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#1 mcjohnson

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Posted 21 November 2021 - 20:12

A home to discuss the nature and ramifications of Tests undertaken on the rear wings between Qualifying and the Race in Qatar.

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#2 mcjohnson

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Posted 21 November 2021 - 20:12

Anyone with any inside knowledge on how the tests went down is warmly welcomed!

#3 OneAndOnly

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Posted 21 November 2021 - 20:19

Only Sparky comes to mind. Does anyone know how tests were conducted? Forces?

#4 Dutchrudder

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Posted 21 November 2021 - 20:30

Did RedBull make any wing modifications in parc ferme between quali and the race start today?

#5 alframsey

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Posted 21 November 2021 - 20:47

I read somewhere that a 20kg increase in the downward pull on the tests on the rear wing, I’m really not technically minded so I doubt I’ve done it justice or maybe even got it close to being right but, that’s what I can offer.

I hope it finally puts to bed any accusations about the rear wings of any team.

#6 smitten

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Posted 21 November 2021 - 20:54

Did RedBull make any wing modifications in parc ferme between quali and the race start today?


Ted said they didn't. Presumably as they changed wings directly before qualifying- and the sceptics amongst us may think that was because they knew the FIA was going to do the additional 'informational' tests.

#7 Ivanhoe

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Posted 21 November 2021 - 20:56

Ted said they didn't. Presumably as they changed wings directly before qualifying- and the sceptics amongst us may think that was because they knew the FIA was going to do the additional 'informational' tests.

I think they went for a higher df wing, a least for Max they did.



#8 smitten

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Posted 21 November 2021 - 21:03

I think they went for a higher df wing, a least for Max they did.


Yes. Just notable that this higher df wing didn't have the same problems that have plagued them the last three weekends and particularly through free practice. As ever, there may be correlation but we fans don't really know the causation.

#9 EndlessMotion

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Posted 21 November 2021 - 23:11

I believe Horner was talking to Sky on Friday or possibly Saturday morning saying that the new wing tests would be using loads up to 70-80kg I think he said. Applied across the wing at specific points to check for flexing beyond the limit. The way he was talking about it was like he was pretty excited/happy that the FIA had decided to introduce the new test, as if he was almost expecting (probably more hoping) them to find something with Mercedes. Didn't hear anyone really speaking about it after then to be honest and presumably nothing has been found with the wings being run this weekend.

 

In Red Bull's case I'm pretty sure the higher downforce wing they went with simply isn't capable of doing whatever it is Red Bull have been trying with the FP wing. Could be something as simple as a different mechanism that opens the DRS flap, but I highly doubt they magically came up with a fix just before qualifying after struggling with it throughout the practice sessions. Something they're trying to gain from but haven't refined yet. Just my guess anyway.



#10 thefinalapex

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Posted 21 November 2021 - 23:15

I saw a tweet from albert farega(sorry if i mispelled his name) that there would be a new td for the saudi weekend.



#11 mcjohnson

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 07:35

I saw a tweet from albert farega(sorry if i mispelled his name) that there would be a new td for the saudi weekend.


Surely not; any teams that fell foul of such a TD would need time to adapt the design of their RW to meet the directive - exactly as RW were afforded earlier in the season. Any new TD would likely come with a 4 week grace period.

#12 OO7

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 07:37

Surely not; any teams that fell foul of such a TD would need time to adapt the design of their RW to meet the directive - exactly as RW were afforded earlier in the season. Any new TD would likely come with a 4 week grace period.

You would think so if the F.I.A wanted to be fair, but then again it's the F.I.A.


Edited by OO7, 22 November 2021 - 08:03.


#13 Requiem84

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 07:54

It also depends on the content of the previous TD, which we never get to see.

The FIA may have included instructions that going forward flexing is scrutinized more closely (hence dots on wings) and that the new grace period will be x weeks.

We simply don’t know.

#14 OO7

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 08:04

It also depends on the content of the previous TD, which we never get to see.

The FIA may have included instructions that going forward flexing is scrutinized more closely (hence dots on wings) and that the new grace period will be x weeks.

We simply don’t know.

That's a fair point.



#15 TennisUK

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 08:23

If they were to introduce a new directive with, say 1 day or five days notice (which would differ condsiderably from the leeway afforded earlier in the year) then there would be considerable accusations of foul play by the FIA. I cannot see it being likely or feasible, because many teams would find compliance in such a short timescale at the end of a season (and budget) with two races in a week several thousands of miles from home somewhat non-trivial.

Edited by TennisUK, 22 November 2021 - 08:24.


#16 Requiem84

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 08:26

If they were to introduce a new directive with, say 1 day or five days notice (which would differ condsiderably from the leeway afforded earlier in the year) then there would be considerable accusations of foul play by the FIA. I cannot see it being likely or feasible, because many teams would find compliance in such a short timescale at the end of a season (and budget) with two races in a week several thousands of miles from home somewhat non-trivial.

 

Like I said, if the previous RW Directive specifically noted the grace periods for any following increased testing procedures, the teams would be aware of this since the beginning of this year. 

 

The FIA may have included such wording to discourage teams from trying to go down the flexing avenue any further. If a team would then still decide to go this route, the associated risk would be for their own account. 



#17 TennisUK

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 08:49

That wouldn’t make them any more feasible at this time of year, it’s a case of having to be realistic. Capped budgets exhausted, employees thousands of miles away from manufacturing base, two races in 7 days, etc etc. There comes a point when trying to enforce a new test ceases to be about simply creating new tests of technical compliance and instead becomes a tool to manipulate the championship. And for all the reasons above, that is what it would be. A month ago? Very different. Even if some cars could pass a new test without changes it would still make the accusations of favouritism even louder.

A problem for Mercedes is that I don’t think Red Bull would care about a championship win being tarnished by accusations of institutional favouritism (because it wouldn’t really impact their brand), but I do think Mercedes would care.

Edited by TennisUK, 22 November 2021 - 08:50.


#18 TheFish

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 08:59

According to the BBC -

 

 

And governing body the FIA introduced a new load test in Qatar to check this out. It had no regulatory value; it was part of trials the FIA are running ahead of next season. But the Mercedes wing - the same one they used in Brazil, they say, unchanged - passed it easily.

 

Feels like Red Bull are crying because Merc outsmarted them.



#19 Ivanhoe

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 09:03

According to the BBC -

 

 

Feels like Red Bull are crying because Merc outsmarted them.

My feeling is the Merc wing wasn't even flexing to begin with and Red Bull were clutching at straws



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#20 OO7

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 09:04

According to the BBC -

 

 

Feels like Red Bull are crying because Merc outsmarted them.

I'll keep my eye on that because it's what I would have expected, new load tests for next year, but we'll see as Requiem84 has made a valid point.



#21 TennisUK

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 09:04

I think most of the paddock is laughing at Horner at the moment.

#22 Requiem84

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 09:06

I think most of the paddock is laughing at Horner at the moment.

 

They should also be laughing at Adrian Newey and his team, as they are the ones who came up with the suspicions. Horner is just being the (poor) communication man. 

 

It's a bid odd that a designer with such knowledge and experience could completely get the flexing accusation wrong somehow. 



#23 TennisUK

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 09:20

They should also be laughing at Adrian Newey and his team, as they are the ones who came up with the suspicions. Horner is just being the (poor) communication man. 

I think the Paddock has a lot of respect for Newey, I doubt they are laughing at him.



#24 Requiem84

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 09:21

I think the Paddock has a lot of respect for Newey, I doubt they are laughing at him.

 

Then they shouldn't laugh at Horner either. Horner obviously isn't the guy who is studying the Mercedes himself and then going public. Horner is just the mouthpiece of his technical department for this specific matter. 



#25 george1981

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 09:26

They should also be laughing at Adrian Newey and his team, as they are the ones who came up with the suspicions. Horner is just being the (poor) communication man. 

 

It's a bid odd that a designer with such knowledge and experience could completely get the flexing accusation wrong somehow. 

 

 

Newey isn't necessarily wrong about the flexing. The quick FIA test didn't find a problem but it's often been mentioned that is hard to create a static test that is representative of the forces on the wings at full speed. 

 

It is ironic that Redbull have been accused on creating flexi wings for years but are now pointing the finger at Mercedes. 



#26 TennisUK

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 09:38

Then they shouldn't laugh at Horner either. Horner obviously isn't the guy who is studying the Mercedes himself and then going public. Horner is just the mouthpiece of his technical department for this specific matter. 

I'm not sure about that; it doesn't (thus far) bare the hallmarks of a genuine forensic investigation of the sort you might expect Newey to undertake. For example, looking at the acceleration data at Interlagos (where most of the speed advantage Mercedes had came early on the straight) shows pretty plainly that it's unlikely to be aero dependent so much as engine dependent. It looks to be such a poorly conceived investigation that it feels more like management charged Newey with finding a problem with the wing rather than the Newey having identified a smoking gun and provided it to management. Indeed, the hyperbolic and cherry picked speed differences he used suggest to me that it was more of a public relations exercise that back-fired spectacularly badly than any genuine attempt to unlock another team's technical advantage. Just like the front wing innuendo and the inlet-plenum innuendo.

 

This is backed up by the smoking gun that has entered the public domain - the photo with the shaving rash - which is deeply unconvincing in so much as the geometry makes no sense if what they are suggesting is true.

 

In retrospect, perhaps it would have been wiser to have Newey spend his time looking into Red Bull's very visible rear wing problems rather than getting lost down a rabbit hole which, it appears, has reached a dead end.


Edited by TennisUK, 22 November 2021 - 09:39.


#27 w1Y

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 09:40

Be interesting to see the mercs straight line speed at jeddah.

#28 jcbc3

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 09:50

In the famous words of Bart Simpson: "Prepare to be dazzled".



#29 TennisUK

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 09:52

Be interesting to see the mercs straight line speed at jeddah.

Pretty sure it will be very strong.



#30 statman

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 12:52

[Andreas Haupt] F1: Mercedes says their rearwing is "rock-solid" after first tests conducted with 2 weights of 35 kg on 2 positions of the wing.

 

35 kg? Really?



#31 Zoe

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 12:55

IF (in bold, capital letters) any designer worth his salary thinks of a secret way to circumvent the regulations and devise a mechanism / construction that allows the wing to adjust itself beyond the allowed methods, would certainly design it in a way that the regular, known tests would not reveal, no?



#32 TennisUK

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 13:00

2x 35kg is 70kg - which is what Christian Horner said would constitute 'taking this very seriously':

 

 

“I think it will be more than 20 kilos, I think you would probably be closer to, split across the wing it’s probably going to be 70/80 kilos and it will be ramped up in stages.

 
“So you will be able to measure the deflection. It’s great that the FIA are being proactive, they’re looking at it.
 
“Our concern isn’t so much here, where straight-line speed isn’t the premium that it is at potentially Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi, so we are glad that they are taking this very seriously.”
 
No doubt these weights are rogue weights.

Edited by TennisUK, 22 November 2021 - 13:01.


#33 Heyli

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 13:01

 

2x 35kg is 70kg - which is what Christian Horner said it would be and would constitute 'taking this very seriously':

 

 
No doubt these weights are rogue weights.

 

This is just bound to backfire to RedBull in some form!



#34 Requiem84

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 13:03

This is just bound to backfire to RedBull in some form!

 

Fully expecting RB to fail this test in Jeddah now :D



#35 TennisUK

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 13:10

Fully expecting RB to fail this test in Jeddah now :D

I wonder if we'll see RBs wibbly wing again if there are any more stringent tests - I'd suggest that we probably won't.



#36 flyboym3

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 13:17

Ted in the post qualification notebook episode said the general feeling amongst the teams was that they wouldn't have any issues.

In the post race show or notebook ted or can't remember who said that no flexing was visible of the lower plane when the drs is open or closed so he wasn't convinced, said something about he would expect to see more daylight.

#37 TennisUK

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 14:19

In the post race show or notebook ted or can't remember who said that no flexing was visible of the lower plane when the drs is open or closed so he wasn't convinced, said something about he would expect to see more daylight.

That's the thing - there is a mandated 15mm (or whatever it is) gap between the two planes. It's MUCH easier to see a small change visibly where the gap is small like that compared to how, say the Red Bull was bending in Barcelona.

 

That's one of the reasons I thought Horner's story was nonsense to begin with.



#38 YamahaV10

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 15:28

I think the Paddock has a lot of respect for Newey, I doubt they are laughing at him.


Don't try and be objective in the latest Red Bull ridicule thread.

Red Bull is just doing their job. With the championship on the line , I'd sure hope Red Bull is doing everything they can to try and get Mercedes on something. Like Mercedes did to them earlier in the year.
.

#39 YamahaV10

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 15:33

According to the BBC -


Feels like Red Bull are crying because Merc outsmarted them.


Merc failed a wing spec test in Brazil. Breaking the rules and getting caught doesn't sound like outsmarting to me

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#40 YamahaV10

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 15:38

My feeling is the Merc wing wasn't even flexing to begin with and Red Bull were clutching at straws


The straight line acceleration points to a wing stalling somehow. That's all they know.

It could be rear suspension related. Well probably get there after the wing has been ruled out

#41 TennisUK

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 16:13

The straight line acceleration points to a wing stalling somehow. That's all they know.

It could be rear suspension related. Well probably get there after the wing has been ruled out

No. The quicker acceleration they saw at Interlagos actually points very strongly to the power unit, since low drag won't impact acceleration as much as it does top speed. We know why Merc had good power at Interlagos.

 

Higher top speed is to do with the tricksy suspension (and power), which I suspect took quite a while to optimise because the car was quite a handful at the start of the year. 


Edited by TennisUK, 22 November 2021 - 17:08.


#42 mstar

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 16:20

The tests where brought forward for possible tests next year.  There was NO penalty for passing or failing those.  They was purely for FIA to firm up their testing procedures which they want to do next year (or not).

At no point where they relevant for this year.  The reason i think RB wanted these was simply to put into the minds of FIA that "MAYBE" if merc fails they see that its possible they flexing more than other teams.

Problem is FIA had no intention to tell the teams who passed the new load tests or failed.  Unless RB asked to find out what happened to merc, which is a no no so this wouldnt happen.  So it was really a a non issue.  

 

The directive does not allow a sudden different change in method for testing rear wings for this season without giving teams notice (like it did to RB earlier this season).  

Its a non-story just blown up by Moaner again.  It had no relevance to the race or the next 2 races.  


Edited by mstar, 22 November 2021 - 16:22.


#43 YamahaV10

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 17:54

No. The quicker acceleration they saw at Interlagos actually points very strongly to the power unit, since low drag won't impact acceleration as much as it does top speed. We know why Merc had good power at Interlagos.

Higher top speed is to do with the tricksy suspension (and power), which I suspect took quite a while to optimise because the car was quite a handful at the start of the year.


All we have is a theory as to why Merc was faster in Brazil.

But there is questionable logic in it. If Mercedes could be world beaters by changing just the ICE , then why didn't they spread this advantage out through the season and take new ICE's every 5th race or something ? Why would they wait till the last 4 races if this advantage was available all along ? It doesn't make sense

#44 JustNotFastEnough

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 19:11

You have the eyes of pro's, and amateur internet sleuths viewing multiple angles of the Merc rear wing, in HD, 4k, and 8K photography, and film. Despite all these eyes, nobody can spot the alleged Flexing Wing. This makes Christian Yawner look and sound like a paranoid clown. Red Bull IMO are guessing, and guessing badly. When Verstappen fans can't even see the flexing, it's time to call it a day.



#45 YamahaV10

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 19:15

You have the eyes of pro's, and amateur internet sleuths viewing multiple angles of the Merc rear wing, in HD, 4k, and 8K photography, and film. Despite all these eyes, nobody can spot the alleged Flexing Wing. This makes Christian Yawner look and sound like a paranoid clown. Red Bull IMO are guessing, and guessing badly. When Verstappen fans can't even see the flexing, it's time to call it a day.



That's rich considering we are barely 2 weeks removed from Mercedes being disqualified for having an illegal wing.

#46 jcbc3

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 19:31

That's rich considering we are barely 2 weeks removed from Mercedes being disqualified for having an illegal wing.

 

Stop it. Just stop. You sound more and more dumb every post you make of this crap. There, I said it.



#47 ARTGP

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 19:33

Fully expecting RB to fail this test in Jeddah now :D

 

Which would be fine because their are no consequences to my knowledge. It's an exploratory test. To drive regulation for next season and beyond.



#48 ARTGP

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 19:35

The tests where brought forward for possible tests next year.  There was NO penalty for passing or failing those.  They was purely for FIA to firm up their testing procedures which they want to do next year (or not).

At no point where they relevant for this year.  The reason i think RB wanted these was simply to put into the minds of FIA that "MAYBE" if merc fails they see that its possible they flexing more than other teams.without giving teams notice (like it did to RB earlier this season).  

Its a non-story just blown up by Moaner again.  It had no relevance to the race or the next 2 races.  

 

Exactly, it seems like RB are not certain, and as RB cannot touch the Mercedes.....they've found a way to make the FIA do it. Horner sounded relieved. They were obviously anxious about this and don't want foul play to decide the championship. So atleast now if they lose, they won't have to wonder if the Merc RW was questionable. Everybody wins.


Edited by ARTGP, 22 November 2021 - 19:36.


#49 JustNotFastEnough

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 19:40

That's rich considering we are barely 2 weeks removed from Mercedes being disqualified for having an illegal wing.

 

By 0.2mm? That's how much they failed the wing test, plus Mercedes had mitigation for 0.2mm. Given Red Bull have been repairing their rear wing in Parc fermé, for wings if judged by Mercedes standards would have also been disqualified, but I digress. Back on topic, the rear wing flexing is not seen in the real world. Even by you. :lol: 


Edited by JustNotFastEnough, 22 November 2021 - 19:51.


#50 OneAndOnly

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 19:42

By 0.2mm? That's how much they failed the wing test, plus Mercedes had mitigation for 0.2mm. Given red Bull have been repairing their rear wing in Parc fermé, for wings if judged by Mercedes standards would have also been disqualified, but I digress. Back on topic, the rear wing flexing is not seen in the real world. Even by you. :lol:

Is there any official data by how much Mercedes actually failed the test? I remember only Toto saying it when he was very angry. It sounded like random number he pulled out of his head.