2019 replies to this topic

[as65p]

Funny this.

 

You say "literally no stopping him".

 

And I say "well, he did for a while".

 

And you go "but not for long enough, so you must think he would have kept him behind forever, and it's a once in a lifetime achievement to have overtaken, you massive exaggerator".

 

And I think: "hmm, you seem to be the one who likes hyperbole".

Hope you enjoyed that dialog with yourself. Don't get why you had to go public with it, but hey...

[as65p]

So pretty close, as close as you can be without it happening i would say.

You know what they say about the miss and the mile?

[Hezekiah]

Hopefully Mercedes can maintain this form in the next races, but Hamilton is going to have to be be so careful around Verstappen because he's frankly such a dirty driver and has shown repeatedly that he will run other drivers off the road - and today confirmed that he will continue to get away with it in terms of the stewards.

 

Tricky position for Hamilton to be in given he's 14 points behind with just three races left.

[YamahaV10]

It's being given to Hamilton. Another restart.

The yellows were the gift to Hamilton. Without them he doesn't win

[YamahaV10]

Hopefully Mercedes can maintain this form in the next races, but Hamilton is going to have to be be so careful around Verstappen because he's frankly such a dirty driver and has shown repeatedly that he will run other drivers off the road - and today confirmed that he will continue to get away with it in terms of the stewards.

Tricky position for Hamilton to be in given he's 14 points behind with just three races left.

Running hard and to the line is still not doing a Schumacher. Or do you figure Max is going to literally drive into the side of someone's car like ol MS did twice ?

[HeadFirst]

Oh my, Toto is so full of BS.

First of all, comparing racism to F1 penalties is totally inappropriate. Secondly, while I do believe that Hamilton has suffered during the early stages of his career, claiming that he has been a victim for "all his life" is an exaggeration. I understand the appeal of portraying themselves as perennial victims, but this has gone too far IMHO.

Regarding the race, it was a very, very impressive drive. The momentum has swung firmly in LH's favour, but this season surely has a few more twists and turns down the road!

 

I have a way of successfully dealing with both Wolf and Horner .... I simply turn off the sound (hit the "Mute" on the remote), and give the image on-screen the finger, until the scene changes.

[renzmann]

Literally no stopping him. Apart from all the laps in which he stopped him.

Literally.

Verstappen did a great job nailing S2 for a long time, which allowed him to defend Hamilton dozens of laps while - literally - the whole field was overtaken by Hamilton within a single lap (bar Perez who lasted a handful laps, I guess). At some point, the rears didn't allow him to keep Hamilton out of the DRS windows, though. Nothing he could do after that. Sitting duck.

Edited by renzmann, 15 November 2021 - 06:23.

[itsgreen84]

Does anybody know if there is a per lap speed trap overview?

[Ali_G]

Has Norris’ puncture been mentioned here yet? I think this was the winning and losing of the race. He was probably the hardest driver to pass out there due to his straight line speed. I think it could have taken a lot of laps for Hamilton to get past.

[Hezekiah]

Running hard and to the line is still not doing a Schumacher. Or do you figure Max is going to literally drive into the side of someone's car like ol MS did twice ?

If Hamilton hadnt moved off track they would have crashed. Same as he did at Imola.

 

At Monza Verstappen did crash into Hamilton in case you missed it. I've thought for a while that he would rather crash then be passed given the choice, and now he has the championship lead to boot. He's without a doubt one of the dirtiest drivers on the grid. Describing it as "running hard and to the line" is a joke - especially he went so wide he also went off track.

Edited by Hezekiah, 15 November 2021 - 10:27.

[sketchy2001]

Literally no stopping him. Apart from all the laps in which he stopped him.

Literally.

Given that the dictionary definition of "literally" has recently been updated to allow its use in place of "figuratively", maybe you should try a better semantics burn?

 

https://www.merriam-...onary/literally

(section 2 in the full definition)

 

[sketchy2001]

If Hamilton hadnt moved off track they would have crashed. Same as he did at Imola.

 

At Monza Verstappen did crash into Hamilton in case you missed it. I've thought for a while that he would rather crash then be passed given the choice, and now he has the championship lead to boot. He's without a doubt one of the dirtiest drivers on the grid. Describing it as "running hard and to the line" is a joke - especially he went so wide he also went off track.

I don't think you can say that, if he was then he would be punished right? I would suggest his on-track behaviour is more symptomatic of the poor driving standards that the current "Let them race" policy encourages via its vagueness.

 

Apparently, Verstappen banzaing T4, missing the apex and not making the corner while pushing his opponent off is fine but Tsunoda trying a late lunge on Stroll was a 10s penalty because Stroll wasn't looking (my opinion obs).

One was cynical while the other was hopeful.  If this kind of thinking prevails then DRS is here to stay

[SophieB]

I moved the interesting discussion of Tsunoda’s penalty to its own space here:

 

https://forums.autos...-gp-2021-split/

[aeroscreen]

Hamilton taking the brasilian flag and brasilian tv host reaction

 

 

[ANF]

Does anybody know if there is a per lap speed trap overview?

Hmm, I don't think I've ever seen one.

[dannyricsshoe]

Hopefully Mercedes can maintain this form in the next races, but Hamilton is going to have to be be so careful around Verstappen because he's frankly such a dirty driver and has shown repeatedly that he will run other drivers off the road - and today confirmed that he will continue to get away with it in terms of the stewards.

Tricky position for Hamilton to be in given he's 14 points behind with just three races left.

What they need to do is send Hamilton out disguised as Bottass' car.

[ToniF1]

Verstappen Vs Hamilton And The Top 10 Onboards | 2021 Brazilian Grand Prix | Emirates

 

[ARTGP]

https://www.youtube....h?v=rRf6BHbk6Ec

 

lol

[Ferrim]

I need to watch again the lap of the overtake, that time Lewis was reaaally close and perhaps covering the inside was Max's only move, even though it led to checkmate.

I’ve checked this. These are my findings:

 

At the start of lap 48, Hamilton hinted at a dive down the inside of T1 (the dummy) and Verstappen covered the inside. This was shown during the live feed from Hamilton’s on board, and it looked to me -as I watched live- like a clear mistake by Verstappen – reminiscent of Fisichella vs Räikkönen at Suzuka. Hamilton was -IMO- too far behind. The move compromised Verstappen’s line through T2, leaving him vulnerable into T4. As it happened, Hamilton had him and only “the incident” kept Verstappen in front.

 

At the start of lap 59, the same scenario developed again. In this case, the live feed showed the world from Verstappen’s rear camera – which suggested Hamilton was really close this time, and in any case it didn’t allow a direct comparison with the previous time. But I’ve taken comparison shots from the YouTube F1 onboards video:

 

 

Hamilton vs Verstappen (Race, Lap 48)

 

Hamilton vs Verstappen (Race, Lap 59)


The captions show their relative positions at 150-200 meters before the corner. If anything, I would say Hamilton was very slightly closer on lap 48. From this I gather that Verstappen, apparently, made the same mistake. Twice. Which I find weird. Of course, he wasn’t lucky enough to be able to look at it from Hamilton’s car three days after the fact these are split-second decisions, and the speed differential was so big that it must have made very hard to assess.

 

It has been suggested that those moves by Hamilton weren’t dummies: that the moves were on and Verstappen was forced to cover the inside; otherwise, Hamilton would have launched an attack into T1, similar to how he overtook Norris during the sprint race.

 

Hamilton vs Norris (Sprint)

I think there will be no doubts from the above that Hamilton was much closer to Norris than he was to Verstappen. I don’t think the moves were on at all: at most, Hamilton could have dive-bombed, but would he have risked it, with 23 and then 12 laps to go? I don’t think so.

 

The first time around, I can see why Verstappen would want to cover T1 at all costs. He could have been thinking that T1 was Hamilton’s only chance. But lap 48 proved that a bad exit from T1 gave Hamilton a run into T4. Why did Verstappen cover T1 again in lap 59, at the -already known- cost of making himself a sitting duck on the run down to T4?

 

Only Verstappen knows, of course. Judgment error -twice- is a possibility. But I want to raise another one. Maybe Verstappen preferred to become a sitting duck and lose the lead into T4, rather than the mere chance of a divebomb into T1. In the context of the title race, being easily passed by a much quicker car would lose him the win, but secure second place. The other option seriously risked a collision – which had already almost happened into T4 on lap 48 – and scoring a zero. Remember Silverstone.

 

I don’t think Verstappen would have covered the inside of T1, with the precedent of lap 48, if he hadn’t been leading the WDC by a small but decent margin, with three races and a few laps to go. I think he’s way too intelligent for that. I have no way to prove it, but I (choose to) believe that he, uncharacteristically and consciously, and under pressure, decided to play it safe.

 

Just like both Mercedes and Red Bull played it safe with the 2-stopper for both cars and pitting at around the same time. They are in a race for the titles, and time is running out – any mistake could be fatal. I find this dynamic fascinating, and it will only increase in the final races.

 

But, of course, maybe he was just tricked.

[flyboym3]

Not sure where to post this as the incident thread seems (hastily?) closed and there is some more output of the GPDA meeting - some driver views:

 

George Russell GPDA director:

 

“I think, unfortunately, there was no outcome from Friday,” said the GPDA director. “I do appreciate you need to judge every single individual case-by-case, and circuit-by-circuit.

 

“But for me that was not even close to the line, it was well beyond the line, what went on. If that were the last lap of the race, in my opinion that would have been a slam-dunk penalty for Max. You can’t just outbrake yourself 25 metres and do that.

 

“Equally the incident with Tsunoda and Stroll, there was no way Tsunoda should have been penalised for that. He had absolutely the right to go for the move, wasn’t out of control, wasn’t locking up, and he still comfortably made the apex.

 

“That was a little bit unfortunate I think for all of us drivers, the outcome of a few results last week.”

 

Russell suggested that there was no penalty for Verstappen because in the end, it didn’t make any difference to the outcome – a stark contrast to the clash at Silverstone, for example, when the Mercedes driver was penalised.

 

“I think Max wasn’t punished purely because Lewis won the race,” said Russell. “The consequences shouldn’t be a factor in the punishment, or the judgement of the incident. You should judge the incident on a case-by-case basis.

 

“That’s what they’ve always told us, it’s not the consequences of that incident, it is the incident itself. I don’t know, really. At the end of the day, we all want to race hard, but that was hard and unfair, and we want hard, fair racing.”

 

 

Carlos Sainz:

 

Carlos Sainz admitted that he still doesn’t know where the boundaries lie, and echoed Russell in saying that the Friday debate hadn’t brought that much-needed clarity.

 

“I agree with George,” said the Spaniard. “It looks like over the winter there's going to be some more deep conversations about how we go racing as a sport, if the car on the inside should leave space to a car on the outside in any case or not.

 

“And we need to rethink a bit the whole approach, because the way it's been working this year, I think, it's pretty clear that the drivers we don't fully understand what is going to happen depending on what you do.

 

“And yeah, let's see the last three races. Hopefully there are not too many more episodes like this, like what happened in Brazil or in Austria, to the contrary, and see if we can improve as a sport for next year.”

 

When they’re making those split-second, instinctive decisions in the heat of battle drivers want to understand where the limits are, and how far they can push them.

“We need to know,” said Sainz. “I need to know if I can push the car on the outside wide. And what am I going to get if I do so? Do you have a warning coming if you do it once?

 

“Do you have actually a possibility to do it a couple of times and then you get a warning and then you can do it a fourth time? Are you going to get a penalty straight away like in Austria?

 

“This is what we don't know was a sport or as drivers, and we were seeking for answers. We more or less got some from Michael [Masi], but we know that sometimes Michael and stewards are not always exactly the same. So we will see going into next year, I think next year we should do a good step.

 

“I think as a sport we need to try and make it as much black and white as possible.”

 

There’s been a lot of talk about how asphalt run-off areas invite more aggressive behaviour, and also how gravel traps on the outside hurt the driver pushed wide a lot more – thus potentially generating a tougher response against the driver doing the leaning.

 

“My humble opinion as a racing driver it should be no difference,” said Sainz. "Because outside of the track we're always going to have different run-off areas. And we should try and, for the fans to understand the sport, for drivers to understand the racing, shouldn't affect what's on the other side of the kerb.”

 

 

Alonso:
 

Fernando Alonso was involved in an incident with Kimi Raikkonen in Austin that went unpunished at the time. Subsequently Masi told the drivers in the Mexico briefing that the Alpine driver leaned too much on the Finn, and that Raikkonen was also in the wrong for completing a pass off track. Alonso been left frustrated by a few decisions this year.

“I think we are all agreed that we need more consistency, we need black and white rules,” he said. “Because when they are grey, sometimes you feel you are benefitting from them, and sometimes you’ve been the bad [guy] or the idiot on-track again.

“It’s better when it’s black and white. Let’s see if we can improve altogether. I think it’s not only an FIA issue, it’s drivers, teams, FIA, we need to work together to have a better rule.”

Asked if the Friday discussion had made things clearer, he said: “It depends. Obviously when they explain it, they say why they do this, with the reasons. OK, understandable, but we are all saying why other times you thought the opposite? But they are always right. That is the problem!”

 

 

Llando Norris:

 

Like others Lando Norris was in two minds as to where the limits now stand.

“I think some things are a bit more clear, some things not,” he said. “I think what is clear is that not every incident will be the same, even if it looks identical, so it's hard to know what the different circumstances are.

“I think most things were cleared up, but it's hard to kind of ever give a definite point and say this is what you can and can't do.”

Drivers have appreciated the “let them race” principles that have been in use in recent years, and which Masi confirmed were applied by the stewards to the Turn 4 incident in Brazil. However, they don't seem to be applied consistently.

 

 

Russell comes across as very eloquent and to the point.

Edited by flyboym3, 21 November 2021 - 12:07.