73 replies to this topic

[prty]

That already happened in Silverstone and Hungary.

Was gonna say that

[TheFish]

I'd like to know what point you are trying to make with that response. And yes, I do know which incident that probably refers to but I don't get the reference.

You were mocking the penalty in Silverstone, I was pointing out that the penalty in Monza was also inconsequential.

[Requiem84]

I never said there was.

Why bring it up then in a topic about a crash deciding the championship?

[TheFish]

Because the thread was about the future, not the past.

[Arska]

You were mocking the penalty in Silverstone, I was pointing out that the penalty in Monza was also inconsequential.

 

Lewis put Max's life in real danger by risking a high speed crash. Monza crash was questionable if a penalty was even needed, it certainly had no chance of sending Lewis to tires to have a 51G crash. If anything, Monza penalty was reasonable, Silverstone penalty was not.

[YamahaV10]

The Championship is not over yet. Hamilton needs to win all three remaining races, which would make (with Brazil) four wins in a row. And four wins streaks are not easy to achieve, even with a dominant car.

That's only if Max finishes 2nd. One bad pit stop , one bad qualifying and that's it. Ham. will be lapping the 2*nd place car.

[Requiem84]

Because the thread was about the future, not the past.

Spa is also in the past, you’re still sipping from that victory champagne?

[TheFish]

Lewis put Max's life in real danger by risking a high speed crash. Monza crash was questionable if a penalty was even needed, it certainly had no chance of sending Lewis to tires to have a 51G crash. If anything, Monza penalty was reasonable, Silverstone penalty was not.

Let me guess, a max fan?

Thankfully Lewis had got out of it because otherwise he would have ended up in the fence,” he added.

[garoidb]

I believe the OP is referring to a deliberate crash in the style of Senna/Prost which directly settles the championship, as opposed to one incident among many.

 

A lot of championships could have had a different champion if one crash or breakdown or moment of misfortune didn't happen. It's all part of racing, sometimes you lose because of things outside of your control. And sometimes you lose because of things you could have controlled of course, even if someone else got the blame. That should be treated very differently than one driver looking at the championship table and purposely taking out a competitor to claim the title.

 

It's not going to go away. I suspect that even the FIA can now see the mess that exists. It was instantly obvious to many but it is now too late. 

[Fastcake]

Can F1 and the rulebook handle auxiliary crashes? teammate vs championship contender, sister team driver, next year contracted driver, etc?
Random driver can crash out a contender. fully at fault, and nothing can be done. yes, some will hate him, his professional reputation will suffer/change. But the championship is finished.

That would be a case for the old bringing the sport into disrepute clause.

[TheFish]

Spa is also in the past, you’re still sipping from that victory champagne?

The victory champagne today has tasted beautiful. Not salty at all, unlike for some 😋

Silverstone hasn’t decided the season, neither has Spa. Bringing one up repeatedly doesn’t make it so. Occasionally a bit of balance is needed.

[Requiem84]

The victory champagne today has tasted beautiful. Not salty at all, unlike for some 😋

Silverstone hasn’t decided the season, neither has Spa. Bringing one up repeatedly doesn’t make it so. Occasionally a bit of balance is needed.

Whether it will decide the season will only be known after Abu Dhabi.

The only fact is that it resulted in a 25 point swing. It doesn’t matter whether such a swing / incident happens in the first race or the last race.

[IridiumBoy]

You could claim Silverstone was Max's fault. OK. But he did nothing wrong at Hungary and still lost all those points.

 

If Lewis wins this WDC for 5,10 or even 15 points it will be only thanks to Bottas

 

Just like Alonso lost the WDC in 2012 thanks to Grosjean in Spa

[ClubmanGT]

Whether it will decide the season will only be known after Abu Dhabi.

The only fact is that it resulted in a 25 point swing. It doesn’t matter whether such a swing / incident happens in the first race or the last race.

 

Yes, it's a long season.

 

For me the more interesting aspect of this is how a hypothetical punishment is dished out. In isolation, the Schumacher looks like the harshest penalty the sport has ever dished out. I get the feeling we'll get some backwards-facing historical context only when it happens again.

 

Imagine if Max or Lewis is taken out by Bottas or Perez respectively in T1 at Abby Dabby. How do you even begin to process that when the one incident you can cite precedent against in a championship context was so black and white? 

 

E: Yes, I know, Suzuki 1990. How relevant should that be? In the context of that, Schumacher was unduly and harshly punished. It would be a total mess. 

Edited by ClubmanGT, 14 November 2021 - 23:14.

[Collombin]

In isolation, the Schumacher looks like the harshest penalty the sport has ever dished out

Jerez 97?!!!??? You have to be kidding. The punishment was laughable because to all intents and purposes there wasn't one. Points deduction? No. Wins and race results taken away? No. Race bans for the start of 1998? No. Oh, but they did cross out the number 2 against his name in the 1997 table. Devastating.

[Arska]

Let me guess, a max fan?

Thankfully Lewis had got out of it because otherwise he would have ended up in the fence,” he added.

 

I will allow you to guess. No. I don't like either one of them, they're both a-holes to me. I can admit that I want Max to win just to have something new in WDC.

[ClubmanGT]

Jerez 97?!!!??? You have to be kidding. The punishment was laughable because to all intents and purposes there wasn't one. Points deduction? No. Wins and race results taken away? No. Race bans for the start of 1998? No. Oh, but they did cross out the number 2 against his name in the 1997 table. Devastating.

 

He was excluded the results of a title he almost won. I think most World Championship contenders would probably find that a pretty bitter pill to swallow after a year of graft. Professional athletes are wired differently, and people who are driven to be the very best often take that kind of thing completely differently to you or I.

 

Let us not forget McLaren was allowed to race on following Spygate and even won a driver's championship in 2008. If I was working for TTE in the mid-1990s I would have felt a bit miffed. 

[Collombin]

McLaren was fined an eye watering amount though, and didn't Mosley admit that 99% of the fine was because Ron? That seems harsh to me! Not a patch on the Tyrrell 1984 kangaroo court though.

Of course, if Schumi had won the 1997 title and had that taken away then the punishment could be seen in a much different light - but I doubt he saw losing a 2nd place standing as any big deal.

Edited by Collombin, 15 November 2021 - 00:19.

[r4mses]

McLaren was fined an eye watering amount though, and didn't Mosley admit that 99% of the fine was because Ron? That seems harsh to me! Not a patch on the Tyrrell 1984 kangaroo court though.

Of course, if Schumi had won the 1997 title and had that taken away then the punishment could be seen in a much different light - but I doubt he saw losing a 2nd place standing as any big deal.

 

I'm pretty sure the fact he won a few more WDC later on helped to overcome the sadness of losing that 2nd place ,)

[djparky]

Can F1 and the rulebook handle auxiliary crashes? teammate vs championship contender, sister team driver, next year contracted driver, etc?
Random driver can crash out a contender. fully at fault, and nothing can be done. yes, some will hate him, his professional reputation will suffer/change. But the championship is finished.

It's unlikely to happen, the Merc and RBR are substantially faster than everything else, so they'll only come near other cars when lapping them

[Clatter]

Judging by how all the teams pulled over and let Hamilton blow by all weekend this doesn't look like it will be a problem

With the speed delta along the straight they had no chance to prevent an overtake.

[Clatter]

He was excluded the results of a title he almost won. I think most World Championship contenders would probably find that a pretty bitter pill to swallow after a year of graft. Professional athletes are wired differently, and people who are driven to be the very best often take that kind of thing completely differently to you or I.

Let us not forget McLaren was allowed to race on following Spygate and even won a driver's championship in 2008. If I was working for TTE in the mid-1990s I would have felt a bit miffed.

He was guilty of a deliberate crash, he could have been left in the championship and the result that counted wouldn't have changed. He should have had a multi-race ban at the very least.

[w00dy]

It's unlikely to happen, the Merc and RBR are substantially faster than everything else, so they'll only come near other cars when lapping them

 

Montoya crashed into Schumacher while being a lap down behind the safety car, if I remember correctly. Genuine accidents happen.

 

But what we see curently is everyone is very careful. No wheel-to-wheel between Bottas and Verstappen. The sea of cars just parts for Lewis to climb back to the top from Nth place

[Go_Go]

Let them race... Why not?!