Jump to content


Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

Charles Leclerc and his current status in F1


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
351 replies to this topic

#1 MaroF1

MaroF1
  • Member

  • 327 posts
  • Joined: September 21

Posted 30 November 2021 - 20:38

Hello guys.

 

Now I know that this thread might be deeemed as reactionary and maybe useless to discuss, but I wanted to know your guys opinion on it, and do we share the same thinking or not. After 2020, when Charles quite soundly beat Sebastian, I really thought he was on Verstappen/Hamilton level. Almost every fiber of my body believed he would destroy Sainz this year (both in qualy and races), but after seeing Carlos beating Charles in Q2 in Bahrain I immedatiely started doubting myself. I was like, "how is Carlos already so close to Charles"? 

Now I know that maybe Carlos is an adaptable driver and very consistent and quick on his day, but looking at the season in whole, he has been very close(too close for my liking) to Charles almost every race(bar Spain,Silverstone,Zandvoort and USA to a certain degree) this season and quite some times he looked even quicker than him(Qatar,France,both Austrias,Mexico, even Portugal if not for the messed up strategy). This has put lot of doubts in my head that Charles is maybe not that guy that will win titles in Ferrari(unless if he has a quicker car) and that he isn't that special as maybe what people think he is(again Max/Lewis level) because it's very weird that a driver like Carlos(quick yes but not an F1 elite) is that close to him and at times beating him already in his first season at Scuderia. 

 

Lets look at stats this year:

Charles had out-qualified Carlos 13-7 and out-raced him 13-6. I know it heavily still looks in Charles's favour but Carlos has been there or thereabouts in qualy and races(lurking few tenths back in qualy and couple of seconds behind, bar the races I named above as Charles's standout performances this year).

 

I know if you don't count Monaco and Hungary, Charles would be few points down the road but you can argue Monaco was his fault(despite team not looking at the driveshaft), it was still him that binned it. Now this post is not a way to throw rocks at Charles, cause he is an exciting talent, he showed that already in 2019, having most poles and outpacing Seb early on , but I just think this season has slightly "devalued" his level in F1 at the moment.

So I made this thread so I can hear out your guys opinion, especially fellow Ferrari fans who are hopeful we can come back next year with a championship winning car, do you have full trust in Leclerc next year that he can go toe to toe with Max/Lewis and he has all what it takes to fight and win the first title in Ferrari in 15 years in equal or close cars compared to his main rivals? And what are your thoughts on him so far, and has this season(Sainz being extremely close to him, remember he got beaten by Hulkenberg in the Renault..) slightly changed your perception about Charles, or you still have 100% believe he is up there with the very best and has got what it takes.


Edited by MaroF1, 01 December 2021 - 13:59.


Advertisement

#2 Lowgrip

Lowgrip
  • Member

  • 240 posts
  • Joined: June 21

Posted 30 November 2021 - 20:53

Hello guys.

 

Now I know that this thread might be deeemed as reactionary and maybe useless to discuss, but I wanted to know your guys opinion on it, and do we share the same thinking or not. After 2020, when Charles quite soundly beat Sebastian, I really thought he was on Verstappen/Hamilton level. Almost every fiber of my body believed he would destroy Sainz this year (both in qualy and races), but after seeing Carlos beating Charles in Q2 in Bahrain I immedatiely started doubting myself. I was like, "how is Carlos already so close to Charles"? 

Now I know that maybe Carlos is an adaptable driver and very consistent and quick on his day, but looking at the season in whole, he has been very close(too close for my liking) to Charles almost every race(bar Spain,Silverstone,Zandvoort and USA to a certain degree) this season and quite some times he looked even quicker than him(Qatar,France,both Austrias,Mexico, even Portugal if not for the messed up strategy). This has put lot of doubts in my head that Charles is maybe not that guy that will win titles in Ferrari(unless if he has a quicker car) and that he isn't that special as maybe what people think he is(again Max/Lewis level) because it's very weird that a driver like Carlos(quick yes but not an F1 elite) is that close to him and at times beating him already in his first season at Scuderia. 

 

Lets look at stats this year:

Charles had out-qualified Carlos 13-7 and out-raced him 13-6. I know it heavily still looks in Charles's favour but Carlos has been there or thereabouts in qualy and races(lurking few tenths back in qualy and couple of seconds behind, bar the races I named above as Charles's standout performances this year).

 

I know if you don't count Monaco and Hungary, Charles would be few points down the road but you can argue Monaco was his fault(despite team not looking at the driveshaft), it was still him that binned it. Now this post is not a way to throw rocks at Charles, cause he is an exciting talent, he showed that already in 2019, having most poles and outpacing Seb early on , but I just think this season has slightly "devalued" his level in F1 at the moment.

So I made this thread so I can hear out your guys opionon, especially fellow Ferrari fans who are hopeful we can come back next year with a championship winning car, do you have full trust in Leclerc next year that he can go toe to toe with Max/Lewis and he has all what it takes to fight and win the first title in Ferrari in 15 years in equal or close cars compared to his main rivals? And what are your thoughts on him so far, and has this season(Sainz being extremely close to him, remember he got beaten by Hulkenberg in the Renault..) slightly changed your perception about Charles, or you still have 100% believe he is up there with the very best and has got what it takes.

 

Overreaction much?

Before this season, Leclerc had more pole positions than Verstappen. He is at 9 whilst Verstappen is at 12. Despite starting later and with a worse car.

 

Not sure about the races, but in qualifying he is a demon and would beat the current crop. Just my opinion of course.

He just needs a fast car and you will rediscover how special he is.

 

His Mercedes car is not too far away either. You will remember my post ;)

 

And what about Sainz? the forever underrated driver..


Edited by Lowgrip, 30 November 2021 - 20:54.


#3 MLC

MLC
  • Member

  • 530 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 30 November 2021 - 20:59

I think it is more that Sainz is a bit underrated. He wasn't that far off Max as teammates and had the measure of Lando. I think Charles is super quick, but maybe not quite with Lewis and Max overall. But a quick car generates confidence and reduces errors - look at Max this year. If Charles had the equal of the Mercedes and Red Bull he may not beat them over a full season, but I think he would give Lewis and Max a run for their money.



#4 Ivanhoe

Ivanhoe
  • RC Forum Host

  • 14,273 posts
  • Joined: November 15

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:01

Overreaction much?

Before this season, Leclerc had more pole positions than Verstappen. He is at 9 whilst Verstappen is at 12. Despite starting later and with a worse car.

Worse car? Lol, 7 of these poles were in 2019 when Ferrari ended almost 100 points ahead of Red Bull in the WCC. We all know these poles are marked with a big asterisk. Anyway, on topic, I think Charles is super quick over one lap, but not (yet) in Max’ and Lewis’ league on Sunday. Think we have 3 elite drivers on the grid over a race distance and they were all on the podium in Qatar.



#5 Lowgrip

Lowgrip
  • Member

  • 240 posts
  • Joined: June 21

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:04

Worse car? Lol, 7 of these poles were in 2019 when Ferrari ended almost 100 points ahead of Red Bull in the WCC.

He will certainly not waste those pole positions the way Verstappen did.

Verstappen has a metronomic way of doing things. Probably thanks to his ability to stay 24h awake to race online.
But Leclerc and Hamilton "peaks" (out of nowhere laps) are higher.

To win championships you need to qualify on pole if possible and Leclerc is very good at it. Just wait when he will have a good car.

Edited by Lowgrip, 30 November 2021 - 21:04.


#6 Astandahl

Astandahl
  • Member

  • 3,274 posts
  • Joined: June 18

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:04

Hello guys.

 

Now I know that this thread might be deeemed as reactionary and maybe useless to discuss, but I wanted to know your guys opinion on it, and do we share the same thinking or not. After 2020, when Charles quite soundly beat Sebastian, I really thought he was on Verstappen/Hamilton level. Almost every fiber of my body believed he would destroy Sainz this year (both in qualy and races), but after seeing Carlos beating Charles in Q2 in Bahrain I immedatiely started doubting myself. I was like, "how is Carlos already so close to Charles"? 

Now I know that maybe Carlos is an adaptable driver and very consistent and quick on his day, but looking at the season in whole, he has been very close(too close for my liking) to Charles almost every race(bar Spain,Silverstone,Zandvoort and USA to a certain degree) this season and quite some times he looked even quicker than him(Qatar,France,both Austrias,Mexico, even Portugal if not for the messed up strategy). This has put lot of doubts in my head that Charles is maybe not that guy that will win titles in Ferrari(unless if he has a quicker car) and that he isn't that special as maybe what people think he is(again Max/Lewis level) because it's very weird that a driver like Carlos(quick yes but not an F1 elite) is that close to him and at times beating him already in his first season at Scuderia. 

 

Lets look at stats this year:

Charles had out-qualified Carlos 13-7 and out-raced him 13-6. I know it heavily still looks in Charles's favour but Carlos has been there or thereabouts in qualy and races(lurking few tenths back in qualy and couple of seconds behind, bar the races I named above as Charles's standout performances this year).

 

I know if you don't count Monaco and Hungary, Charles would be few points down the road but you can argue Monaco was his fault(despite team not looking at the driveshaft), it was still him that binned it. Now this post is not a way to throw rocks at Charles, cause he is an exciting talent, he showed that already in 2019, having most poles and outpacing Seb early on , but I just think this season has slightly "devalued" his level in F1 at the moment.

So I made this thread so I can hear out your guys opionon, especially fellow Ferrari fans who are hopeful we can come back next year with a championship winning car, do you have full trust in Leclerc next year that he can go toe to toe with Max/Lewis and he has all what it takes to fight and win the first title in Ferrari in 15 years in equal or close cars compared to his main rivals? And what are your thoughts on him so far, and has this season(Sainz being extremely close to him, remember he got beaten by Hulkenberg in the Renault..) slightly changed your perception about Charles, or you still have 100% believe he is up there with the very best and has got what it takes.

 

Race analysis: Carlos wasn't faster in Qatar, at least not in the race, considering that Leclerc arrived behind him despite starting 13th while he started 5th. In Austria, Sainz wasn't faster. He arrived ahead because Leclerc had a contact with Gasly in the first lap (his fault) and found himself last. In Portugal Sainz was faster in quali, in the race is hard to tell because the medium tyres were terrible for Ferrari, so you can't really judge the first stint as well.

If you consider that in the races when they both finished, Leclerc is 13-5 which is a pretty huge difference.

 

Moreover, the gap between the two in quali is actually relevant when you start removing outlier sessions like:

  • Hungary --> Sainz crashed in Q2 before setting a lap time, and they used Q1 lap times which are completely useless for a team like Ferrari which can go through without 0 issues (in fact Sainz in the first 2 sectors before the crash in Q2 was slower than Leclerc)
  • Monza --> Leclerc had a significant issue related to the management of engine braking system (Ferrari changed the PU for the race)
  • Russia --> Leclerc had a penalty, didn't even do a second run on inters in Q1
  • Turkey --> Sainz had a penalty, didn't focus on quali
  • Qatar --> Leclerc had a broken chassis. According to reports, the damage was worth around 5 points of DWF - 1s per lap

When you remove these outlier sessions, you have a median gap of 0,199% and average of 0,140%. This is a significant gap.

 

Anyway, Sainz is fast, and we should move away from cross cars / years comparison. Why? It's simple. Let's look at Sainz, Ricciardo, Hulkemberg and Norris.

  • Hulkember was faster than Sainz at Renault
  • Sainz was slightly faster than Norris at Mclaren
  • Ricciardo was faster than Hulkemberg at Renault

Conclusion based on these results? Ricciardo is way faster than Norris. Reality? He has been demolished by Norris this year.

Simply, we underestimated Carlos speed because of his run at Renault, but the reality is that each driver adapt to the car differently and that can create a huge difference. Maybe if Norris joined Renault, the comparison with Ricciardo would be extremely different.

 

Going back to  Leclerc is impossible to say if he can compete with Lewis and Max. I believe it, but he needs a truly competitive car which is constant over a season, over different tracks and different sessions (race/quali). Only when he will have a competitive car, we will be able to really judge his performance compared to Max and Lewis.


Edited by Astandahl, 30 November 2021 - 21:22.


#7 LightningMcQueen

LightningMcQueen
  • Member

  • 1,053 posts
  • Joined: February 14

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:14

I think Charles will win a championship before max

#8 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 3,590 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:18

I think Charles will win a championship before max


It is possible, but we'd have to survive the meltdown that would come from him not winning this year first!

Leclerc seems to have had a below average season for him - but who knows what next season may bring.

#9 RekF1

RekF1
  • Member

  • 1,073 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:18

For some reason long posts get blacked out for me. Can someone lend me a TL;DR version please?

*How do you spell lend? Is that right?

Edited by RekF1, 30 November 2021 - 21:19.


#10 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 8,193 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:19


To win championships you need to qualify on pole if possible and Leclerc is very good at it. Just wait when he will have a good car.

he had a great car. Illegal, but great. 

And he did well in it.



#11 gpking

gpking
  • Member

  • 80 posts
  • Joined: April 21

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:20

It is possible, but we'd have to survive the meltdown that would come from him not winning this year first!

Leclerc seems to have had a below average season for him - but who knows what next season may bring.

In my opinion this has been his best season in F1.

#12 LightningMcQueen

LightningMcQueen
  • Member

  • 1,053 posts
  • Joined: February 14

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:26

It is possible, but we'd have to survive the meltdown that would come from him not winning this year first!

Leclerc seems to have had a below average season for him - but who knows what next season may bring.


I think he is a phenomenal talent.. and I think Ferrari will be well placed under the new regulations..

Just a hunch

#13 MaroF1

MaroF1
  • Member

  • 327 posts
  • Joined: September 21

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:31

Race analysis: Carlos wasn't faster in Qatar, at least not in the race, considering that Leclerc arrived behind him despite starting 13th while he started 5th. In Austria, Sainz wasn't faster. He arrived ahead because Leclerc had a contact with Gasly in the first lap (his fault) and found himself last. In Portugal Sainz was faster in quali, in the race is hard to tell because the medium tyres were terrible for Ferrari, so you can't really judge the first stint as well.

If you consider that in the races when they both finished, Leclerc is 13-5 which is a pretty huge difference.

 

Moreover, the gap between the two in quali is actually relevant when you start removing outlier sessions like:

  • Hungary --> Sainz crashed in Q2 before setting a lap time, and they used Q1 lap times which are completely useless for a team like Ferrari which can go through without 0 issues (in fact Sainz in the first 2 sectors before the crash in Q2 was slower than Leclerc)
  • Monza --> Leclerc had a significant issue related to the management of engine braking system (Ferrari changed the PU for the race)
  • Russia --> Leclerc had a penalty, didn't even do a second run on inters in Q1
  • Turkey --> Sainz had a penalty, didn't focus on quali
  • Qatar --> Leclerc had a broken chassis. According to reports, the damage was worth around 5 points of DWF - 1s per lap

When you remove these outlier sessions, you have a median gap of 0,199% and average of 0,140%. This is a significant gap.

 

Anyway, Sainz is fast, and we should move away from cross cars / years comparison. Why? It's simple. Let's look at Sainz, Ricciardo, Hulkemberg and Norris.

  • Hulkember was faster than Sainz at Renault
  • Sainz was slightly faster than Norris at Mclaren
  • Ricciardo was faster than Hulkemberg at Renault

Conclusion based on these results? Ricciardo is way faster than Norris. Reality? He has been demolished by Norris this year.

Simply, we underestimated Carlos speed because of his run at Renault, but the reality is that each driver adapt to the car differently and that can create a huge difference. Maybe if Norris joined Renault, the comparison with Ricciardo would be extremely different.

 

Going back to  Leclerc is impossible to say if he can compete with Lewis and Max. I believe it, but he needs a truly competitive car which is constant over a season, over different tracks and different sessions (race/quali). Only when he will have a competitive car, we will be able to really judge his performance compared to Max and Lewis.

 

Wasn't Carlos stuck in traffic in Qatar and that meant that Charles got on the back of him? Oh and Austria is still Leclerc's fault in the race, he punctured Gasly's left rear, despite being a small mistake, it was his mistake and the end of the day and Carlos was the better driver that race so it stays 13-6. But it's not just about the stats that I am telling you about, you can see it with a naked eye, races like Brazil and Mexico, Carlos is on Charles's ass the entire race, if not quicker than him and I expected Charles to leave him comfortably behind, at least 10~12 seconds, but it always looks like Carlos is close, or matching him. And that to me means that maybe Charles, at least in race pace isn't that good and not ready yet to go up against Lewis/Max, and let's remember Vettel beat him 10-7 I think in races in 2019, and had a good if not better race pace/tyre managment that season. I am just not currently getting that WOW factor from Charles that I hoped I would, and seeing Sainz close just changes my opinion.Not that I don't rate Carlos, I do but he will never be that F1 elite, or the very best(I rate him higher than Perez & Bottas but thats about it) and seeing him very close to Charles raises some concerns.


Edited by MaroF1, 30 November 2021 - 21:35.


#14 PlatenGlass

PlatenGlass
  • Member

  • 3,115 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:34

I think he's very good but Vettel's struggles last year flattered him a little bit. Time will tell if he can compete at the same level as the likes of Hamilton and Verstappen.

#15 Mark521

Mark521
  • Member

  • 293 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:35

For some reason long posts get blacked out for me. Can someone lend me a TL;DR version please?

*How do you spell lend? Is that right?

 

I think the OP was asking "Do you still think Charles is "Great"?  Personally I do.

And yes, you did spell "lend" correctly  :)



#16 Squeed

Squeed
  • Member

  • 1,830 posts
  • Joined: February 17

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:37

I think great talents who are secure in their place in F1 can get complacent when their car isn't performing (see Lewis circa 2008).  

I also think that Carlos is a late bloomer who is 5x the driver he was 4 years ago.  He raced Lando to a draw, and we see how Lando has thoroughly outperformed Danny Ric this season.  

Given a winning car, Leclerc knows how to win races. 



#17 F1matt

F1matt
  • Member

  • 1,842 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:38

I think Charles will win a championship before max

 

 

I still think George Russell will win the title before both of them. The lack of fluidity in the driver market may result in neither of them ever winning a title. 



#18 Requiem84

Requiem84
  • Member

  • 14,664 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:38

After Vettel inflating his stock, Sainz is now obviousky deflating it.

It looks like Leclerc's weakest season in F1 imo, and mostly because Sainz is so close while being in a new car whereas all other newcomers struggle.

#19 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 13,293 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:39

I've never rated Charles in the same league as Hamilton or Verstappen



Advertisement

#20 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 8,000 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:42

I think all things considered (speed, aggression, wheel-to-wheel racing) Charles is the only of the young drivers who is able to take on Verstappen in equal cars. Let's hope Ferrari delivers next year, and if not that he switches teams before Ferrari wears him out.

Edited by Jovanotti, 30 November 2021 - 21:43.


#21 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 32,855 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:46

It always seems that these discussions revolve around how highly rated driver x isn't far enough ahead of lower rated driver y, so driver x can't be that good. Nobody ever seems to want to bump driver y up in their estimation, only drag driver x down.

 

There's a very high quality crop of top drivers at the moment, and both Leclerc and Sainz are part of that goup. Leclerc I'd put towards the very top.

 

Now I know most will miss the point of this comparison, because the drivers I'm comparing too aren't rated that highly, but in the specific period I'm thinking of were equally part of F1's elite. I'm talking about Alesi and Berger. As teammates at Ferrari, Leclerc feels like Alesi and Sainz like Berger. Things are a lot closer at the top of F1 nowadays, but they occupy the same sort of positions.

 

I don't think Leclerc is any less of a driver than I thought of him in 2019. Sainz could have conceivably improved in that time.



#22 Venom

Venom
  • Member

  • 136 posts
  • Joined: March 18

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:51

I don’t have any worries about Leclerc. Maybe guilty of overdriving a bit at times, but my impression is he’s had the measure of Sainz for the majority of the season.

Sainz is good enough of a driver that it is to be expected he’ll have the advantage on a few occasions through a season.

Leclerc retiring at two of Ferrari’s most competitive weekends of the year also heavily flatters Sainz in terms of the championship standings. We’re talking a potential 40+ points there.

#23 Risil

Risil
  • Administrator

  • 45,697 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:53

Hello, just wanted to say that we did have a bit of discussion in the mod team about this topic. We felt it's worth having on the basis that it's a legitimate question to ask if Leclerc is part of the top elite and if opinions have changed since 2019. By way of analogy, if we had a time machine to 1999 we'd have wanted to have a similar thread about Heinz-Harald Frentzen.

However, this shouldn't be a place to collect all Leclerc news and opinions so if that happens please let one us know.

#24 Requiem84

Requiem84
  • Member

  • 14,664 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:55

The issue also is that he still doesnt seem to be consistent. His highs are high, but it feels he’s not always ‘on it’.



#25 messy

messy
  • Member

  • 5,904 posts
  • Joined: October 15

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:56

Sainz being so close to Leclerc doesn’t reflect badly on Charles, it reflects well on Carlos. At the moment.

Thing is, that could change. If Sainz improves further and actually starts beating Leclerc, then it probably threatens the notion that Leclerc is the next best thing to Max Verstappen - it hasn’t happened yet, but Sainz has been so impressive this season, coming into a new team where Leclerc is already established star and virtually matching him, that there are maybe some hints that it’s a possibility that it might happen. But that just keeps both of them on their toes so it’s a good thing, I think.

Personally I think in terms of raw ability, Leclerc is the guy who’s most likely to take the fight to Max over the next few years, slightly ahead of Sainz, Norris and Russell. But undoubtedly Sainz has probably given him a bit of a fright at times this season. I do think Leclerc has yet to put together a truly impressive season, his highs are very high but he blows hot and cold. Even in 2019.

Edited by messy, 30 November 2021 - 21:57.


#26 ConsiderAndGo

ConsiderAndGo
  • Member

  • 6,779 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 30 November 2021 - 21:58

Monza 2019 is all you need to see to know this guys the real deal.

#27 gpking

gpking
  • Member

  • 80 posts
  • Joined: April 21

Posted 30 November 2021 - 22:03

Monza 2019 is all you need to see to know this guys the real deal.

Bahrain 2019 and every Silverstone race since 2019 too.

#28 Yamamoto

Yamamoto
  • Member

  • 1,766 posts
  • Joined: April 16

Posted 30 November 2021 - 22:04

I have him number three on the current grid behind Ocon and Bottas, and probably number three for performance this year. I think he's an electrifying talent, as quick as anyone over a single lap. Unlike some others it seems, my opinion of him has gone up again this year. I would like to see whether he could match the consistency of the title contenders if the Ferrari was running at the front. I think next year the gap between him and Sainz will be more apparent. Close but decisive.



#29 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 32,855 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 30 November 2021 - 22:07

I have him number three on the current grid behind Ocon and Bottas,

 

Can't work that one out at all.



#30 ConsiderAndGo

ConsiderAndGo
  • Member

  • 6,779 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 30 November 2021 - 22:07

Bahrain 2019 and every Silverstone race since 2019 too.


Ah yeah his Silverstone race that year was just bonkers

#31 thefinalapex

thefinalapex
  • Member

  • 2,356 posts
  • Joined: July 16

Posted 30 November 2021 - 22:07

I have him number three on the current grid behind Ocon and Bottas,

 

:confused:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:



#32 Ivanhoe

Ivanhoe
  • RC Forum Host

  • 14,273 posts
  • Joined: November 15

Posted 30 November 2021 - 22:10

Not everyone seems to get Yamamoto’s dry humor. Good to have him back here!



#33 Yamamoto

Yamamoto
  • Member

  • 1,766 posts
  • Joined: April 16

Posted 30 November 2021 - 22:12

Can't work that one out at all.

 

The key is to slip a highly objectionable statement into an otherwise bog-standard opinion so that people think you're being serious.



#34 thefinalapex

thefinalapex
  • Member

  • 2,356 posts
  • Joined: July 16

Posted 30 November 2021 - 22:16

Not everyone seems to get Yamamoto’s dry humor. Good to have him back here!

 

I thought so, I had a big laugh. Thanks yamamoto :D



#35 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 16,804 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 30 November 2021 - 22:46

Speedwise. They'll never share a car so hard to say, but he does look as fast as anyone.

 

Race craft? Silverstone '19 need I say more? 

 

Wet weather?  - I need more wet races to fully form my opinion on this one. Turkey '20 comes to mind. Maybe Imola '21. Not much else.

 

Tire management? - Again, need more races to fully form my opinion. Silverstone '20 comes to mind.

 

Also, slightly OT, but I can't resist. I don't think comparing VER poles to LEC poles from '16-'19 in an era when FER/MERC had +50hp qualifying modes, and Renault/Honda did not, makes much sense. Also, both of LEC poles in '21 were taken due to red flags. LEC would probably have had a similar number of poles to Verstappen given the RB of that era.  A Red Bull car has taken from 2016-2020 a pole exactly 7 times. And those circuits were basically Monaco, Mexico, Hungary, and Brazil. All high altitude circuits or low speed circuits which took away the power unit advantage Ferrari and Mercedes had.  When are we going to stop misusing the facts, just so we can beat Verstappen with a stick? It's tiresome. 

 

 

And that's all I'll say on that. 


Edited by ARTGP, 30 November 2021 - 23:00.


#36 Cliff

Cliff
  • Member

  • 1,376 posts
  • Joined: June 16

Posted 30 November 2021 - 23:00

Leclerc is very good at not converting poles to race wins.

#37 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 28,831 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 30 November 2021 - 23:23

Charles is a strange one. I keep expecting that amazing pace (And I do mean amazing, he is probably on his good day the fastest single-lap driver in many years) which he still shows often enough to translate but he doesn't seem to get any more consistent or stop the dumb errors. TLDR version I think he often maximises the car's pace but not always the results.

 

/As for  the poles and wins, well we all know those are bollocks as no results from Ferrari in 18/19 should be taken seriously. Winning Monza with a big pile of extra illegal HP is no achievement at all.



#38 Squeed

Squeed
  • Member

  • 1,830 posts
  • Joined: February 17

Posted 30 November 2021 - 23:35

The key is to slip a highly objectionable statement into an otherwise bog-standard opinion so that people think you're being serious.

 

You just have to have your differential set right or you'll spin it.  



#39 PlatenGlass

PlatenGlass
  • Member

  • 3,115 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 30 November 2021 - 23:40

I notice a lot of people think he's maybe even faster than Hamilton or Verstappen in qualifying, even if not in the races. I'm not sure there's enough of a body of evidence for this claim. While he's quicker than Sainz, he's not beating him by an unreasonable amount in qualifying.

I think this partly comes from how much quicker he was than Vettel in 2020. But given that Sainz is doing OK compared to him this year and that Vettel generally did OK in 2019, I think it's more the case that Vettel was poor in 2020.

Also the two poles this year. They were good, but I'm not sure if either of them would have happened without the red flags so they owed quite a bit to chance (well one came from him).

It's like with George Russell. Great qualifier but let's see a bigger test first.

Advertisement

#40 mclarensmps

mclarensmps
  • Member

  • 7,035 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 30 November 2021 - 23:44

I think people on this forum are really unfair on Sainz. He's such a good driver  :well:



#41 DrivenF1

DrivenF1
  • Member

  • 987 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 30 November 2021 - 23:45

Leclerc to me is in the top five - possibly third. His one lap pace and potential are mega.

You have the proven elite - Hamilton and Verstappen. The once proven elite but jury is out whether they are still cream of the cream - Alonso. Potentially excellent - Russell. Russell has the biggest range on this list.

We have a great set of drivers as Sainz, Norris, Ricciardo, Vettel, Gasly, Bottas and Perez all follow relatively closely afterwards. The latter four have all been blown away by drivers in the elite in recent history which does invite doubt.

#42 Astandahl

Astandahl
  • Member

  • 3,274 posts
  • Joined: June 18

Posted 01 December 2021 - 00:10

Wasn't Carlos stuck in traffic in Qatar and that meant that Charles got on the back of him? Oh and Austria is still Leclerc's fault in the race, he punctured Gasly's left rear, despite being a small mistake, it was his mistake and the end of the day and Carlos was the better driver that race so it stays 13-6. But it's not just about the stats that I am telling you about, you can see it with a naked eye, races like Brazil and Mexico, Carlos is on Charles's ass the entire race, if not quicker than him and I expected Charles to leave him comfortably behind, at least 10~12 seconds, but it always looks like Carlos is close, or matching him. And that to me means that maybe Charles, at least in race pace isn't that good and not ready yet to go up against Lewis/Max, and let's remember Vettel beat him 10-7 I think in races in 2019, and had a good if not better race pace/tyre managment that season. I am just not currently getting that WOW factor from Charles that I hoped I would, and seeing Sainz close just changes my opinion.Not that I don't rate Carlos, I do but he will never be that F1 elite, or the very best(I rate him higher than Perez & Bottas but thats about it) and seeing him very close to Charles raises some concerns.


Sainz had free air for the initial part of the second stint. He still lost a lot of time. Also Leclerc has been historically “weak” in Brazil and Mexico. In Brazil he has been outqualified 3 times out of 3. In 2019 Vettel had much better tyre management in a lot of races, and this is an area where Leclerc improved a lot, as Spain and Silverstone races proved. The only races where Sainz looked faster than Leclerc and they both had same tyres and on the same strategy are France and Mexico. In the other races either he was behind in quali for some reasons, first lap contact or different strategy (thus making the comparison difficult). That said, Sainz proved to be really competitive which is good news.

Edited by Astandahl, 01 December 2021 - 00:16.


#43 alframsey

alframsey
  • Member

  • 3,869 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 01 December 2021 - 00:27

Without getting too in-depth as some people have been, here are my thoughts.

I really rate Leclerc and I have forever, he’s a great racing driver and as quick as anybody over a single lap if not quicker. I truly believe that he is the answer to Max going forward (despite some concerns which I’ll address) and we cannot forget how long max has had over him to hone his skills.

I thought this season had been poor from Charles and was expecting him to blow Sainz away but, I’ve come to think I probably didn’t rate Sainz highly enough (also Norris, which is evidence that Sainz is a great talent by how Norris is beating Ric now while being fairly even with Sainz). Sainz is, as some have said, eternally underrated.

Further I believe that Leclerc might be that kind of driver who steps up his game significantly once he is fighting at the sharp end regularly, this I truly believe.

So, I do think that Charles is the real deal and I do think he will be a thorn in Max’s side in the future.

(Not much in depth analysis but that’s the best I can do this late, after a bottle of wine and on my iPhone.).

Vive Leclerc!

Edited by alframsey, 01 December 2021 - 00:28.


#44 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • RC Forum Host

  • 7,814 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 01 December 2021 - 01:39

I rated him highly when he joined Ferrari in 2019 but in my opinion the biggest question mark about him is that he hasn’t grown much if at all as a driver since then. He seems just as error prone (4-5 crashes every year or something?) and no quicker. I think his seeming inability to learn from his mistakes will ultimately be his undoing and Sainz (whom I do rate very highly) may prove the stronger of the pair over time. Maybe being locked into a long-term contract so early might have something to do with it.

#45 HeadFirst

HeadFirst
  • Member

  • 5,562 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 01 December 2021 - 03:33

The issue also is that he still doesnt seem to be consistent. His highs are high, but it feels he’s not always ‘on it’.

 

I put much of that down to youthful exuberance, and a car that is almost fast enough. Charles is fast, and the consistency will come with experience and a better car.



#46 MattPete

MattPete
  • Member

  • 1,918 posts
  • Joined: January 00

Posted 01 December 2021 - 03:33

I think it is more that Sainz is a bit underrated. He wasn't that far off Max as teammates and had the measure of Lando...

 

I was always baffled as to why they promoted Verstappen over Sainz.  In the first four races of 2016 (before Verstappen was promoted), when they both finished a race, they finished one behind another (Sainz in front once, Verstappen in front once, so a draw), and their average qualifying difference was 0.00525 seconds (yes, 5.25 milliseconds).  And if you look at their rookie year together (2015), the difference between their average finishing positions was 0 (for those races where neither had a DNF).  That first year together, their average qualifying difference was 0.05 seconds* (50 milliseconds).  Yet, they promoted the driver with vastly underdevloped frontal lobes. 

 

* Tossed out Malaysia because it was 3 MAD standard deviations above their median qualifying difference.



#47 Dhillon

Dhillon
  • Member

  • 709 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 01 December 2021 - 03:46

I just hope Ferrari doesn’t burn him like so many talented drivers before him.

#48 Rediscoveryx

Rediscoveryx
  • Member

  • 2,418 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 01 December 2021 - 04:37

For me he’s part of a three-man group (Norris/Russell being the other two) that could potentially be on the Verstappen/Hamilton level. This year I think his drive at Austin was absolutely mega though largely under the radar.

Sainz has always been a bit underrated, so I’m not hugely surprised to see him challenge/beat Leclerc from time to time.

#49 renzmann

renzmann
  • Member

  • 3,300 posts
  • Joined: February 19

Posted 01 December 2021 - 05:07

I agree with many fellow members who have pointed out that Hamilton, Alonso and Verstappen are the proven top tier drivers.

 

Norris, Russell, Leclerc and maybe Sainz are drivers that I'd rank among those three potentially. They haven't been given the opportunity to show their talents on the same stage as those top tier drivers, obviously, so it's hard to tell what they can do. However, with the exeption of Norris, I don't see any of them performing on the same level as Verstappen right now, which is consistently quick, virtually without mistakes and maximizing points in a championship fight with Hamilton. They all have shown traits that make me doubt they could. Russell underperforms on Sunday, Sainz has been outperformed by team mates too often and Leclerc is either extremely quick or clumsy. Only Norris has never really disappointed expectations when it mattered. I'd rate him higher than Leclerc at the moment.



#50 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 8,719 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 01 December 2021 - 06:52

Monza 2019 is all you need to see to know this guys the real deal.



Last year Silverstone race, and Bahrain Q3 (on the oval one).