168 replies to this topic

[JeePee]

I think it is easier to be magnanimous when a driver is confident he has the better package in a race or in some cases a few seasons.

This is true. Having a higher top speed makes it easier also. Look how clean Max raced at Paul Ricard for example. When you're up on speed you don't have to perform these dive bombs to keep ahead before the corner.

[smitten]

^ I am sure if Max had the dominant car we'd know a very different Max/

He wasn't crashing into people when he was way out in front....it's only since he's been really challenged that he's got quite so dirty.

[TheFish]

This is true. Having a higher top speed makes it easier also. Look how clean Max raced at Paul Ricard for example. When you're up on speed you don't have to perform these dive bombs to keep ahead before the corner.

Which other drivers have driven off the circuit to keep drivers behind like Max did twice in Saudi Arabia and once in Brazil? Have we ever seen Alonso do it? Rosberg? Vettel? Button? Webber? I don't even remember Pastor Maldonado doing it.

 

Alonso hasn't had the quickest car in a very long time and I don't think he's ever done it.

[Dhillon]

He wasn't crashing into people when he was way out in front....it's only since he's been really challenged that he's got quite so dirty.

 

Extactly, Lewis and Massa were crashing every other race in one season I remember. Now that he is mostly in front he is known as Saint Lewis 

[smitten]

Which other drivers have driven off the circuit to keep drivers behind like Max did twice in Saudi Arabia and once in Brazil? Have we ever seen Alonso do it? Rosberg? Vettel? Button? Webber? I don't even remember Pastor Maldonado doing it.

 

Alonso hasn't had the quickest car in a very long time and I don't think he's ever done it.

We have a perception sometimes, I think, that the previous generation of drivers played to a higher standard than the young guns.  I'm not sure that's totally true; I certainly wouldn't  (yet?) have Norris, Leclerc, Russell, Albon, Schumacher Jnr in a category of dirty drivers.  But I suppose in reality there have always been dirty drivers - they just don't tend to last that long unless they are also very quick like Schumacher Snr and Verstappen Jnr.

[smitten]

Extactly, Lewis and Massa were crashing every other race in one season I remember. Now that he is mostly in front he is known as Saint Lewis 

We had that in another thread - I think they Massa/Hamilton DNFs were fairly low, but they certainly had some wheel rubbing.

[JeePee]

Which other drivers have driven off the circuit to keep drivers behind like Max did twice in Saudi Arabia and once in Brazil? Have we ever seen Alonso do it? Rosberg? Vettel? Button? Webber? I don't even remember Pastor Maldonado doing it.

 

Alonso hasn't had the quickest car in a very long time and I don't think he's ever done it.

Is driving off the circuit in tarmac plastered tracks the worst thing you can do? Because I've seen all drivers doing some shady stuff when the pressure was high, yes.

 

Luckily btw. The sport needs drama.

[TheFish]

Is driving off the circuit in tarmac plastered tracks the worst thing you can do? Because I've seen all drivers doing some shady stuff when the pressure was high, yes.

 

Luckily btw. The sport needs drama.

Intentionally driving off the circuit is pretty low imo. It's a step above brake testing for sure though.

 

It's why Verstappen is being compared with Schumacher, and not in a good way. It's also why that comparison was never there with Vettel, Alonso or Hamilton.

[w00dy]

This is true. Having a higher top speed makes it easier also. Look how clean Max raced at Paul Ricard for example. When you're up on speed you don't have to perform these dive bombs to keep ahead before the corner.

Compare that with Silverstone. Lewis was very down in the points, unsure about the fresh update, he went for the incident.

Lewis definitely has more experience, but for a 24 year old, Max holds up really well. Lewis at 24 had lie-gate…

[as65p]

There are no significant parallels other than the drama in general. Neither of the four drivers in question has much in common with the other three IMO.

 

I mean, obviously that's how our minds work, comparing current events with what we know from the past so our brain can categorize, but often enough it just doesn't fit, regardless how we try to squeeze it.

[jstrains]

I think Max  was trying to take Lewis out several times in Brazil and Saudi Arabia but Lewis somehow managed to survive it every time... (would he do it if Silverstone crash did not happen? only Max knows). I think if we come to a point in Abu Dhabi where Lewis will be going to overtake Max for the lead and WDC, he will take him out. If he loses it on the track or maybe with the FIA, he will not care...

Edited by jstrains, 08 December 2021 - 09:50.

[Requiem84]

I think Max  was trying to take Lewis out several times in Brazil and Saudi Arabia but Lewis somehow managed to survive it every time... (would he do it if Silverstone crash did not happen? only Max knows). I think if we come to a point in Abu Dhabi where Lewis will be going to overtake Max for the lead and WDC, he will take him out. If he loses it on the track or maybe with the FIA, he will not care...

 

The main problem with these comments is that they don't seem to understand that Max had a many many clear opportunities to actually take out Hamilton if he'd wanted to. 

 

Max has never ever tried to take out Hamilton in the way that Schumacher steered into opponents. What Max on the other hand has actually done is going for some racing moves which were not on and which required the other driver to make a choice: crash or move out of the way. That is a fundamental difference between a Jerez 1997 situation and what Max has done in Jeddah. 

 

It's fine to argue that what Max is doing is also very poor, going for a move which is not on and then letting your opponent decide whether to crash or not. But on the scale of 'dirtiness' it's definitely below purposely trying to collide with your opponent. 

 

And the main issue with us fans on discussions like this is that it sometimes is hard to see the nuance between things and the conversation only goes in hyperboles. 

[thiscocks]

The Red Bull was favored 25 times in 100 races? Get outta here. As to why Ricciardo has more pole positions, I remember Max binning it in Monaco a couple of times where Dan made pole and the other was Mexico where he complained of throttle pickup issues. It is a valid criticism but I put it down to the sample set of possible pole positions being very small. By the way, I am fairly sure Max has 0 poles with Daniel as his teammate.

 

The measure of outright speed, if at all, should be qualifying against teammates, not specifically pole positions. In this regard, Verstappen acquitted himself fairly well against Ricciardo over the last 2 years as teammates. Pole position or not is largely a function of how competitive your car is with regards to your opponents, and has nothing to do with a driver's speed.

Eermm, ok.

[absinthedude]

Re Brazil. I do not think Max was trying to take Lewis out. I suspect there were moments where Max put Lewis under pressure in the hope that he'd make a mistake. But I don't feel there's anything there which shows Max was trying to take him out. He could have, if he really wanted to. 

[jstrains]

Do you think? So ok not Brazil, but the "brake test" was clearly to do so...

Edited by jstrains, 08 December 2021 - 11:46.

[Dimocash]

Do you think? So ok not Brazil, but the "brake test" was clearly to do so...

No way, he just wanted Lewis to pass him so he could pass Lewis with drs.

But as Lewis slowed down, Max even slowed more.

[jstrains]

A very good insight into Prost and Senna relationship. Unfortunately we will never hear Ayrton's opinion on this topic. Max reminds me a bit of Ayrton in his behaviour. Worth to listen (maybe if you have nothing to do before the race)

 

Edited by jstrains, 11 December 2021 - 20:52.

[baddog]

No way, he just wanted Lewis to pass him so he could pass Lewis with drs.

But as Lewis slowed down, Max even slowed more.

 

Yeah it was inept and bad but to even claim it was intended to cause a crash is just silly hyperbole.

[Laptom]

Which other drivers have driven off the circuit to keep drivers behind like Max did twice in Saudi Arabia and once in Brazil? Have we ever seen Alonso do it? Rosberg? Vettel? Button? Webber? I don't even remember Pastor Maldonado doing it.

Alonso hasn't had the quickest car in a very long time and I don't think he's ever done it.

I do remember Hamilton doing it on Rosberg, Vettel on Hamilton, Prost on Senna, Senna on Prost, Hunt on Lauda. Do you need more?