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DRS after yielding position?


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Poll: DRS after yielding position (66 member(s) have cast votes)

Should cars forced to yield a position have DRS deactivated for the next zone

  1. Yes (40 votes [60.61%])

    Percentage of vote: 60.61%

  2. No (17 votes [25.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.76%

  3. Something else (explain) (9 votes [13.64%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.64%

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#1 pdac

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Posted 05 December 2021 - 22:40

We've seen it many times before. A driver is ordered to let another passed in order to avoid a penalty, but they wait until just before the DRS zone so that they can re-pass straight away.

 

The question, should that be allowed? Would it be better to disable DRS for the car that has to yeild for the next zone?



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#2 MaxisOne

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Posted 05 December 2021 - 22:43

Fine with it ..  Letting a driver pass doesn't mean they should have a lasting advantage. Two can play at that game .. i cannot fault a team for exploiting the tactic



#3 w1Y

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Posted 05 December 2021 - 22:51

Nah I don't agree.

I can cut a corner to overtake someone and the give it back at the drs zone.

#4 Fastcake

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Posted 05 December 2021 - 22:59

If you follow the principle set at Belgium 08, you shouldn’t be able to use DRS for the next two zones.

#5 MaxisOne

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Posted 05 December 2021 - 23:16

If you follow the principle set at Belgium 08, you shouldn’t be able to use DRS for the next two zones.

Then why have they not carried forth that principle to this day ? (Rhetorically speaking) Was it an established regulation or simply a custom that fell out of use ?

If the intent is to prevent an immediate repass then fine.. officially change the rules at the end of the season.



#6 Myrvold

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Posted 05 December 2021 - 23:17

The question, should that be allowed? Would it be better to disable DRS for the car that has to yeild for the next zone?

 

It goes against the whole premise of it.

 

Then again, if the FIA would just grow a pair and start enforcing the actual rules instead of this... whatever they call it... thing they do now, it wouldn't be an issue. Give proper penalties for rule breaches and it'll sort itself out. 5sec penalties should be for track limit breaches when they run wide too many times etc. not for more "serious" incidents.



#7 Myrvold

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Posted 05 December 2021 - 23:19

Then why have they not carried forth that principle to this day ? (Rhetorically speaking) Was it an established regulation or simply a custom that fell out of use ?

If the intent is to prevent an immediate repass then fine.. officially change the rules at the end of the season.

 

That was more the way it should be done I feel, "lasting advantage" and so on.

I think it was V8 Supercars (back when it was called that), who tried to have a "must be disadvantaged" kind of rule. So if you went off and didn't lose anything, then that was wrong. If you went off the track, you had to actually be disadvantaged as you failed to keep the car on track.*

 

*I might be remembering wrong, this is many years ago, and I never followed V8 Supercars closely.



#8 goldenboy

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Posted 05 December 2021 - 23:32

If there's no concrete rule you would be a fool not to do it. I think it's smart to force the re pass at a spot that doesn't give your competitor DRS but they should have no DRS themself for the next zone.



#9 noikeee

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Posted 05 December 2021 - 23:35

Don't disable DRS but make it very clear this doesn't count as "giving the place back". You can't give the place back in a way to give yourself momentum to immediately regain the place, this is absolute bullshit. Goes completely against the spirit of the rule.

#10 Anderis

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Posted 05 December 2021 - 23:46

There should be a more specified guideline of how to behave after yielding the position. One should never find themselves in a more advantageous situation regarding a battle with another car after doing something illegal than they would have been in while sticking to the rules. Something like reaching a minimum time gap to the car in front- let's say the yielding is only completed after the car you've yielded to is at least 1 second in front. Probably better than "not allowed to make an overtaking attempt in the following x corners/1 lap/whatever". But maybe there's an even smarter way about it. Making it all about DRS misses part of the problem IMO.

 

Oh, and bring back DT as the minimum penalty for any infringement that results in a sporting advantage.

 

#11 MKSixer

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 02:40

While they're at it, eliminate the ability to get DRS behind lapped cars.  Lapped cars are already moving out of the way per blue flags.  Adding DRS confers an advantage to the leading car.  



#12 GTR

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 02:53

I'm of the opinion a yield should be a proper yield and it should provide the driver behind at least a 2-3 corners lead before any re-pass allowed. A yield results in an instant momentum to re-pass is not a proper one.

I thought Spa 2008 is a precedent for this thing?

Edited by GTR, 06 December 2021 - 02:57.


#13 ClubmanGT

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 02:57

Here's a better idea: Get rid of DRS. 



#14 MKSixer

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 03:08

Here's a better idea: Get rid of DRS. 

I don't mind DRS.  Just make it open to be used at any point with say X minutes of DRS available for the whole race to be deployed whenever the driver chooses.   



#15 fisssssi

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 04:20

Don't disable DRS but make it very clear this doesn't count as "giving the place back". You can't give the place back in a way to give yourself momentum to immediately regain the place, this is absolute bullshit. Goes completely against the spirit of the rule.

Exactly, how hard is it? If you give a place back, you give it back properly.

 

Otherwise anyone can pass a car off-track, 'give' the place back, then repass straight away. Good job, they have just gained a place illegally and will do it again.

 

The problem with the current rules is exactly what we saw today. Cars are going to play 'slowest wins' up the DRS line. Don't just disable DRS because that leaves open other tricks, e.g. what Hamilton did to Raikkonen at Spa all those years ago.



#16 fisssssi

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 04:33

"So let's give the position back to Hamilton. Obviously do that strategically."

 



#17 William Hunt

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 04:39

I don't know if it's technically even possible to deactivate it but that wouldn't be a good idea anyway. It's much better to forbid a driver who had to yield a position to overtake again and regain the position and the next straight and the next corner or next chicane. 

Even if DRS didn't exist the problem of a driver yielding his place at a position on the track where he could easily take it back on the next straight is a risk.



#18 goldenboy

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 05:08

I don't know if it's technically even possible to deactivate it but that wouldn't be a good idea anyway. It's much better to forbid a driver who had to yield a position to overtake again and regain the position and the next straight and the next corner or next chicane. 

Even if DRS didn't exist the problem of a driver yielding his place at a position on the track where he could easily take it back on the next straight is a risk.

That sounds like the most simple solution. There will of course be issues with that ie a Bottas or Perez purposely slowing the number 1 driver of the other team more than necessary, but it still sounds like the best option.



#19 goldenboy

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 05:52

"So let's give the position back to Hamilton. Obviously do that strategically."

 

What's wrong with saying that? You don't think merc would want to do the same if there's no rule against letting them past just before the DRS line?



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#20 Pimpwerx

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 05:53

It's simple IMO. If a car is ordered to give a position back, then they must give it back at the end of the s/f straight. 90% of the time, that's a good place to ensure that the overtaking car can retain the position. In the case of somewhere like Brazil, you can have special race notes making T4 the spot where the position must be conceded. Don't leave this up to the drivers and teams, make sure there are clear guidelines to prevent shenanigans.

 

 

After Spa 2008, this shouldn't even be a thing anymore. I can't help but think that it was able to happen because of the increasingly more-lax enforcement of the rules by Masi and the stewards. If you enforce rules consistently, you won't have to keep making these ad hoc decisions after the fact, because there would be clear driving standards. This is the mess that began in Austria 2019. Or the end of Canada 2019, if you want to pin the exact moment when the decline began.



#21 tourister46a

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 06:08

I'm of the opinion a yield should be a proper yield and it should provide the driver behind at least a 2-3 corners lead before any re-pass allowed. A yield results in an instant momentum to re-pass is not a proper one.

I thought Spa 2008 is a precedent for this thing?

 

In Spa, Hamilton passed Raikkonen on the same straight that he gave the place back on. I don't know the exact form the rule takes, though

 

Verstappen was probably planning a pass on the next straight, so maybe the precedent doesn't exactly apply. Didn't Sainz do something similar in COTA? 



#22 fisssssi

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 07:13

What's wrong with saying that? You don't think merc would want to do the same if there's no rule against letting them past just before the DRS line?

Sorry, that link should have gone into the other thread.

 

I wrote my opinion in the post above.



#23 timmy bolt

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 07:28

Don't think the rules need to change.

The overtaking driver can choose not to take the place back before the DRS line.

Ultimately it is on the driver who has to give up the place to actually give it up.

#24 Broekschaap

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 07:31

Don't think more rules will make the racing better. If the position is not really given back te stewards can have a look at it and give a 5 sec penalty if there is a lasting advantage.



#25 ForzaGTR

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 07:42

It was unsporting from Max to use DRS to retake the position, it effectively meant he didn't give the place back. Obviously nobody is surprised it happened. A simple rule tweak would sort it

#26 george1981

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 08:59

I think Alonso at Spa some time ago let someone through, but was able to keep his momentum and then passed them the next corner. I think he got a penalty for that or had to give the place back again. Basically if you're forced to give a place back you shouldn't have a lasting advantage that allows you to retake the place immediately. 



#27 pdac

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 09:41

Don't think more rules will make the racing better. If the position is not really given back te stewards can have a look at it and give a 5 sec penalty if there is a lasting advantage.

 

I hate these time penalties. If you mean 5 seconds plus giving the place back properly, then yes. But, really, time penalties are quite ineffective unless they are awarded and apply immediately. If you say "at some point you will have 5 seconds added to your time", then teams and drivers will just calculate, in advance, whether it's 'worth it'.



#28 Stephane

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 09:44

If you follow the principle set at Belgium 08, you shouldn’t be able to use DRS for the next two zones.

There was no DRS in '08, and Lewis was not asked to give the place back. He did it by himself moments after cutting the chicane.

 

Now, they discuss it with Masi and give the place back way later.



#29 Jon83

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 09:45

I think Alonso at Spa some time ago let someone through, but was able to keep his momentum and then passed them the next corner. I think he got a penalty for that or had to give the place back again. Basically if you're forced to give a place back you shouldn't have a lasting advantage that allows you to retake the place immediately. 

It was Alonso and Hamilton at Spa. Neither driver wanted to be ahead at the first corner.

 

Hamilton had DRS but that Ferrari was unbeliavable on the straight and Alonso still kept the position.

 

I think we saw the very worst of DRS in this respect yesterday. Ricciardo and Bottas were also at it IIRC.



#30 Eyeshield

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 09:49

As mentioned above, drivers should immediately face a penalty if not handing the position back immediately. This is all on the FIA.



#31 Spyker

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 09:58

Could the FIA just dictate that the driver in front has to give the place back at a certain corner, and also has to leave the racing line and leave significant room on the racing line.

 

That way it's predictable and they could brief the drivers before each race.


Edited by Spyker, 06 December 2021 - 10:00.


#32 KavB

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 10:07

I think in general you shouldn't be allowed to overtake immediately after handing back a position. It is likely a driver would not be in a position to make that immediate overtake had they done the correct thing in the first place by backing off during the initial move. If an overtake were to occur then you would still be gaining an advantage from going off track.

 

You may argue that a driver could have been in a position to overtake anyway had they backed off instead of going off track, but the uncertainty obviously comes from not backing off and is exactly why it should not be permitted.

 

It is also why I felt Spa 2008 was justified (though I know it wasn't strictly a rule back then). I don't think Hamilton would have been able to make the move he did on Raikkonen had he stayed on track, but he certainly would have been able to make an overtake later that lap.



#33 kedia990

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 10:28

Cutting a corner and gaining an advantage in a way that requires someone to concede a position doesn't happen every race, but I think it's regular enough (multiple times every season) that maybe it's worth having a more systematic and clear-cut solution?

 

Would it be worth having a designated "conceding zone" on each track that's made known to teams before each race? Kind of like the "long lap penalty" system in MotoGP, except it doesn't need be an explicitly-painted area on the track; more like "entry to turn 9" or "within X hundred meters of the apex of turn 4" or whatever. And the zone could be pre-determined in a way that (barring exceptional circumstances,) it wouldn't be possible for the conceding driver to regain the position immediately after. Additionally, enforce that it be done within one or two laps at most.

 

Pros: Deterministic approach, should result in "justice" being served for most cases, takes control away from drivers/teams trying to get clever and consequential bickering, prevents a worse version of the Ver/Ham incident from happening.

Cons: Eliminates an element of strategy, might be construed as a knee-jerk reaction, prevents the Ver/Ham incident from happening so less viewership / $$$ for Liberty.

 

Thoughts?



#34 flyboym3

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 10:32

That's too complicated.

 

They just need to write in the ruling that the position should be handed back in the last/longest drs zone of a lap and caveating it to say without keeping any lasting advantage just to cater for quirks in some tracks.


Edited by flyboym3, 06 December 2021 - 10:32.


#35 Broekschaap

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 10:33

I hate these time penalties. If you mean 5 seconds plus giving the place back properly, then yes. But, really, time penalties are quite ineffective unless they are awarded and apply immediately. If you say "at some point you will have 5 seconds added to your time", then teams and drivers will just calculate, in advance, whether it's 'worth it'.

 

I don't think we mean the same thing.

 

The opportunity given by the sporting regulations is sufficient enough in my opinion: Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the Race Director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track. (27.3)

 

If a driver gives back the position without some sneaky intention to get it back i think no time penalty is needed for leaving the track. (Dirty driving could be but not for leaving the track)

 

If a driver don't give back the position then it goes to the stewards. I don't think the stewards can order you to give back the position and a 5 second penalty seems enough to me.

 

If a driver gives back the position in a way he keeps an advantage because he can take back the position back very easily i think it's fair for the stewards to give a 5 second penalty.

 

A steward verdict will never be instant and the race director can't order so i don't see how you can immediatly apply a time penalty. But i wouldn't mind making it 10 seconds if you don't follow race director suggestion.



#36 Rinehart

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 10:36

Handing a position back instruction should include no DRS for a lap or something like that. 



#37 kedia990

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 10:41

That's too complicated.

 

They just need to write in the ruling that the position should be handed back in the last/longest drs zone of a lap and caveating it to say without keeping any lasting advantage just to cater for quirks in some tracks.

I believe the last/longest DRS zone of a lap in the case of Jeddah is the one where Verstappen tried to concede to Hamilton. And look where that got us :).

 

The caveat on "without keeping any lasting advantage" is there I think (could be wrong), but it's also there in a number of other cases; the problem is that there's scope for ambiguity. My suggestion was to be a bit more specific with an eye on eliminating ambiguity.


Edited by kedia990, 06 December 2021 - 10:42.


#38 cpbell

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 10:43

We've seen it many times before. A driver is ordered to let another passed in order to avoid a penalty, but they wait until just before the DRS zone so that they can re-pass straight away.

 

The question, should that be allowed? Would it be better to disable DRS for the car that has to yeild for the next zone?

Should not be allowed, IMO, as it reduces the penalty.



#39 Stephane

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 10:43

They should design better tracks, for a start. Those chicanes are so inviting.



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#40 Spyker

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 10:45

I believe the last/longest DRS zone of a lap in the case of Jeddah is the one where Verstappen tried to concede to Hamilton. And look where that got us :).

 

The caveat on "without keeping any lasting advantage" is there I think (could be wrong), but it's also there in a number of other cases; the problem is that there's scope for ambiguity. My suggestion was to be a bit more specific with an eye on eliminating ambiguity.

Agreed it needs to be more predictable and predetermined.

 

The guys are already computing all sorts of minute decisions, throwing in extra uncertainty for something so simple is unnecessary.

 

Take the decision out of the drivers/teams hands and eliminate any ambiguity.



#41 Anderis

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 11:13

While they're at it, eliminate the ability to get DRS behind lapped cars.  Lapped cars are already moving out of the way per blue flags.  Adding DRS confers an advantage to the leading car.  

Given how usually a lapped car will impede a leading car more than the 2nd one- because when they're close to each other, they will often cede two positions at once, I actually think the leading car is no way in an advantageous position overall and forbidding DRS will switch everything more in favour of the following car rather than make things more equal.

 

Although the leading car defending thanks to DRS it got from a lapped car might be frustrating in certain circumstances, I still think lapping works inherently in favour of the following car in general more often than not.