493 replies to this topic

[P123]

despite all the recent controversy and the fact that his on-track behaviour has spoilt things which is a shame, I still on balance want Max to win the championship. He’s been the best driver of 2021 - easily, in honesty. Without some amazing luck Lewis would be nowhere near, not least somehow managing not to suffer speed-impacting damage after being hit by Ocon and running into Max in SA. That front wing is made of bloody granite. Taking Max out at Silverstone (which I certainly am not saying was intentional) and managing to carry on and win, being able to unlap himself at Imola and turning zero points into nineteen, there have been loads. And that sense of injustice from Max’s side especially since Mercedes debuted their ‘spicy’ engine and so on….I get it. He should already be World Champion. He’s frustrated and desperate because he can see it getting away from him. I’m a massive admirer of Lewis Hamilton, but in my view 2021 has not been his year, it’s been Max’s. But I think Lewis is big favourite now.

 

Max hasn't been entirely unlucky, nor Lewis universally lucky. I'm not sure what injustice Max is meant to feel, save for Silverstone, but he'd already had Hamilton off in Imola, took a couple of nibbles at Monza, succeeding on the second, and more than a few in Jeddah.  He's not really a victim.  The Baku tyre failure was a tough one.  But every driver up and down the field has a 'what if' tail to tell.

[Augurk]

Max hasn't been entirely unlucky, nor Lewis universally lucky. I'm not sure what injustice Max is meant to feel, save for Silverstone, but he'd already had Hamilton off in Imola, took a couple of nibbles at Monza, succeeding on the second, and more than a few in Jeddah.  He's not really a victim.  The Baku tyre failure was a tough one.  But every driver up and down the field has a 'what if' tail to tell.

Max has 3: if one of Baku, Silverstone or Hungary didn't happen he would've cruised to P2 or P3 or P4 and still got the championship. 

 

Just any of these 3 would've been enough. Two of them caused by the competing team. 

He didn't push Lewis off at Imola. And to not call Lewis lucky is quite a reach after the year he's had and the couple of times he's been rescued/favoured by external circumstances beyond his control. 

[P123]

Max has 3: if one of Baku, Silverstone or Hungary didn't happen he would've cruised to P2 or P3 or P4 and still got the championship. 

 

Just any of these 3 would've been enough. Two of them caused by the competing team. 

He didn't push Lewis off at Imola. And to not call Lewis lucky is quite a reach after the year he's had and the couple of times he's been rescued/favoured by external circumstances beyond his control. 

 

Ah don't worry, I do think Max has on balance been the better driver this season.  He and Red Bull have a great hit rate for maximising their races.  I didn't say Lewis had no good luck, merely suggested it's not a one way street. 

[messy]

Max hasn't been entirely unlucky, nor Lewis universally lucky. I'm not sure what injustice Max is meant to feel, save for Silverstone, but he'd already had Hamilton off in Imola, took a couple of nibbles at Monza, succeeding on the second, and more than a few in Jeddah. He's not really a victim. The Baku tyre failure was a tough one. But every driver up and down the field has a 'what if' tail to tell.

I knew people would disagree and that’s fine - but Max has had three big moments and really only needed one of them not to happen and he’s already World Champion. The ‘injustice’ in his head (and in Red Bull’s eyes) being these moments plus the fact that Mercedes seemed to suddenly find half a second from nowhere in the closing races. Look at his reactions in Brazil park ferme, look at his dubious decision making since. He realises he can no longer really beat Hamilton in a straight fight, so he has to play dirty. It’s a shame on all counts. Not blaming Merc for doing their job and finding performance to swing it.

Edited by messy, 09 December 2021 - 21:23.

[Nemo1965]

I think that's juts because it's the latest hot topic. But a lot of the volume of posts here are "b.b..b...but Hamilton"! It can usually be worked to being Lewis's fault, and this place does try it's best with that, for well over a decade! I guess this is as much flak Max has had in quite a few years, so unusual territory. It's more comforting when it's Hamilton on the receiving end- like an annual tradition now. Maybe Max will inherit that.

If he wins too much, sure!

[bongofury]

I would like to see Hamilton get his 8th title and he could get an even tougher year next year. So a Hamilton championship for me this year, then a new winner next year.

[Anderis]

I never get that either.  Every team and driver is there to win as much as possible and works hard towards that. Mercedes and Hamilton winning as much as they have just means they have done a better job than the other teams.  It may seem boring to some, but should really be lauded for the longevity and commitment - it's not easy to remain on top for so long. 

I don't get why people don't get that.

 

I almost always root for underdogs and want the glory of winning to spread among many drivers (not just drivers, applies to other sports too) rather than a secelt few- because the first win in your life is almost always much more important than your 8th or 95th, so it's a win that brings more happiness to the world in general. If Mercedes and Hamilton win, yes, they have done a better job than other teams, I accept that and never said they didn't deserve it. Why wouldn't you accept, though, that I have a preference for someone else winning? Because I would rather see a competitive sport where it's not set in stone who wins, where multiple drivers and teams prove capable of winning. I would rather see others stepping up and proving the competition is too strong for a lasting dominance. The beauty of the sport is in that you don't know who's going to win.

Of course I don't force anyobody to use the same criteria as me and neither have I seen anyone else in this thread do and I don't express astonishment over people not conforming to my preferences. On the same basis I wonder why would anyone object using the principle I've described in choosing who to root for. There's no right or wrong way to choose your favourites in sports as it doesn't make the world a better or a worse place.

Maybe it's me being a nonconformistic weirdo accustomed to being in minority but this kind of "intolerance" and lack of understanding of other people's perspecive has always puzzled me. As I said, there's no right or wrong way of choosing who you root for and it often comes down to much more irrational things than people would like to admit. It feels weird to me to write things such as "It's a shame your preference has formed in such a way" over something as trivial as who you root for in a sporting competition and wanting change is actually one of the more rational and understandable among all possible reasons.

 

I'm pretty sure a chunk of Hamilton fans (not implying everyone who says so is a Hamilton fan, I'm using it just as an example) who now say "why would you have anything against the same guy winning over and over again" would have a pretty different sentiment about this kind of things in, let's say, 2013. It's not like it's a sentiment that only started during Mercedes domination era. I just wonder how many of the fans were on the same side then and now.

[ClubmanGT]

Max hasn't been entirely unlucky, nor Lewis universally lucky. I'm not sure what injustice Max is meant to feel, save for Silverstone, but he'd already had Hamilton off in Imola, took a couple of nibbles at Monza, succeeding on the second, and more than a few in Jeddah.  He's not really a victim.  The Baku tyre failure was a tough one.  But every driver up and down the field has a 'what if' tail to tell.

 

Hamilton ran him off the road in Monza just like he did in Jeddah, but the sausage kerb made the difference. We would have the exact same incident - Max keeping a place and having to give it back.

 

But don't for a second act like Max 'had Hamilton off' when Hamilton drove him off the edge of the track by not leaving room. It may be legal but it's not clean. 

[sniper80]

Max. He made the least mistakes, was the whole season on the same level, and Mercedes & Hamilton only got level on points because Max lost 75 points for wins in Baku, Silverstone & Hungary, the last 2 to nasty driving from the Mercedes guys.

[TheFish]

Hamilton ran him off the road in Monza just like he did in Jeddah, but the sausage kerb made the difference. We would have the exact same incident - Max keeping a place and having to give it back.

But don't for a second act like Max 'had Hamilton off' when Hamilton drove him off the edge of the track by not leaving room. It may be legal but it's not clean.

Much better than intentionally driving off the road though.

Of course, Max pushed Lewis off in Imola, Monza and Spain,

That’s before we mention brake testing.

[Mark1865]

Max. He made the least mistakes, was the whole season on the same level, and Mercedes & Hamilton only got level on points because Max lost 75 points for wins in Baku, Silverstone & Hungary, the last 2 to nasty driving from the Mercedes guys.

If the season finished in Mexico maybe, but it’s starting to seem like when the pressure is really on and the title is there to be won it’s Max who has made the mistakes and Lewis who’s been putting in the more impressive performances.

Edited by Mark1865, 09 December 2021 - 22:07.

[as65p]

If the season finished in Mexico maybe, but it’s starting to seem like when the pressure is really on and the title is there to be won it’s Max who has made the mistakes and Lewis who’s been putting in the more impressive performances.

 

Dominant, yes. Impressive, not so much. It's becoming as easy for him as it's been the last 7 years, now his car has suddenly since Brazil regained a similar advantage again.

[Mark1865]

Dominant, yes. Impressive, not so much. It's becoming as easy for him as it's been the last 7 years, now his car has suddenly since Brazil regained a similar advantage again.

Fair enough, maybe it’s more accurate to say that the Merc/Hamilton combination has been more impressive than Max/Red Bull since Brazil.

I do think Lewis has stepped up his performances but I’d agree it’s easier to do so in a car that’s clearly gained pace since Mexico.

[as65p]

Fair enough, maybe it’s more accurate to say that the Merc/Hamilton combination has been more impressive than Max/Red Bull since Brazil.

I do think Lewis has stepped up his performances but I’d agree it’s easier to do so in a car that’s clearly gained pace since Mexico.

[ClubmanGT]

Much better than intentionally driving off the road though.

Of course, Max pushed Lewis off in Imola, Monza and Spain,

That’s before we mention brake testing.

 

So it's intentional when Max is involved in any incident, but when Lewis runs someone alongside him past the edge of the track, it's accidental?

Or, let me guess, "hard but fair".

 

Monza was a consequence of Lewis being Lewis. If he had left space for Max, he wouldn't have been yeeted. He did it to Maldonado in Valencia and got the exact same outcome. 

[Timorous]

Which double standards? I said Verstappen deserved a penalty at T4 Interlagos. This has nothing to do with that, Lewis was making the corner, where Max missed it by miles, that was pretty clear cut. But we’ve been hearing all about Max driving Lewis off track and if no for Lewis backing out they would have crashed. And we’ve seen Lewis doing the exact same thing and Max yielding to prevent a crash (Austin, Jeddah) and then it’s all about Max making desperate moves around the outside. Lewis was clearly taking a wider line here to close the door on Verstappen. Nothing against it, but that applies also to situations like Imola. Talking about double standards.

Hamilton was ahead in SA and Austin. It was neck and neck in Imola so fair for Max however Monza L1 T4 Hamilton was ahead and Max still forced him off. Stewards did not look at it so obviously pushing on exit of t1 of a chicane is a-ok.

If the stewards had dinged max for some of his moves like monza T4 or spain T1 I could understand the issue if Hamilton did the same thing and nothing but that is not the case.

I could also understand if Hamilton had gained a position and was not asked to return it but that never happened either.

I don't understand why it is a problem. Pushing on exit of a corner has been treated the same for both Max and Lewis all season

[kumo7]

Now I think we have exhausted the arguments. Looking forward to the outcome.

I for one, hope Max to win. I do not believe that his driving was Schumacher-esque, nore lacks etiquette. It was a hard racing.

I think the opposition Mercedes acted smartly in actig team wise, slowing down Max and making it justifiable.

[Bartonz20let]

So it's intentional when Max is involved in any incident, but when Lewis runs someone alongside him past the edge of the track, it's accidental?
Or, let me guess, "hard but fair".

Monza was a consequence of Lewis being Lewis. If he had left space for Max, he wouldn't have been yeeted. He did it to Maldonado in Valencia and got the exact same outcome.

I mean, you can flip this for Silverstone.

Lewis had as much right to the corner in Silverstone as Max did in Monza.

You can't have it both ways.

[Chubby_Deuce]

No preference, they both seem a bit insufferable. 

[TheFish]

So it's intentional when Max is involved in any incident, but when Lewis runs someone alongside him past the edge of the track, it's accidental?

Or, let me guess, "hard but fair".

 

Monza was a consequence of Lewis being Lewis. If he had left space for Max, he wouldn't have been yeeted. He did it to Maldonado in Valencia and got the exact same outcome. 

All the pushing wide things are intentional.

 

The difference being that there were some users loudly claiming that Brazil was a mistake. They've gone quiet since Jeddah though when he made the exact same 'mistake' twice more.

 

If Monza is Lewis' fault then Silverstone is Max's fault. Had loads of space to his left that he should have left for Lewis

 

I'm not sure comparing Max to Maldonado is the outcome you really want... although after Jeddah it does feel quite apt.

[AnR]

No preference, they both seem a bit insufferable. 

 

have to agree with this one right now, get it over with and move on and hope for someone new in the mix for 2022 

[Huffer]

 

Monza was a consequence of Lewis being Lewis. If he had left space for Max, he wouldn't have been yeeted. He did it to Maldonado in Valencia and got the exact same outcome. 

 

Good grief, do we really need to keep on rehashing these incidents? It seems that every time they're brought up as the season progresses and the further away we are in time from said incidents, the more ludicrous and more detached from reality peoples interpretations become. I understand that, for the eternally aggrieved among you, there will never be an acceptable scenario in which your driver of choice can be apportioned any sort of blame.

 

But for crying out loud, try to step back and develop at least some self awareness and see how silly and quite frankly, down right pathetic this death grip on some a perceived grievance really is.

[man]

The article by the Autosport editor is embarrassing. Max imo lacks the coolness and precision in high pressure wheel to wheel situations that Hamilton has and he clearly gets a bit desperate and ragged at times with iffy decision making skills, but we haven't clear cut evidence that he is a modern day Schumacher in terms of unethical driving. We have to see how his career plays out.

The irrational dislike many have had for Lewis since his debut says more about the sad state of society in 2021 and deep rooted issues than it does Lewis. For that reason alone, I would like Lewis to win again, nothing against Max. His father Jos on the other hand...

Edited by man, 10 December 2021 - 08:19.

[QdfV]

Nice piece on The Race website, about Carlos Sainz, who is fully correct, and the opinion of Valentin Khorounzhiy below it were he argues ;

‘In this particular example, whichever side of the title battle you prefer, you should be able to concede the overwhelming probability that neither Hamilton nor Verstappen are alone to blame for all the unsavoury on-track stuff that we’ve witnessed. But I’m not convinced the polarisation Sainz speaks of allows for such a concession.’

Maybe Autsport’s Chief Editor can allow such a concession and lead by example here too. But like Valentin I’m not convinced.

[Disgrace]

I'd like to see a new champion, and at the time of writing, Verstappen has been the better driver for me. But I'll never be a fan of his.

 

It's really not healthy for the sport that the last champion who isn't Lewis Hamilton retired five years ago, which could become six.

 

Can they both lose?

[Ultraviolet]

I knew people would disagree and that’s fine - but Max has had three big moments and really only needed one of them not to happen and he’s already World Champion. The ‘injustice’ in his head (and in Red Bull’s eyes) being these moments plus the fact that Mercedes seemed to suddenly find half a second from nowhere in the closing races. Look at his reactions in Brazil park ferme, look at his dubious decision making since. He realises he can no longer really beat Hamilton in a straight fight, so he has to play dirty. It’s a shame on all counts. Not blaming Merc for doing their job and finding performance to swing it.

Up until the last three races, I would have agreed that Max had been the better driver this season. I don't now - his poor last three races have well and truly redressed that balance.

 

What about the balance of luck? Baku and Hungary were terrible luck for Max, and conversely Lewis had good luck in being able to have his car repaired during red flag periods on two occasions. His non-finish in Silverstone was caused by Lewis's mistake, and Lewis was found predominantly at fault, but as has been argued to death here, there was an option open to Max, that many drivers have taken in similar situations this year, to give Lewis more space and continue the race. He wasn't obliged to make that choice, but he could have done, and if he had, he would already be champion.

 

In Lewis's "bad luck" column, I don't count Baku, as that was his mistake. In Monza Max's error deprived him of a win he should have had. The main other legitimate cause for complaint I think he has is Spa. Points should not have been awarded there. So I would agree overall, that Max has had more bad luck than Lewis, and Lewis has had more good luck.

 

There is an unknown for me as to what the season might have looked like, if Lewis had not ceded to Max's assertive driving in some of the earlier races. Would there have been more DNFs for one or both of them in races Max won? To whom would fault have been ascribed? Might Lewis have beaten Max in some of the races Max won?

 

Just on your point about Mercedes finding extra speed in these last few races, I find that odd after all season seeing people say that the last three races would inevitably favour Merc, so Max would need to ensure he had a solid points lead going into them. Why on earth people see something suspicious in the long-predicted event happening, I don't get.

 

Until Jeddah, although I wanted Lewis to win, I would have been very happy to see Max win. I think he is a generational talent who deserves multiple titles. But after Jeddah, I think it would be bad for him and for the sport if he wins this year. He desperately needs someone to get him to rein in his worst instincts. I haven't gone off him yet like I did Schumacher and Vettel, two drivers I was excited by in their early days, but came to dislike strongly because of their poor behaviour on track. I still want to like Max. If he calms down, I could easily become one of his biggest fans once Lewis retires. But if he carries on as he is, I will want to see him lose every time.

[Rediscoveryx]

As long as the decider is clean I'm fine with either bloke winning it. 

[monolulu]

Hope for a good race on Sunday with the WDC decided at the chequered flag. Both drivers are worthy of the championship this year but I’m rooting for Lewis.

[Timorous]

Nice piece on The Race website, about Carlos Sainz, who is fully correct, and the opinion of Valentin Khorounzhiy below it were he argues ;

‘In this particular example, whichever side of the title battle you prefer, you should be able to concede the overwhelming probability that neither Hamilton nor Verstappen are alone to blame for all the unsavoury on-track stuff that we’ve witnessed. But I’m not convinced the polarisation Sainz speaks of allows for such a concession.’

Maybe Autsport’s Chief Editor can allow such a concession and lead by example here too. But like Valentin I’m not convinced.

 

The only unsavoury stuff we have seen was the brake test.

 

Most every thing else was hard racing so while I think the kind of moves Max pulled in Brazil and at T1 in SA are over the line and go from hard racing to unfair racing it is still racing and still something that can happen if you over commit or are just trying too hard. I don't see anything nefarious in those moves outside of 'I don't want to lose the place'.

[LegendInTheMaking]

Voted for Verstappen.

 

It's quite easy that Verstappen and Hamilton have been by far the best drivers of the field this year. In this respect both are worthy of winning the title. Nonetheless it's an easy choice between these two. Verstappen has gone above and beyond in maximizing his results. Except from the cripled Hungary race all his finishes were either 1st or 2nd. Some might argue he's crossed the line is some cases, but I really don't mind. I fully supported Schumacher's quest for the 1994 title in inferior equipment as well. More on that below.

 

If it wasn't for the disproportionate spread of luck Verstappen would have been champion already. Lewis gained 19 points in Imola after his error was largely nullified by the red flag. Verstappen lost at least 25 points in Baku due to the tire blowout. Verstappen lost at least 18 points -maybe even a swing of 33- due to the Silverstone incident, which also required an unscheduled engine change and cost him the opportunity to challenge in Russia. Given the late pitstop by Mercedes for Hamilton, Verstappen could have won that race if he had driven 3rd when the rain started. Also, the Hungary strike of Bottas cost him a significant amount of points. 

 

This is actually what's questioning me: how is it possible that the underdog who has had so much more bad luck in this season still is not the favored one? Obviously it might be a nationality bias on this British based forum. I'm certain that a Dutch or even a French forum would have different preferences. But still, Mercedes must have done quite a job to spin the events of this season in such a way that Verstappen is the perpetrator, where he actually has suffered from massive points losses due to faults by Mercedes drivers. 

 

This alternative interpretation shows similarities with the 1976 and 1994 seasons.

In 1976 Hunt won a controversial championship at the last race, being widely applauded for it. Looking in hindsight at the way this has been achieved, one can only draw the conclusion that without some extraordinary events - McLaren having a private test session at the new circuit for the final grandprix and, most importantly the accident of Lauda - he wouldn't even have been in contention at all in Fuji.

In 1994 Schumacher missed out on 4 race results, or 25% of the season, due to stewards decisions. Obviously, a large part of the blame lies with the Benetton team trying to stretch the rules in order to compensate for their car deficit. However, here as well it's hard to see how Hill would have challenged Schumacher if he hadn't missed out on so many results. Like Verstappen this year, Schumacher only finished 1st or 2nd. I would also dare to say that Schumacher was disproportionately punished that year, especially for what happened at Silverstone. I give you the example of Nigel Mansell. Il Leone, The Red 5, had a tendency to cross the line at times. As a Brittain driving for Ferrari this landed him with almost general appraisal for his courage and effort. In Portugal in 1989 he received a black flag. But instead of accepting this, he crashed with Senna, leading to a 1 race ban. Comparing the Mansell case to Schumacher, the 2-race ban for Schumacher was really tough. I remember well that in 1994 there was a strong anti-Benetton bias in the press. Whether this was fueled by the nationality of their main rival or the dislike for their Italian part-time playboy and full-time cheating teammanager I'm not sure about, but it certainly was harsh towards the outstanding performances of their up-and-coming driver: the excelling Schumacher. 

 

The way the press is framing the events of this season does not honor the excellent performances of both Verstappen and Hamilton. It's good to see that both drivers are explicitly saying they are solely focused on the racing and did not take the bait of discussing any controversial endings. In my opinion this season should be remembered, regardless of the eventual winner, as season in which one of the all time greatests faces the long due battle with his successor, as 1994 should have been without Imola. The historic battle between two great drivers who push each other to the absolute maximum of their performance and to the edge of what they can do. Hopefully the season finale won't disappoint us. 

[Ultraviolet]

The only unsavoury stuff we have seen was the brake test.

 

Most every thing else was hard racing so while I think the kind of moves Max pulled in Brazil and at T1 in SA are over the line and go from hard racing to unfair racing it is still racing and still something that can happen if you over commit or are just trying too hard. I don't see anything nefarious in those moves outside of 'I don't want to lose the place'.

I'm inclined to agree with this. Given that ultimately Verstappen did not benefit from those over the line moves, they have not affected the championship. However, I think the failure of the stewards to police those incidents properly is problematic in its own right and contributed to what happened in Jeddah. Had they been properly penalised, I think Max would be less inclined to keep pushing the boundaries to limits that do step well over the line.

[F1Johnny]

I don't get why people don't get that.

 

I almost always root for underdogs and want the glory of winning to spread among many drivers (not just drivers, applies to other sports too) rather than a secelt few- because the first win in your life is almost always much more important than your 8th or 95th, so it's a win that brings more happiness to the world in general. If Mercedes and Hamilton win, yes, they have done a better job than other teams, I accept that and never said they didn't deserve it. Why wouldn't you accept, though, that I have a preference for someone else winning? Because I would rather see a competitive sport where it's not set in stone who wins, where multiple drivers and teams prove capable of winning. I would rather see others stepping up and proving the competition is too strong for a lasting dominance. The beauty of the sport is in that you don't know who's going to win.

Of course I don't force anyobody to use the same criteria as me and neither have I seen anyone else in this thread do and I don't express astonishment over people not conforming to my preferences. On the same basis I wonder why would anyone object using the principle I've described in choosing who to root for. There's no right or wrong way to choose your favourites in sports as it doesn't make the world a better or a worse place.

Maybe it's me being a nonconformistic weirdo accustomed to being in minority but this kind of "intolerance" and lack of understanding of other people's perspecive has always puzzled me. As I said, there's no right or wrong way of choosing who you root for and it often comes down to much more irrational things than people would like to admit. It feels weird to me to write things such as "It's a shame your preference has formed in such a way" over something as trivial as who you root for in a sporting competition and wanting change is actually one of the more rational and understandable among all possible reasons.

 

I'm pretty sure a chunk of Hamilton fans (not implying everyone who says so is a Hamilton fan, I'm using it just as an example) who now say "why would you have anything against the same guy winning over and over again" would have a pretty different sentiment about this kind of things in, let's say, 2013. It's not like it's a sentiment that only started during Mercedes domination era. I just wonder how many of the fans were on the same side then and now.

 

Where did I say I don't accept you having a preference for another winner? I didn't even quote or refer to you in my post.  Of course anyone is entitled to their opinion on who wins and with whatever frequency. 

 

My point was more around F1 fans wanting change for change sake and that IMO the sort of work and commitment that goes into being on top is extremely impressive - when it was Ferrari and MS, when it was Red Bull and SV and now with Merc and LH.  The season has been great and I cheered when Ocon and Ricciardo won and Max has been crazy quick. There is so much vitriol out there because Merc and LH have won so much and I find it extremely impressive - that's what they are there to do, stay on top.

 

You happen to like rooting for the underdog and that's fine, and I definitely get it.  I disagree somewhat that the 95th win is not as exciting as the first (which must be amazing) and I think that's what separates the greats - they always want more. Look at the excitement successful businessmen, lawyers, artists etc have when they have a great year, win their biggest case or complete their more recent masterpiece.

 

That said, never meant to suggest that I have an issue with others wanting a more diverse P1 set of stats, but I also believe excellence should be acknowledged.

[ForzaGTR]

Hmmm how would anyone be able to prove the crash is deliberate?

It will be so difficult.

Even with all the telemetry traces and information available to them, they still concluded that Rosberg's "off" in Monaco 2014 qualifying was not deliberate (or insufficient info to conclusively say it was deliberate).

Max could invariable create a situation similar to Silverstone 2021 (with positions reversed) - and knock Hamilton out. It would be strange if the FIA penalised Verstappen with a DSQ from the championship, but an incident earlier in the season with similar consequences resulted in a 10s in race penalty. You wouldn't be able to DSQ him for that, just because it happened at the end of the season.

The only way a DSQ from the season happens, is, as I said before, if the incident is as blatant as Jerez 1997.
Jerez 1997 was instinctual from Schumacher - it looked like he was in 2 minds about whether to do it or not. Didn't look premeditated, looked very clumsy and obvious. Thats what caught him out.
Verstappen has the time and ability to make it look a lot more...."racing incident" like.

I agree, it's so hard to prove intent. It would take something so ridiculously blatant that would only require the naked eye to call it. Max isn't an idiot. If contact happens it'll be 60/40 blame at most, a margin that's too narrow to deduct points without getting the lawyers involved.

Edited by ForzaGTR, 10 December 2021 - 15:34.

[rf90]

The main reason I would prefer Verstappen to win is because I think he has done the better job all year, racing against the better race car. One-lap pace on it's own doesn't win races, race pace does. The Mercs have better race pace.

Also, if one tots up the points(as of now) of the RACES THAT BOTH Hamilton and Verstappen finished/scored in, then the totals are:- Hamilton 342.5 / Verstappen 362.5 (this is discounting sprint-race points, which I believe favours Verstappen? ).

Baku, Silverstone and Italy are the races where at least one of them didn't score/finish.

Edited by rf90, 10 December 2021 - 21:46.

[zanquis]

Based on who was the best driver over entire year, Max. Who has momentum is Lewis. The Mercedes is still very strong. Probably still the strongest but Max and Lewis making it close.

Got mixed feelings regarding decision to not give Lewis his 3rd reprimand and subsequent penalty. Damned if they do, damned if they don’t. By not doing it they are also intervening in the championship. Lewis was on 2 strikes and he and Mercedes knew it. Yet they still forgot to watch out for traffic again. If Lewis ends up winning it now, the stewards helped him imho. If he doesn’t then fine.

Lets hope for a fair race and Verstappen winner cause that would be the least controversial anyway. He got sufficient penalties almost every time and even with a extra penalty in Brazil a win would give him the title. Where a Lewis title would always be controversial on the otherside.

[zanquis]

The main reason I would prefer Verstappen to win is because I think he has done the better job all year, racing against the better race car. One-lap pace on it's own doesn't win races, race pace does. The Mercs have better race pace.
Also, if one tots up the points(as of now) of the RACES THAT BOTH Hamilton and Verstappen finished/scored in, then the totals are:- Hamilton 342.5 / Verstappen 362.5 (this is discounting sprint-race points, which I believe favours Verstappen? ).
Baku, Silverstone and Italy are the races where at least one of them didn't score/finish.

While Verstappen benefited from the sprintrace itself. The opportunity to redo his race helped Lewis in Silverstone, Monza and Brazil greatly. Without those sprintraces Max would have probably won all 3 of those. Or atleast finished in front of Lewis.

[ANF]

I voted Max, but I honestly don't care anymore. It has been so disappointing to see them either crash or go off the track as soon as they get close to each other.

[jstrains]

The WDC is already agreed ahead, like it was in 2016

[P123]

The WDC is already agreed ahead, like it was in 2016

 

It can be guaranteed a car won't break down?

[HeadFirst]

Max has to win the WDC. Red Bull has given him the car to challenge the Mercedes, and Lewis has had his most inconsistent season in recent memory. The table is set for him.

[pUs]

Given Verstappen's standard of driving in recent races it would be a big shame for the sport if that was rewarded with the title, so definitely Lewis.

 

Had you asked me earlier in the year I would have said Lewis, but Verstappen was also deserving. I'm not sure that view is easily justified of late.

Disagree completely.. a WDC is fought over a full season. All the races are equally valuable. For me, it's not decided on basis of the last two races that we happen to remember the most.

Max would be a fully deserving champ if he took it today, without question.

[Kao18]

Max has to win the WDC. Red Bull has given him the car to challenge the Mercedes, and Lewis has had his most inconsistent season in recent memory. The table is set for him.

Perhaps Lewis inconsistent season might just be related to Red Bull having given Max a car to challenge?

[TheFish]

Perhaps Lewis inconsistent season might just be related to Red Bull having given Max a car to challenge?

Well we saw in Brazil and Saudi Arabia that Max isn’t unflappable when he doesn’t have the best car. It’s easier to be serene when you have the best car.

[Kao18]

Well we saw in Brazil and Saudi Arabia that Max isn’t unflappable when he doesn’t have the best car. It’s easier to be serene when you have the best car.

Exactly my point. And Max isnt unflappable indeed, no one is.