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RBR Flapping wing


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#1 Ivanhoe

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:06

Since RBR’s wing is being discussed more than the Merc’s wing in the Mercedes’ rear wing thread, please discuss Red Bull’s wing here. Is it flapping because they’re trying to find some performance or is it just a design / construction flaw?

 

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#2 w1Y

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:08

So few questions:

Is it legal if it happens in qualy or race?
Does it create any performance benefit?
Why would they continue with a mechanical peice thay is so unreliable?
Could it be helping with something else?

#3 Maustinsj

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:09

They’re trying to replicate whatever Mercedes are doing - unsuccessfully.

Prepare for protests in the last few races. If you can’t beat ‘em, get ‘em chucked out.

#4 Ali_G

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:14

So few questions:

Is it legal if it happens in qualy or race?
Does it create any performance benefit?
Why would they continue with a mechanical peice thay is so unreliable?
Could it be helping with something else?


That has to be causing havoc with the rear aero. Can’t possibly lead to any benefit.

#5 TomNokoe

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:17

Is it legal if it happens in qualy or race?


It happened in Brazil quali. It still passes the tests.

I wonder what would happen if Verstappen was in the turbulent air of another driver with DRS open? I feel like that would exacerbate the effect.

#6 OO7

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:18

The RB rear wing supports also flex quite a bit:

QJhbqf1.gif



#7 TennisUK

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:18

As it stands if it behaves in this manner in a race or quali it is illegal. Afaik this behaviour has not been seen in quali (at least not anything like this) or the race, if it does I assume someone will complain, particularly if RB take pole.

The timing of this problem is interesting too, as it corresponds with Red Bull complaining about the Merc rear wing and then also having to tape up their wing in each of the three events prior to today.

I think they introduced a new rear wing in Austin and have been having some difficulty getting it to work. Is this a flexible rear wing like the one they allege Mercedes have that has a corollary issue that causes oscillation related to the DRS actuator, or is it simply a new wing that is searching for some other benefit (and seems to need some finessing to work)?

Edited by TennisUK, 20 November 2021 - 12:20.


#8 Scotracer

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:19

The aerodynamics of the DRS are complicated. Flutter is an interesting phenomenon and related to centre of pressure Vs centre of gravity of the wing. Depending how they've fitted it to the end plates, and how the DRS actuator mounts to it, it could be induced. If it's only happening on one of the cars, it's even more interesting.

It should not be providing a benefit as effectively it's using energy to do that (i.e. drag).

#9 Requiem84

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:25

They’re trying to replicate whatever Mercedes are doing - unsuccessfully.

Prepare for protests in the last few races. If you can’t beat ‘em, get ‘em chucked out.


You do realize that Mercedes (alleged) trick is with the lower flap?

#10 CountDooku

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:26

If this happens in qually or the race Merc must 100% protest.

#11 paipa

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:27

In any case, let's dust off the black and orange flag for this cute little violently flapping object.

#12 Paa

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:28

So few questions:

Is it legal if it happens in qualy or race?
Does it create any performance benefit?
Why would they continue with a mechanical peice thay is so unreliable?
Could it be helping with something else?

 

I believe the driver is free to open and close the DRS within the zone as many times as he wants to. So as long as it happens within the zone, it should be legal. I mean the moving itself is not illegal. But maybe someone can judge it as dangerous and make it illegal on that grounds.

 

Multiple aerodynamics experts said it is rather a disadvantage, creating all kind of non-wished vortexes. I did not see anyone saying this would mean an advantage (including Merc). So I would say this is a bug, not a feature.

 

That is a concern, and not clear at the moment why can't they fix it. Probably they are experimenting with something and can not get it right. But in this case they should have a safe version for qualy and race, but we have seen last week they didn't.

 

Again, it can not be a help by itself. But it can be a byproduct of something else which is helping. However, I haven't seen any plausible viable so far. 


Edited by Paa, 20 November 2021 - 12:30.


#13 TennisUK

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:28

If this happens in qually or the race Merc must 100% protest.

Agreed. I don’t think that would automatically precipitate an RB protest either, since I think RB would only do if they have evidence. And I’m not sure they do.

#14 TennisUK

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:29

I believe the driver is free to open and close the DRS within the zone as many times as he wants to. So as long as it happens within the zone, it should be legal.


I don’t believe so, because the driver is not controlling the oscillation.

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#15 P123

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:37

Certainly puzzling as to why they can't get on top of the issue after several weekends.  Budget cap biting, or are they trying some new things that are causing other issues?



#16 TennisUK

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:46

Surely they are trying something else, and the flappy wing is a corollary issue? No one else on the grid has this issue nor can I recall having seen it before. Now we see it every weekend as well as seeing the wing taped up every time, too.

Edited by TennisUK, 20 November 2021 - 12:47.


#17 Mat13

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:46

In any case, let's dust off the black and orange flag for this cute little violently flapping object.


That was my first thought- looks like that’s coming off at some point on the pit straight.

#18 Winterapfel

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:46

Is RB trying to force an investigation in rear wings (aiming to impact Merc) by purposely and obviously making their own wing do crazy stuff?

#19 ANF

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:46

I don’t believe so, because the driver is not controlling the oscillation.

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That's a clear rule breach, isn't it?

Edited by ANF, 20 November 2021 - 12:49.


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#20 TennisUK

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:48

Is RB trying to force an investigation in rear wings (aiming to impact Merc) by purposely and obviously making their own wing do crazy stuff?


Seems like an odd thing to do, given they will be chasing their tails with this rather than setting up their cars.

#21 krapmeister

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:51

Surely they are trying something else, and the flappy wing is a corollary issue? No one else on the grid has this issue nor can I recall having seen it before. Now we see it every weekend as well as seeing the wing taped up every time, too.

 

Renault has had this issue before, either 2019 or 2020



#22 Requiem84

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:54

That's a clear rule breach, isn't it?


Surprised Mercedes isn’t protesting it, seems like RB is giving them a free shot at goal.

#23 SenorSjon

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:55

It isn't helping we have 5 races in 6 weeks.

#24 TennisUK

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:57

Renault has had this issue before, either 2019 or 2020


Fp1 and fp2, Austria 2019. It was a hardware failure and was fixed overnight. This has happened for four weekends in a row so looks more like an inherent design or perhaps configuration flaw.

#25 TennisUK

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 12:58

Surprised Mercedes isn’t protesting it, seems like RB is giving them a free shot at goal.


It *could* be Mercedes are keeping their powder dry lest anything silly happen.

#26 Chmielinski

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:00

Mercedes doesn't really  have a leg to stand on this if it only happens in practice. What are they gonna do, exclude him from FP results?



#27 Paa

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:04

I don’t believe so, because the driver is not controlling the oscillation.

7-EC8-D8-C8-C009-43-A7-92-A5-272-BBC3-BB

 

Interesting, I was not aware of this.

I think it is a matter of interpretation, as I could translate this sentence in more than 1 way. But I would rather not start interpreting this, as I'm not a native speaker.  :)



#28 Augurk

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:06

Mercedes doesn't really  have a leg to stand on this if it only happens in practice. What are they gonna do, exclude him from FP results?

Exactly. Is there any footage of this ever happening in quali or the race? 

So far I've only seen FP footage.



#29 TennisUK

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:06

Mercedes doesn't really have a leg to stand on this if it only happens in practice. What are they gonna do, exclude him from FP results?


That’s why they wouldn’t bother unless it happens in quali or a race. for them having RB waste their time chasing problems rather than optimising their car is a perfect way to spend free practice.

#30 TennisUK

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:07

Interesting, I was not aware of this.
I think it is a matter of interpretation, as I could translate this sentence in more than 1 way. But I would rather not start interpreting this, as I'm not a native speaker. :)


I think the use of the words ‘any’ and ‘only’ make it pretty unambiguous. Particularly when used in connection with the rules regarding bodywork remaining static.

#31 w1Y

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:19

Surprised Mercedes isn’t protesting it, seems like RB is giving them a free shot at goal.


Patience. They absolutely will if it happens in qualy and particularly q3.

I think merc also know that the fia will allow them to fix it like they have done previously.

What merc really want is for it to happen in the race. Red Bull won't be able to use the drs all race then

#32 Requiem84

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:33

It’s shocking RB can’t fix this.

#33 ARTGP

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:34

Exactly. Is there any footage of this ever happening in quali or the race? 

So far I've only seen FP footage.

 

It did happen in Brazil qualifying on 1 of the cars in Q3 on the second runs.


Edited by ARTGP, 20 November 2021 - 13:34.


#34 smitten

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:34

It's probably more a case of won't as it obviously linked to something they think will give them a performance increase.



#35 ARTGP

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:35

It’s shocking RB can’t fix this.

https://www.autospor...r-wing/6801473/

 

Not only has this led to damage to the actuator and mechanism but over the course of the last few races it has required the team to fix and patch up the rear wing on several occasions, as cracks have appeared in various locations on the wing due to the stress induced.

This may just be down to the parts coming towards the end of their lifecycle, something that’s become more of an issue for the teams this year due to the expanded calendar and working against the backdrop of a cost cap.

However, it may also be down to the team pushing the envelope with its wing set-up to find extra performance from the DRS, all while having to work within the bounds of this year's homologation system.

The DRS – or rear wing adjuster as it’s referred to in the technical regulations – was one of the parts frozen going into 2021, with only two options allowed to be homologated to account for different downforce levels. 


Edited by ARTGP, 20 November 2021 - 13:36.


#36 Requiem84

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:36

It's probably more a case of won't as it obviously linked to something they think will give them a performance increase.


They’d be stupid to go for a performance gain and make it so obviously visible.

They’re smarter than that.

#37 ARTGP

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:36

It's probably more a case of won't as it obviously linked to something they think will give them a performance increase.

 

I would expect Merc to pester the FIA about it soon enough as they alluded to in Brazil. 



#38 gillesfan76

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:36

These guys have more things going on with their wing and more gaffa tape holding it together than a rusty trailer in Alabama yet they’re worried about some imaginary scrapes on the rear wing of the Mercedes.



#39 smitten

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:38

They’d be stupid to go for a performance gain and make it so obviously visible.

They’re smarter than that.

There's no evidence it's an illegal performance gain they are chasing, and lots of teams get failures when they push the envelope.



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#40 Requiem84

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:42

There's no evidence it's an illegal performance gain they are chasing, and lots of teams get failures when they push the envelope.


It’s much more questionable than the lower flap flexing, since the DRS gap is mandated at a maximum distance.

#41 shure

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:42

These guys have more things going on with their wing and more gaffa tape holding it together than a rusty trailer in Alabama yet they’re worried about some imaginary scrapes on the rear wing of the Mercedes.

This is a bit of an odd statement, tbh.  If they suspect there's something strange happening with a competitor's car, then why should they ignore it just because they have problems of their own?  



#42 shure

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:44

There's no evidence it's an illegal performance gain they are chasing, and lots of teams get failures when they push the envelope.

you don't need evidence of illegality to voice a concern: Merc didn't have evidence that RB were doing anything illegal earlier in the year yet they still made plenty of noises about it.  They suspected it, of course, just like RB clearly do now.  But it's not a RB thing, that's for sure



#43 EndlessMotion

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:45

It's surprising to see a team like Red Bull struggling with this for so many weekends now. They're usually the masters of any flexing and having things engineered to perfection. Whatever is going on it, it's clear they're really pushing the limits (and some). I suspect it will be under control in qualifying. They're probably trying something in FP with the wing each week that they're just not on top of yet and then have to dial things back for qualifying and the race to stay legal.

 

But it does appear Mercedes have played a blinder in terms of unleashing this pace at this stage of the season. Understandable Red Bull have been forced to start scrambling around late in the day to try and exploit some more performance and haven't got as refined a system as Mercedes. Yet.



#44 Rumblestrip

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:50

I wonder if this is related to running more wing at the last few races while at the same time also pushing the engines, so the DRS mechanism is having to cope with greater forces?



#45 TennisUK

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:50

It did happen in Brazil qualifying on 1 of the cars in Q3 on the second runs.

And they were then allowed to tape up the wing with FIA permission.

#46 gillesfan76

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:51

Interesting, I was not aware of this.

I think it is a matter of interpretation, as I could translate this sentence in more than 1 way. But I would rather not start interpreting this, as I'm not a native speaker.  :)

 

I don’t see how it’s open to interpretation. Seems clear. The angle of incidence of the uppermost closed section - can that be anything other than the top flap? I can’t see it being anything else, can anyone else?

 

Only be commanded by direct driver in put using control electronics in Art. 8.3 - any change in angle of incidence has to come from the driver and using the DRS control mechanism. What possible other interpretation can there be?

 

If this wing flaps while DRS is activated, and the slot gap doesn’t increase past the limits then I don’t see any performance gains but it still doesn’t meet the wording of the requirements.



#47 cpbell

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:52

The aerodynamics of the DRS are complicated. Flutter is an interesting phenomenon and related to centre of pressure Vs centre of gravity of the wing. Depending how they've fitted it to the end plates, and how the DRS actuator mounts to it, it could be induced. If it's only happening on one of the cars, it's even more interesting.

It should not be providing a benefit as effectively it's using energy to do that (i.e. drag).

Centre of pressure ahead of centre of mass?



#48 TennisUK

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 13:53

you don't need evidence of illegality to voice a concern: Merc didn't have evidence that RB were doing anything illegal earlier in the year yet they still made plenty of noises about it. They suspected it, of course, just like RB clearly do now. But it's not a RB thing, that's for sure


There was a pretty clear video of the Red Bull wing from Barcelona, and that was the one being used at the time to justify the change in load test (that all teams had several weeks to comply with).

#49 flyboym3

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 14:03

you don't need evidence of illegality to voice a concern: Merc didn't have evidence that RB were doing anything illegal earlier in the year yet they still made plenty of noises about it. They suspected it, of course, just like RB clearly do now. But it's not a RB thing, that's for sure

Jeez your misinformation needs to be stop.
The rear wing cocking was on the global feed. They were found to have a flexible rear wing mount.

#50 ARTGP

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 14:04

Jeez your misinformation needs to be stop.
The rear wing cocking was on the global feed. They were found to have a flexible rear wing mount.

So was Mercedes....all the world feed showed was that the RB wing moved a little more than the Merc wing. The regulations do not say the wings have to be identical.

Edited by ARTGP, 20 November 2021 - 14:05.