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Verstappen v Hamilton // Senna v Prost - Parallels?


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#1 HerbieMcQueen

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 14:19

I started watching religiously once Prost left the sport and Senna joined Williams, but for those a little wiser and greyer I was wondering how similar the two styles and attitudes of the title protagonists are to those of another tense and aggressive championship fight? Superficially there's a similar unrelenting, stubborn style to Verstappen and a calculated, smoother side to Hamilton. Despite this comparison being raised in previous years, I don't personally believe we've seen such a starkly similar contrast of personalities since then, at least. How far will each one go? Discuss as you wish.

 

Note: Please try and stay on topic, driver psychology is an interesting topic that can do without asinine contributions from the obvious Autosport forum presence of the very young, the emotionally underdeveloped, or the unwell.


Edited by HerbieMcQueen, 06 December 2021 - 15:33.


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#2 flyboym3

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 14:23

I watched both and I would say that Hamilton takes the best of both Senna and Prost qualities.  He is able to switch his toolkit around accordingly that I don't think either of them could do.

 

Verstappen is too early to say but seems more similar to Schumacher rather than those 2 you mentioned.



#3 Peeko

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 14:26

There was far less contact between Prost and Senna that's for sure. Max and Lewis just can't help themselves.



#4 AmonGods

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 14:31

There was far less contact between Prost and Senna that's for sure. Max and Lewis just can't help themselves.

 

You mean Max cant cause beside Silverstone where it wasnt even 100% Lewis's fault all the other times they came close to an accident it was Max's fault.



#5 HerbieMcQueen

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 14:35

You mean Max cant cause beside Silverstone where it wasnt even 100% Lewis's fault all the other times they came close to an accident it was Max's fault.

 

I created this thread to contrast the two personalities and put forward the idea that there are potentially a lot of similarities to the early 90's between them both, not to start these nonsensical, tiresome, and childish "his fault, no his fault" back and forths.



#6 SilverArrow31

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 14:36

Its more like the relationship Shumacher and Senna should of had in the mid 90s but couldn't.

Its still odd how Hamilton is now the smooth and calculating one after what was said during his time with Button and Rosberg haha

Edited by SilverArrow31, 06 December 2021 - 14:38.


#7 TomNokoe

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 14:37

Comparing it to Senna Prost is another diversion tactic made to glorify the rivalry in a cheap attempt to ignore Verstappen's racing ethics.



#8 PayasYouRace

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 14:40

I think it’s a fair comparison. They’ve reached the bitter rivalry levels that Prost and Senna had by late 1988/ early 1989. Yes, I can also see the parallel between their personalities, though Alain only had 4 seasons extra experience on Ayrton.

However I actually thought their rivalry is more like what we might have seen between Senna and Schumacher, had Ayrton’s career reached a natural conclusion.

#9 HerbieMcQueen

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 14:41

Comparing it to Senna Prost is another diversion tactic made to glorify the rivalry in a cheap attempt to ignore Verstappen's racing ethics.

 

It's an honest question driven by the fact that I was not present to fully take in the late 80's and early 90's. Not everybody has such bitter intentions and lives their life on this forum with such a myopic and sour attitude, Mr. C.


Edited by HerbieMcQueen, 06 December 2021 - 17:42.


#10 absinthedude

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 14:43

This may go down as one of F1's great rivalries, especially if it continues for another two seasons or more at this ferocity. But I don't really see Max as being much like either Senna or Prost. He's got a Mansell-like ability for sheer speed and "never give up" attitude. But it's not mated with an ability to see the bigger picture. That said, he could develop that skill more in the coming years. Lewis has probably peaked, whereas Max has probably not. With Senna and Prost in the period 1988-90, both were at their peaks and either in the same team or both in competitive machinery. 

 

Prost was very political of course, not in the campaigning way that Hamilton is....Prost would work on getting the team to like him and work for him and to get his team-mate to doubt the team's loyalty. Look how well that worked when he was partnered with Mansell, who almost had a persecution complex.

 

What we do have in common with those years, is two generational talents currently in competitive machinery. One the established, accepted "master" and the other the challenger. Prost always had more titles than Senna even if the latter was surely the better driver by the end of Prost's career. Senna was, of course, not above being naughty on the track. So I guess there are some parallels. 

 

I am just enjoying it for what it is. Mostly hard but fair racing. Though I admit, Max pushes that at times.



#11 absinthedude

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 14:45

Its more like the relationship Shumacher and Senna should of had in the mid 90s but couldn't.

Its still odd how Hamilton is now the smooth and calculating one after what was said during his time with Button and Rosberg haha

 

Smoother and more calculating than Max. Less smooth and less calculating that Button for sure. 

 

Prost was more calculating than Senna. Senna was more calculating that Mansell. All were great drivers. We're not dealing in binaries or absolutes. 



#12 AmonGods

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 14:47

I created this thread to contrast the two personalities and put forward the idea that there are potentially a lot of similarities to the early 90's between them both, not to start these nonsensical, tiresome, and childish "his fault, no his fault" back and forths.

 

There are no similarities. Lewis, in his early years in F1 was talked about as the next Senna because of his speed. As the years passed by, he's talked as the next Prost. Meanwhile, after 7 years in F1, Max has learned nothing.



#13 Zoe

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 14:49

I think it’s a fair comparison. They’ve reached the bitter rivalry levels that Prost and Senna had by late 1988/ early 1989. Yes, I can also see the parallel between their personalities, though Alain only had 4 seasons extra experience on Ayrton.

 

The level of competitiveness and rivalry is probably comparable. Their style imho not so much. VER is more the Senna hothead, at least currently, but I don't see HAM as professor-like as Prost. 



#14 Casey

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 14:51

There are no similarities. Lewis, in his early years in F1 was talked about as the next Senna because of his speed. As the years passed by, he's talked as the next Prost. Meanwhile, after 7 years in F1, Max has learned nothing.

Lewis was also talked about as a menace and a danger to the sport in his early years .



#15 smitten

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 14:53

Lewis was also talked about as a menace and a danger to the sport in his early years .

And yet never had as diabolical a performance as we witnessed from somebody in their 7th F1 season yesterday.



#16 le chat noir

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 14:54

Being a racing driver means you are racing with other people and if you no longer go for a gap that exists you are no longer a racing driver because we are competing.

 

He knew I was right with him. I was not far behind. I was right with him and when I was right behind him he moved to the inside line going towards the first corner, I just chased him and then he opened the gap. And knowing me like he does know, he must realise if there was a gap I was going to try and overtake him.

 

I said to myself: ‘OK, you try to work cleanly and do the job properly and you get ****ed by stupid people. All right, if tomorrow Prost beats me off the line, at the first corner I will go for it, and he better not turn in because he is not going to make it.

 

 

 

Senna may be one of Hamilton's heroes, but he clearly is of the same school as Verstappen.

 

Hamilton, like Prost, has played the percentages. But Verstappen doesn't appear to carry the same emotion as Senna.



#17 AmonGods

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 14:54

Lewis was also talked about as a menace and a danger to the sport in his early years .

 

That's a straight up lie.



#18 Casey

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 14:55

And yet never had as diabolical a performance as we witnessed from somebody in their 7th F1 season yesterday.

Agreed , Senna, Schumacher and probably Piquet would fit that shoe though .



#19 statman

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 14:55

There are no similarities. Lewis, in his early years in F1 was talked about as the next Senna because of his speed. As the years passed by, he's talked as the next Prost. Meanwhile, after 7 years in F1, Max has learned nothing.

 

^^

mods, maybe these sorts of posts should be removed

 

the opening poster clearly states his intention with this topic, yet these sort of posts are only made to derail this topic with nonsense



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#20 hansmann

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:00

I created this thread to contrast the two personalities and put forward the idea that there are potentially a lot of similarities to the early 90's between them both, not to start these nonsensical, tiresome, and childish "his fault, no his fault" back and forths.

 

So you want people to only post positive remarks , ones that meet your approval, yet 'discuss as you wish' ?

Good luck with that ... ;)

 

As for comparisons , I don't see any similarities between the two pairs of drivers , it seems like a forced and stereotypical argument .

Senna/Prost is way overused, I think .



#21 HerbieMcQueen

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:02

So you want people to only post positive remarks , ones that meet your approval, yet 'discuss as you wish' ?

Good luck with that ...  ;)

 

As for comparisons , I don't see any similarities between the two pairs of drivers , it seems like a forced and stereotypical argument .

Senna/Prost is way overused, I think .

 

If "acting like an adult", and "staying on topic" is wanting positive remarks that meet my approval, then yes. Amazingly to my little naive mind, it seems quite difficult for some people.



#22 Zoe

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:03

That's a straight up lie.

 

You might want to check what a certain Niki Lauda once said about HAM (before he poached him to Mercedes, obviously).



#23 statman

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:04

Four-time Formula 1 champion Alain Prost talks about the title fight between Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen and compares it to his battles with Ayrton Senna.
 
Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen are engaged in a fierce title battle that some are comparing to title battles between Alain Prost and Ayrton Senna.
 
In an interview with Channel 4, Prost gave his thoughts on the matter.
 
“We are very lucky to witness this championship this year with two great drivers,” Prost said.
 
“Everyone asks me about Ayrton [Senna] and myself, but if you remember at the time we had five or six years difference. We were talking already about the difference of generations.
 
“Now they have 12, 13 years difference so it’s a big gap, but you almost have a young guy but with already a lot of experience, a lot of speed, and Lewis – we all know what he has done.
 
“In fact, I was thinking that for Lewis, he’s very lucky to have Max at the moment pushing him, because when you have won seven times the championship and more than 100 wins, what do you want to achieve?
 
“So you need to have an extra motivation and what I’ve learned in the past is when you have two like this fighting as hard, you get the best of yourself, the best of your team, so it’s fantastic.
 
“What is true is whoever it will be, Max or Lewis, we will have a fantastic World Champion this year, which is the most important thing.”


#24 Ferrim

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:05

However I actually thought their rivalry is more like what we might have seen between Senna and Schumacher, had Ayrton’s career reached a natural conclusion.


Yeah... yesterday I found myself thinking whether we would have seen this level of **** between those two. The answer is obvious, and it wouldn't have been pretty.

#25 fed up

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:07

Comparing it to Senna Prost is another diversion tactic made to glorify the rivalry in a cheap attempt to ignore Verstappen's racing ethics.

Well said!



#26 statman

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:09

El Pais:
 
"F1 fans had the sensation of traveling three decades back in time, until the end of the eighties, one of the golden ages of the contest, marked by the explosive rivalry between Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost.


#27 cpbell

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:13

I watched both and I would say that Hamilton takes the best of both Senna and Prost qualities.  He is able to switch his toolkit around accordingly that I don't think either of them could do.

 

Verstappen is too early to say but seems more similar to Schumacher rather than those 2 you mentioned.

Yes, agreed.



#28 cpbell

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:15

Its more like the relationship Shumacher and Senna should of had in the mid 90s but couldn't.

Its still odd how Hamilton is now the smooth and calculating one after what was said during his time with Button and Rosberg haha

He matured and improved massively between the 2010/11 period when there was definitely something of Senna's MO in him and the post-2016 era when he's resembled a mix of Senna's one-lap speed and Prost's calculating methods.



#29 mclarensmps

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:18

Verstappen has the potential to be something greater than Senna, but the problem is he's surrounded by a bunch of enablers, and as long as he's influenced by them, he won't reach or surpass the potential. If it was just Horner, it would have been fine, but having the goons Markko and Jos continuously turning him into a victim is not what he needs for his development. 

To take the next step, he needs to ditch those two.

Hamilton did the same thing when he parted ways with his dad as his manager (and his dad wasn't even a negative influence, at least publicly)


Edited by mclarensmps, 06 December 2021 - 15:23.


#30 cpbell

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:19

And yet never had as diabolical a performance as we witnessed from somebody in their 7th F1 season yesterday.

Yes; by 2013, Hamilton was no longer the overly-aggressive driver he had been a few years earlier, though he still had yet to develop the ability to calculate risk vs. reward that he developed in 2015/16.



#31 eibyyz

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:20

 

Four-time Formula 1 champion Alain Prost talks about the title fight between Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen and compares it to his battles with Ayrton Senna.
 
Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen are engaged in a fierce title battle that some are comparing to title battles between Alain Prost and Ayrton Senna.
 
In an interview with Channel 4, Prost gave his thoughts on the matter.
 
“We are very lucky to witness this championship this year with two great drivers,” Prost said.
 
“Everyone asks me about Ayrton [Senna] and myself, but if you remember at the time we had five or six years difference. We were talking already about the difference of generations.
 
“Now they have 12, 13 years difference so it’s a big gap, but you almost have a young guy but with already a lot of experience, a lot of speed, and Lewis – we all know what he has done.
 
“In fact, I was thinking that for Lewis, he’s very lucky to have Max at the moment pushing him, because when you have won seven times the championship and more than 100 wins, what do you want to achieve?
 
“So you need to have an extra motivation and what I’ve learned in the past is when you have two like this fighting as hard, you get the best of yourself, the best of your team, so it’s fantastic.
 
“What is true is whoever it will be, Max or Lewis, we will have a fantastic World Champion this year, which is the most important thing.”

 

 

Spoken like a consultant.



#32 HerbieMcQueen

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:21

This may go down as one of F1's great rivalries, especially if it continues for another two seasons or more at this ferocity. But I don't really see Max as being much like either Senna or Prost. He's got a Mansell-like ability for sheer speed and "never give up" attitude. But it's not mated with an ability to see the bigger picture. That said, he could develop that skill more in the coming years. Lewis has probably peaked, whereas Max has probably not. With Senna and Prost in the period 1988-90, both were at their peaks and either in the same team or both in competitive machinery. 

 

Prost was very political of course, not in the campaigning way that Hamilton is....Prost would work on getting the team to like him and work for him and to get his team-mate to doubt the team's loyalty. Look how well that worked when he was partnered with Mansell, who almost had a persecution complex.

 

What we do have in common with those years, is two generational talents currently in competitive machinery. One the established, accepted "master" and the other the challenger. Prost always had more titles than Senna even if the latter was surely the better driver by the end of Prost's career. Senna was, of course, not above being naughty on the track. So I guess there are some parallels. 

 

I am just enjoying it for what it is. Mostly hard but fair racing. Though I admit, Max pushes that at times.

 

Thanks Abs. Did Senna or Prost go through a clear development as personalities as their careers went on in the same way, for example, Hamilton has since circa 2011-12?



#33 cpbell

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:22

Verstappen has the potential to be something greater than Senna, but the problem is he's surrounded by a bunch of enablers, and as long as he's influenced by them, he won't reach or surpass the potential. If it was just Horner, it would have been fine, but having the goons Markko continuously turning him into a victim is not what he needs for his development. 

To take the next step, he needs to ditch those two.

Hamilton did the same thing when he parted ways with his dad as his manager (and his dad wasn't even a negative influence, at least publicly)

Agreed.  I think Horner and Marko affected Vettel's ability to win a close-fought championship by the time he left Red Bull by making him think he could do no wrong, leading to his implosion in 2018 when he and Ferrari botched a great opportunity.  With maturity, he has reverted to being the likeable, talented driver of 2008-2010 again.



#34 eibyyz

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:23

Did Piquet and Mansell ever wreck or take a wing off the other during their time at Williams?  



#35 cpbell

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:25

This may go down as one of F1's great rivalries, especially if it continues for another two seasons or more at this ferocity. But I don't really see Max as being much like either Senna or Prost. He's got a Mansell-like ability for sheer speed and "never give up" attitude. But it's not mated with an ability to see the bigger picture. That said, he could develop that skill more in the coming years. Lewis has probably peaked, whereas Max has probably not. With Senna and Prost in the period 1988-90, both were at their peaks and either in the same team or both in competitive machinery. 

 

Prost was very political of course, not in the campaigning way that Hamilton is....Prost would work on getting the team to like him and work for him and to get his team-mate to doubt the team's loyalty. Look how well that worked when he was partnered with Mansell, who almost had a persecution complex.

 

What we do have in common with those years, is two generational talents currently in competitive machinery. One the established, accepted "master" and the other the challenger. Prost always had more titles than Senna even if the latter was surely the better driver by the end of Prost's career. Senna was, of course, not above being naughty on the track. So I guess there are some parallels. 

 

I am just enjoying it for what it is. Mostly hard but fair racing. Though I admit, Max pushes that at times.

Great to hear from someone like yourself whose recollection of their McLaren years is better than mine - my passion developed shortly after they became team-mates.



#36 ForzaFormula

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:27

Comparing it to Senna Prost is another diversion tactic made to glorify the rivalry in a cheap attempt to ignore Verstappen's racing ethics.

this



#37 cpbell

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:27

Smoother and more calculating than Max. Less smooth and less calculating that Button for sure. 

 

Prost was more calculating than Senna. Senna was more calculating that Mansell. All were great drivers. We're not dealing in binaries or absolutes. 

Nigel always seemed to live by hs reactions and ability to hold on to a car that was trying to crash.  I can't think of a more spectacular driver in my years of following F1.



#38 cpbell

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:28

Did Piquet and Mansell ever wreck or take a wing off the other during their time at Williams?  

Can't think of any - abdude might recall something I'm unaware of, though.



#39 Zoe

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:34

Nigel always seemed to live by hs reactions and ability to hold on to a car that was trying to crash.  I can't think of a more spectacular driver in my years of following F1.

 

a bit OT, but Alesi in his Tyrrell years and Keke in Detroit (?) was really exciting.



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#40 Casey

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:36

Piquet was notorious for playin mind games with his team mate , he called Mansell an uneducated blockhead and a fast idiot , even insulted Mansell wife and called her ugly .

Piquet even implied that Senna was a homosexual and who can forget the way he overtook Senna and then, while in a sideway drift flipped him the bird .



#41 cpbell

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:43

Piquet was notorious for playin mind games with his team mate , he called Mansell an uneducated blockhead and a fast idiot , even insulted Mansell wife and called her ugly .

Piquet even implied that Senna was a homosexual and who can forget the way he overtook Senna and then, while in a sideway drift flipped him the bird .

Yes, some of his comments were well beyond acceptable even by the standards of the time.



#42 statman

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:43

Speedweek:
 
There are moments that can fundamentally change the relationship between two drivers. A small spark is enough and it pops. And when it pops, it doesn't smoke, it burns brightly. This is a tradition in Formula 1, for example with Nigel Mansell and Nelson Piquet. With Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost. Or with Michael Schumacher and Damon Hill or Jacques Villeneuve.
 
At a certain point in the fight for the title, the mind fails, the egos gain the upper hand, respect goes flute and hatred goes with it. An extremely explosive mixture, which can sharpen the whole key of a title fight from now on.
 
It is therefore clear: the duel between Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton in 2021 also has what it takes to go down in the history of the motorsport premier class. For Gerhard Berger it is the same as before, the duel Ayrton Senna against Alain Prost.


#43 statman

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 15:56

Yes, some of his comments were well beyond acceptable even by the standards of the time.

 

“Another day a journalist asked me, 'being honest, who was the best, you or Senna?'”, “I said : 'I'm still alive'”



#44 cpbell

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 16:02

“Another day a journalist asked me, 'being honest, who was the best, you or Senna?'”, “I said : 'I'm still alive'”

Did he actually say that?! :eek:   Even by his standard, that was harsh.



#45 Collombin

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 16:05

Did he actually say that?! :eek: Even by his standard, that was harsh.


Bill Hicks once said something similar about Lenny Bruce. Ain't karma a bitch.

#46 MrMonaco

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 16:08

Its more like the relationship Shumacher and Senna should of had in the mid 90s but couldn't.

Its still odd how Hamilton is now the smooth and calculating one after what was said during his time with Button and Rosberg haha

Let's not forget his "war" with Massa and I don't mean only 2008 either.

#47 Collombin

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 16:12

Did Piquet and Mansell ever wreck or take a wing off the other during their time at Williams?


Piquet was usually too far behind for that to be an issue (yes I'm kidding, sort of).

The only slighly dubious move I ever remember was Piquet jinking towards Mansell whilst overtaking him at Monza in 1986, but Mansell's instinctive reaction may have made it look far worse than it really was. I don't recall Nigel complaining afterwards.

#48 P123

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 16:25

Senna and Prost was a bit different.  It was personal.  Prost was the target; Senna wanted his crown, and there was all the internal politics to go with that once paired in the same team.  There was a level of respect (unspoken) there in that Senna knew he wanted to prove himself against the best, to show he was the best.  I don't think Max is driven by the same emotion- he'd likely race with the same intensity and tactics regardless of who he was up against.   There isn't the same level of personal animosity between Lewis and Max, even if neither will be sending the other a Christmas card.  Lewis/ Nico is probably closer to Senna/ Prost in terms of off track issues.  Max/ Lewis is more similar to Senna/ Prost in terms of looking at the talent levels.



#49 RekF1

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 16:47

AP didn't have the raw pace of Hamilton, and Senna wasn't anywhere near as dirty as Max. This isn't good racing. It won't be Lewis' biggest or best achievement (IF he wins). It makes the Rosberg/Hamilton dynamics look like some flower power, save the earth, ****.

WWF1.

#50 fed up

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 16:51

I thought it was funny yesterday when Horner said that the first sector was a real driver’s sector, and Max was mighty through there, and the rest of the track was just a power track. The inference being that Max was by far the better driver of the 2. I chuckled to myself, but I guess Christian is directing his trash to his bosses elsewhere.