaV10

YamahaV10
  • Member

  • 1,029 posts
  • Joined: June 21

Posted 14 November 2021 - 00:22

Horner also said:

 

"Hamilton was 27 km/h faster than Lando when he passed him, which is another formula"

 

Edit: On medium tires too


Edited by YamahaV10, 14 November 2021 - 00:45.


#41 Arundo

Arundo
  • Member

  • 2,485 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 14 November 2021 - 00:28

Good for Marko. He should take early retirement along with Horner to brighten up the grid once more.


Add Wolff too please.

#42 Counterbalance

Counterbalance
  • Member

  • 1,521 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 14 November 2021 - 00:42

Horner also said:

 

"Hamilton was 27 km/h faster than Lando when he passed him, which is another formula"

 

Brand new ICE, higher engine mode (set before the start of sprint qualifying), different engine map giving more traction out of the (second to) last turn, different application of driving lines to name but a few reasons, perhaps?

 

Anthony Davidson gave quite a good explanation of how Hamilton passed Ricciardo after a few laps stuck behind by using a diffent driving line giving him the momentum he needed to successfully make the overtake on the straight.

 

 

Or perhaps it's down to a 0.2mm tolerance on the rear wing after all.



#43 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 22,000 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 14 November 2021 - 00:43

Brand new ICE, higher engine mode (set before the start of sprint qualifying), different engine map giving more traction out of the (second to) last turn, different application of driving lines to name but a few reasons, perhaps?

 

Anthony Davidson gave quite a good explanation of how Hamilton passed Ricciardo after a few laps stuck behind by using a diffent driving line giving him the momentum he needed to successfully make the overtake on the straight.

 

 

Or perhaps it's down to a 0.2mm tolerance on the rear wing after all.

 

But he used a different wing during the race. The old wing was impounded.


Edited by ARTGP, 14 November 2021 - 00:43.


#44 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 14,557 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 14 November 2021 - 00:52

Just ban the ****ing things.  Simples.

 

Yep, ban rear wings (and front ones too).



#45 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 14,557 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 14 November 2021 - 00:56

Cagey interview with Sky from Horner.

 

https://www.youtube....WpqlC-WQ&t=465s

 

RB claim to "know what it is".  I think that RB think that the rear flap on the Mercedes is moving excessively at high speed and this the "video" and "detailed notes" that Adrian Newey has submitted to the FIA yesterday.

 

It'll take the FIA 3 months or more to read through those "detailed notes" - so expect them to start to act upon them midway through next season.



#46 Counterbalance

Counterbalance
  • Member

  • 1,521 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 14 November 2021 - 01:04

But he used a different wing during the race. The old wing was impounded.


You have to use the same, untouched (ahem, Max) car before you exit the pits in Q1 for the rest of the weekend, as per parc ferme rules.

#47 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 21,194 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 14 November 2021 - 01:05

Horner also said:

 

"Hamilton was 27 km/h faster than Lando when he passed him, which is another formula"

 

Edit: On medium tires too

 

Under braking no doubt...



#48 Counterbalance

Counterbalance
  • Member

  • 1,521 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 14 November 2021 - 01:12

Horner also said:

"Hamilton was 27 km/h faster than Lando when he passed him, which is another formula"

Edit: On medium tires too


Shock horror! Mercedes faster on harder compound tyres. First race of the season for you?

PS -Sorry to all for a lot of posts this evening, I’m just really, really pissed off about the ruling, but on the positive side it made for a great race.

It’s almost as if Liberty Media need to somehow boost their viewing figures…

#49 YamahaV10

YamahaV10
  • Member

  • 1,029 posts
  • Joined: June 21

Posted 14 November 2021 - 01:28

Shock horror! Mercedes faster on harder compound tyres. First race of the season for you?

PS -Sorry to all for a lot of posts this evening, I’m just really, really pissed off about the ruling, but on the positive side it made for a great race.

It’s almost as if Liberty Media need to somehow boost their viewing figures…

Umm the softs were way better on the start and the mediums didn't break in as good as expected which is why Bottas won on softs and Max couldn't pass him on mediums.



#50 w1Y

w1Y
  • Member

  • 9,188 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 14 November 2021 - 01:32

Umm the softs were way better on the start and the mediums didn't break in as good as expected which is why Bottas won on softs and Max couldn't pass him on mediums.


What's your point?