Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Picci leaving Sauber due to Vasseur and team-sale due to Belgian GP


  • Please log in to reply
46 replies to this topic

#1 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 12,700 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 29 November 2021 - 15:32

I know that Pascal Picci leaving Sauber could fit in the Alfa-thread, and that the (now stopped) sale of the team could fit in the Andretti-team thread.
 
However, I've never seen someone state so clearly that they decided to sell and leave the sport due to a specific happening, but reading Autosport's article on Pascal Picci here, I'm quite surprised on how openly Picci talks about things. His reason for leaving the team being "I do not want to be associated with the management of Fred Vasseur in the future", one of the reasons he mentioned was Alfa and driver choices. Almost feels like Picci didn't want Bottas in the end.

 

The more notable part of the article for me, is how, while there certainly seems to be more reasons for it, on of the main reasons that the Sauber-owners decided to sell and get out of F1 was the Belgian GP "race", which gave Williams lots of points. That it's still an "open wound" and led to them looking for a buyer.

 

I can't say I've ever seen this is motorsport, I know actions and/or lack of actions have consequences. I also know that teams like Manor went bust in large parts due to Sauber getting more points in wet and somewhat chaotic GP (slightly ironic). But I can't say I've seen a team/owners just deciding that something was too stupid/unprofessional, and due to that they are looking to sell and get out. Can't even say that I remember many drivers doing the same either. I guess F1 should be happy that the owners these days are more professional and more locked in than before. If this had been some of the 90's (or 80's) team owners, I wouldn't be surprised if the team had just disappeared.

 

I guess the reason for me making the new thread is that I am wondering if this has happened before? I'm sure it has and I don't remember something that I should remember, but has there been teams selling and getting out due to how the sport have been handled?



Advertisement

#2 pacificquay

pacificquay
  • Member

  • 4,238 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 29 November 2021 - 15:35

He wanted Giovinazzi to stay, that didn't happen, so he resigned.

 

Honourable.



#3 Dolph

Dolph
  • Member

  • 9,869 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 29 November 2021 - 15:40

So essentially he is saying he did not want Bottas? I would have thought signing a driver like Bottas is a win for a tail end team. Sauber is achieving nothing, but somehow keeps pocketing top 3 WDC drivers.

Edited by Dolph, 29 November 2021 - 15:42.


#4 Dolph

Dolph
  • Member

  • 9,869 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 29 November 2021 - 15:41

He wanted Giovinazzi to stay, that didn't happen, so he resigned.

Honourable.


But a valid reason to quit a job? I find that childish.

#5 Viryfan

Viryfan
  • Member

  • 3,308 posts
  • Joined: June 12

Posted 29 November 2021 - 15:54

But a valid reason to quit a job? I find that childish.

 

not really, he was in higher place in a the hierarchy versus Vasseur, Rausing decided to side with Vasseur so he felt his authority has been weakened.



#6 Risil

Risil
  • Administrator

  • 45,697 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 29 November 2021 - 15:56

Another interesting thing is the extent of the bad blood generated by F1's (very bad) decision to award points for the Belgian Grand Prix that never took place. I suppose typical F1, only Sauber complain as they're the only ones who have anything to fear from Williams, and they're balanced out politically by the stroke of good luck that went Grove's way.



#7 Radion

Radion
  • Member

  • 2,467 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 29 November 2021 - 15:59

Gio didn't do nothing literally in his three years for Alfa. His race pace was bad especially compared to Kimi. He never improved, it was pointless to continue with him

#8 johnnyw

johnnyw
  • Member

  • 1,191 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 29 November 2021 - 16:05

Gio has been good only in single lap pace time to time, hes has been absolutely horrible for the main thing (races) where the points are counted and hasnt shown any progress in form thru last 3 years. So not really suprised he got replaced, Zhou cant do much worse in races. For alfa its no brainer specially when team got a lot of sponsor money with him.


Edited by johnnyw, 29 November 2021 - 16:07.


#9 JRodrigues

JRodrigues
  • Member

  • 1,390 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 29 November 2021 - 16:19

From my understanding the problem was not choosing Antonio, but not going for a Ferrari Driver Academy driver.

 

 

While Picci has nothing against Zhou, the team’s 2022 choice does mark a departure from the previous close alliance that the team had with Ferrari as part of its Alfa Romeo association, and had led to the presence of Antonio Giovinazzi for the past three years.

"The way in which the drivers were chosen was one of the points that broke the table between me and the current management,” explained Picci.



#10 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 14,469 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 29 November 2021 - 16:25

Is it just me or did anyone else never heard of him before?



#11 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 19,908 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 29 November 2021 - 16:44

I guess the reason for me making the new thread is that I am wondering if this has happened before? I'm sure it has and I don't remember something that I should remember, but has there been teams selling and getting out due to how the sport have been handled?

To me it doesn't sound like Sauber took the decision in protest against how the sport handled the weather at Spa. I think they took it because Williams scored "points that took away almost any chance of [Sauber] regaining their position in the constructors' championship". Sauber have been eight in the constructors' championship the last couple of years. Now they will be ninth and they will probably loose millions of euros as a result.

I don't remember why Minardi was sold, but I remember Paul Stoddart being upset during the 2005 "race" at Indianapolis because Jordan were about to score four points more than Minardi. The two teams were fighting over last place in the constructors' championship; it was only halfway through the season (just like Spa 2021) but Stoddart knew they wouldn't be able to score four points in the remaining races. At the end of the year the team had been sold and became Toro Rosso.

By the way, this Picci quote was interesting: “I was placed in the minority and I drew my conclusions.” I wish he had elaborated...



#12 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 12,700 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 29 November 2021 - 16:49

From my understanding the problem was not choosing Antonio, but not going for a Ferrari Driver Academy driver.

 

Yup. Seems like he really wanted the normal deal to resume. They choosing one driver (so either Bottas or Zhou) and Ferrari choosing the other driver.



#13 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 12,700 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 29 November 2021 - 16:50

To me it doesn't sound like Sauber took the decision in protest against how the sport handled the weather at Spa. I think they took it because Williams scored "points that took away almost any chance of [Sauber] regaining their position in the constructors' championship". Sauber have been eight in the constructors' championship the last couple of years. Now they will be ninth and they will probably loose millions of euros as a result.

 

Due to how the Belgium GP was handled. I mean, he specifically mentions "the three laps behind safety car". Not just "They scored more points", as in the Manor-situation. I read it as the reason why Williams scored more, not just that they did score more.



#14 Broekschaap

Broekschaap
  • Member

  • 291 posts
  • Joined: September 16

Posted 29 November 2021 - 16:56

He wanted Giovinazzi to stay, that didn't happen, so he resigned.

 

Honourable.

It could have been. But why say in the press "I do not want to be associated with the management of Fred Vasseur in the future". That is not a neutral goodbye.



#15 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 19,908 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 29 November 2021 - 16:58

Due to how the Belgium GP was handled. I mean, he specifically mentions "the three laps behind safety car". Not just "They scored more points", as in the Manor-situation. I read it as the reason why Williams scored more, not just that they did score more.

Yeah, Williams scored ten points at Spa which they wouldn't have done under normal circumstances. (But interestingly, they had scored ten points in the previous round in Hungary as well!)



#16 Dolph

Dolph
  • Member

  • 9,869 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 29 November 2021 - 17:02

Really sounds like the owners decided to side with Vasseur on driver choice and Picci's ego couldn't handle it.


Edited by Dolph, 29 November 2021 - 17:02.


#17 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 16,804 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 29 November 2021 - 17:02

Maybe he wanted Schumacher in the other seat?



#18 Dolph

Dolph
  • Member

  • 9,869 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 29 November 2021 - 17:17

Possibly. Or Illot

#19 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 19,908 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 29 November 2021 - 17:21

It could have been. But why say in the press "I do not want to be associated with the management of Fred Vasseur in the future". That is not a neutral goodbye.

According to Michael Andretti the deal never happened because "at the 11th hour, control issues changed". Unless I'm mistaken, both Picci and Vasseur were on the board of directors, so maybe Picci was in favour of selling the team whereas Vasseur wanted to remain in charge of operations? Maybe there was a dispute and Picci "was placed in the minority" and left? I dunno.



Advertisement

#20 FLB

FLB
  • Member

  • 20,360 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 29 November 2021 - 17:31

Orlen's sponsorship was also recently renewed, as was Kubica's role as reserve driver.

 

Just saying.

 

 

https://www.sauber-g...-orlen-in-2022/


Edited by FLB, 29 November 2021 - 17:32.


#21 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 20,842 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 29 November 2021 - 17:34

The more notable part of the article for me, is how, while there certainly seems to be more reasons for it, on of the main reasons that the Sauber-owners decided to sell and get out of F1 was the Belgian GP "race", which gave Williams lots of points. That it's still an "open wound" and led to them looking for a buyer.

 

I can't say I've ever seen this is motorsport, I know actions and/or lack of actions have consequences. I also know that teams like Manor went bust in large parts due to Sauber getting more points in wet and somewhat chaotic GP (slightly ironic). But I can't say I've seen a team/owners just deciding that something was too stupid/unprofessional, and due to that they are looking to sell and get out.

 

This sounds like absolute bullshit.

 

not really, he was in higher place in a the hierarchy versus Vasseur, Rausing decided to side with Vasseur so he felt his authority has been weakened.

 

This sounds more believable.



#22 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 32,858 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 29 November 2021 - 17:36

Due to how the Belgium GP was handled. I mean, he specifically mentions "the three laps behind safety car". Not just "They scored more points", as in the Manor-situation. I read it as the reason why Williams scored more, not just that they did score more.

 

Even without Spa, Williams would be ahead of them this year.



#23 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 2,694 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 29 November 2021 - 17:57

"The way in which the drivers were chosen was one of the points that broke the table between me and the current management,” explained Picci.

 

The key words in there are: "one of." And as Chairman, he is senior to Vasseur, so make of that what you will... As always, there's more going on behind the scenes than we know about.



#24 Baddoer

Baddoer
  • Member

  • 3,041 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 29 November 2021 - 19:51

Team of clowns. Turning down Honda deal was their biggest mistake.



#25 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 16,804 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 29 November 2021 - 20:03

Team of clowns. Turning down Honda deal was their biggest mistake.

 

I don't think Honda would have reached the same success without partnering with an elite team. So I don't think that would have made a difference.   Williams have a Mercedes in the back....


Edited by ARTGP, 29 November 2021 - 20:03.


#26 TennisUK

TennisUK
  • Member

  • 13,288 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 29 November 2021 - 20:09

Reading between the lines it sounds like he wanted to stay close to Ferrari, while the rest of the board didn’t mind moving away slightly. That has ramifications beyond a driver.

#27 loki

loki
  • Member

  • 8,289 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 30 November 2021 - 02:28

Is it just me or did anyone else never heard of him before?

I still don’t know who the bloke is.



#28 RA2

RA2
  • Member

  • 2,234 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 30 November 2021 - 03:20

I don't think Honda would have reached the same success without partnering with an elite team. So I don't think that would have made a difference. Williams have a Mercedes in the back....


At least 2020 would not have been a bad year, but for sure the Alfa Romeo deal would not have happened.

#29 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 16,804 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 30 November 2021 - 03:35

At least 2020 would not have been a bad year, but for sure the Alfa Romeo deal would not have happened.

 

Depends on how you look at it. Instead of a torrid 2020, they would have just had a torrid 2018 with Honda (I wonder how that would have slowed Leclerc's career...). Then Honda would have pulled out in '21 and it would be extremely unlikely that Sauber could pull off what RB have done continuing the engines. So Sauber would have been screwed for '22 as well. 


Edited by ARTGP, 30 November 2021 - 03:42.


#30 RA2

RA2
  • Member

  • 2,234 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 30 November 2021 - 08:57

Depends on how you look at it. Instead of a torrid 2020, they would have just had a torrid 2018 with Honda (I wonder how that would have slowed Leclerc's career...). Then Honda would have pulled out in '21 and it would be extremely unlikely that Sauber could pull off what RB have done continuing the engines. So Sauber would have been screwed for '22 as well.


It was meant that Sauber would have been the second or third Honda team with torro rosso and red bull

#31 DeKnyff

DeKnyff
  • Member

  • 3,946 posts
  • Joined: November 13

Posted 30 November 2021 - 09:42

Team of clowns. Turning down Honda deal was their biggest mistake.

 

Siding with Ferrari doesn't seem like a bad long term bet, though. Even if, just like every other big team, they have their ups and their downs.



#32 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 22,405 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 30 November 2021 - 11:25

I still don’t know who the bloke is.

Me neither, but it sounds like he was Ferrari's man at Alfa/Sauber.  Traditional Ferrari-style politics!  

 

As for whether any team has left F1 in Spa GP debacle type circumstances, surely Ferrari must have THREATENED to leave in the past.  After all, it was standard Enzo tactics whenever anything wasn't how he wanted it!



#33 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 2,694 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 30 November 2021 - 11:30

Is it just me or did anyone else never heard of him before?

 

 

I still don’t know who the bloke is.

There's nothing better than a discussion about someone we've never heard of making a statement we don't understand about events of which we know nothing.



#34 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 22,405 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 30 November 2021 - 12:03

There's nothing better than a discussion about someone we've never heard of making a statement we don't understand about events of which we know nothing.

:lol:  That's what the internet is for!    How did we ever manage before?



#35 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 19,908 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 30 November 2021 - 12:06

I still don’t know who the bloke is.

 

Me neither, but it sounds like he was Ferrari's man at Alfa/Sauber.  Traditional Ferrari-style politics!

I think he was a Longbow Finance/Sportpro/M[arcus] E[ricsson] Promotions man:
"Sauber’s new chairman Pascal Picci sits on Sportpro’s board next to Karl-Johan Persson and Finn Rausing" https://www.forbes.c...rs-from-sweden/

He replaced Peter Sauber as chairman when Longbow bought the team in 2016.



#36 ForzaFormula

ForzaFormula
  • Member

  • 1,981 posts
  • Joined: April 17

Posted 30 November 2021 - 12:14

If you think the only reason he left is because of driver decisions then you are naive. There was a power war behind the scenes with Vasseur probably on various different levels of disagreements etc.



#37 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 14,469 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 30 November 2021 - 12:53

If you think the only reason he left is because of driver decisions then you are naive. There was a power war behind the scenes with Vasseur probably on various different levels of disagreements etc.

 

Vasseur had prior experience with Cyril, so knew how to wage this war.



#38 New Britain

New Britain
  • Member

  • 3,840 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 30 November 2021 - 14:28

Me neither, but it sounds like he was Ferrari's man at Alfa/Sauber.  Traditional Ferrari-style politics!  

 

As for whether any team has left F1 in Spa GP debacle type circumstances, surely Ferrari must have THREATENED to leave in the past.  After all, it was standard Enzo tactics whenever anything wasn't how he wanted it!

In the past Fezza have done more than threatened. The petulant crybabies of motor sport actually boycotted races in 1964 and 1976, and have threatened many times to leave altogether if they did not get their way on technical regulations or on receiving a disproportionately large portion of the annual FOM payout to teams.

https://www.enterf1....ts-and-boycotts



#39 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 12,700 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 30 November 2021 - 14:36

I think he was a Longbow Finance/Sportpro/M[arcus] E[ricsson] Promotions man:
"Sauber’s new chairman Pascal Picci sits on Sportpro’s board next to Karl-Johan Persson and Finn Rausing" https://www.forbes.c...rs-from-sweden/

He replaced Peter Sauber as chairman when Longbow bought the team in 2016.

 

Yup. Which makes the claim about selling more believable for me. 

Quite interesting the whole thing really.



Advertisement

#40 loki

loki
  • Member

  • 8,289 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 30 November 2021 - 14:45

If you think the only reason he left is because of driver decisions then you are naive. There was a power war behind the scenes with Vasseur probably on various different levels of disagreements etc.

Indeed.  The CEO isn’t going to be focused on mid/lower tier drivers on a team that is a Tail End Charlie.



#41 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 14,707 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 30 November 2021 - 15:04

Hardly see what the point of Sauber is if its a Ferrari B team-not a Ferrari B team. 

AT has a clear mandate as Red Bull's junior team and that works, it's a great entry point to F1 for drivers like Tsunoda and a great establishing point for a driver like Gasly to lead. Its providing Honda with data and RB with strategic benefits.

But what is the point of Sauber if its a half-arsed Ferrari B team engineering  and brand wise, but running Kubia and Zhou for $$$ and a safe harbour for someone like Bottas whose on his way down? All a bit meh. 

I think this team exists to be sold eventually. That's basically it. Picci getting in a pickle over potatoes/potatoes essentially. 



#42 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 14,182 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 30 November 2021 - 15:27

Me neither, but it sounds like he was Ferrari's man at Alfa/Sauber.  Traditional Ferrari-style politics!  

 

As for whether any team has left F1 in Spa GP debacle type circumstances, surely Ferrari must have THREATENED to leave in the past.  After all, it was standard Enzo tactics whenever anything wasn't how he wanted it!

 

If you are not happy you, should walk away ... esp if you lose a power struggle.... you should back your talents to succeed elsewhere or at something else. 

 

Life is too short to spending it dragging out losing fights with "colleagues". 

 

I wrote this not for you (its obvious you have vast experience) but for the benefit of the younger ones among us ... most people say the opposite of what I just said - that you should stick it out and blah blah blah ... but there are wrong. Most of the time its better to just walk.  



#43 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 13,293 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 30 November 2021 - 20:24

If you are not happy you, should walk away ... esp if you lose a power struggle.... you should back your talents to succeed elsewhere or at something else. 

 

Life is too short to spending it dragging out losing fights with "colleagues". 

 

I wrote this not for you (its obvious you have vast experience) but for the benefit of the younger ones among us ... most people say the opposite of what I just said - that you should stick it out and blah blah blah ... but there are wrong. Most of the time its better to just walk.  

 

You should indeed just walk away - that includes not bothering to explain anything to the press. Just move on.



#44 r4mses

r4mses
  • Member

  • 1,986 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 30 November 2021 - 20:44

If true it was about GIO having to leave, fine. Collateral damage. GIO was - sorry - a waste of a seat. Three years in F1 and I can't remember any outstanding race or quali.

 

Other 'medicore drivers' or newcomers have had their odd outstanding performance..GIO however... I cannot remember a single one. Looking at the current grind all bar GIO, TSU and LAT had their Wow-moments early on or in lower machinery. (MAZ' and MSC's machinery is so low, they got no chance for anything close to wow) 



#45 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 32,858 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:23

Hardly see what the point of Sauber is if its a Ferrari B team-not a Ferrari B team. 

AT has a clear mandate as Red Bull's junior team and that works, it's a great entry point to F1 for drivers like Tsunoda and a great establishing point for a driver like Gasly to lead. Its providing Honda with data and RB with strategic benefits.

But what is the point of Sauber if its a half-arsed Ferrari B team engineering  and brand wise, but running Kubia and Zhou for $$$ and a safe harbour for someone like Bottas whose on his way down? All a bit meh. 

I think this team exists to be sold eventually. That's basically it. Picci getting in a pickle over potatoes/potatoes essentially. 

 

I remember when F1 teams existed for their own sake, even if they were basically backmarkers.



#46 DeKnyff

DeKnyff
  • Member

  • 3,946 posts
  • Joined: November 13

Posted 01 December 2021 - 06:58

I remember when F1 teams existed for their own sake, even if they were basically backmarkers.

And those teams didn’t live long.



#47 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 14,707 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 01 December 2021 - 08:46

I remember when F1 teams existed for their own sake, even if they were basically backmarkers.

 

That would be fine too, but they're not doing that are they.