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Penalty Loop/Long Lap


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#1 CrushedDreams

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 22:25

Until yesterday I would have disagreed with the need for a "penalty loop"/long lap penalty like in MotoGP, but think that it would be a great idea at tracks it is possible.*

 

It would avoid drivers trying to navigate when and how to give places back, it would also avoid tacking time onto a result (unless it was a penalty in the closing laps). It would be great to aim for about a 5 second time loss, but that too may be difficult at some venues, the stewards could even ask a driver to serve more than one when needed.

 

*It has been mentioned before


Edited by CrushedDreams, 06 December 2021 - 22:26.


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#2 pdac

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 22:56

Just tell them to give the place back properly or be black-flagged. That's all that is needed.



#3 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 22:59

What does properly mean? Where do you draw the line? Can't overtake on the same straight? (spa 2008), following straight? 2 straights? one lap?

what if the new driver in front slows down too so that his team mate can have a go?



#4 ANF

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 23:21

ADAC GT Masters have introduced an interesting alternative to MotoGP's long lap penalty: right after the exit from the hairpin at Hockenheim, on the right-hand side of the track – well off the racing line – there was a painted "penalty box" which penalised drivers had to drive through while staying on the pit lane speed limiter.

Hopefully, the FIA will consider placing a penalty box at a safe location on every circuit and let it replace the 5-second time penalty so that penalties can be served on the track, as soon as possible. (Perhaps an F1 car would lose 5 seconds in a box where a slower F3 car would only lose 3.5 seconds, but I could live with that.)

penaltybox.jpg



#5 ClubmanGT

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Posted 06 December 2021 - 23:26

It would avoid drivers trying to navigate when and how to give places back,

 

Giving places back is meant to avoid a penalty in the first place though, so I'm not sure how you do that without ending up with a defacto penalty. Otherwise you end up incentivising people to really make their corner cutting count provided they don't have a pitstop in which they could lose track position. 

 

And none of it matters if race control can't sort their comms out. Supercars does this really well. 



#6 William Hunt

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 01:03

This 'giving the place back' issue is only a problem when a driver is thinking about not giving it back in an honest way (like taking the place back with DRS the next straight). So to solve this issue just forbid to take the place back on the next straight or next couple of corners. Or just black flag Max because he's the one who's doing it and it's cheating.



#7 ClubmanGT

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 01:05

This 'giving the place back' issue is only a problem when a driver is thinking about not giving it back in an honest way (like taking the place back with DRS the next straight). So to solve this issue just forbid to take the place back on the next straight or next couple of corners. Or just black flag Max because he's the one who's doing it and it's cheating.

 

If it's cynical then the stewards can just ping someone though? This is the bit I don't get about Lewis playing DRS games - it was never going to wash if Max did what he was trying to do. 



#8 CrushedDreams

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 01:10

This 'giving the place back' issue is only a problem when a driver is thinking about not giving it back in an honest way (like taking the place back with DRS the next straight). So to solve this issue just forbid to take the place back on the next straight or next couple of corners. Or just black flag Max because he's the one who's doing it and it's cheating.


It is for more than just the ‘give back,’ it can replace the 5 second penalty too, which is becoming pretty common.

#9 CrushedDreams

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 01:15

I like the pit limiter idea, or just dictate another limited speed for the particular event’s ‘loop,’ that speed would equate to approx. 5 seconds to serve/traverse.

Edited by CrushedDreams, 07 December 2021 - 01:15.


#10 CrushedDreams

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 01:20

This 'giving the place back' issue is only a problem when a driver is thinking about not giving it back in an honest way (like taking the place back with DRS the next straight). So to solve this issue just forbid to take the place back on the next straight or next couple of corners. Or just black flag Max because he's the one who's doing it and it's cheating.


Also, trying to be constructive here, but other drivers have strategically ‘given’ places back too.

#11 teejay

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 01:27

Heck no. 

 

If the best drivers in the world can't be trusted to cede position cleanly, we've got massive issues. 



#12 SB

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 01:29

 

ADAC GT Masters have introduced an interesting alternative to MotoGP's long lap penalty: right after the exit from the hairpin at Hockenheim, on the right-hand side of the track – well off the racing line – there was a painted "penalty box" which penalised drivers had to drive through while staying on the pit lane speed limiter.

Hopefully, the FIA will consider placing a penalty box at a safe location on every circuit and let it replace the 5-second time penalty so that penalties can be served on the track, as soon as possible. (Perhaps an F1 car would lose 5 seconds in a box where a slower F3 car would only lose 3.5 seconds, but I could live with that.)

penaltybox.jpg

 

 

Like the "attack mode zone" idea in Formula E ? Sound workable to me   ;)



#13 ClubmanGT

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 02:17

I like the pit limiter idea, or just dictate another limited speed for the particular event’s ‘loop,’ that speed would equate to approx. 5 seconds to serve/traverse.

 

This doesn't work though - it just means if I do end up ahead of someone because I went off track, I just have to do it so blatantly that I'm 5 seconds ahead when I get to that bit of the track. 

 

The whole point of swapping places back is to avoid a penalty; it's quite conceivable someone could go from being 1 second behind to 1 second ahead - your system would drop them even further back than they were before. Is this meant to be the penalty or is it instead of a penalty?



#14 Darth Sidious

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 04:03

Easy solution is to not allow them to overtake for one full lap, or until the start/finish line once they have yielded the position.



#15 CrushedDreams

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 04:21

Easy solution is to not allow them to overtake for one full lap, or until the start/finish line once they have yielded the position.


Would there be a minimum lap time for that lap? Or could the ‘new’ car in front back the following driver up?

There are many Machiavellian opportunities without some ‘extra’ structure.

On the flip side, let’s at a driver is ordered to give up the spot, but the following driver slows and doesn’t take it for awhile? Maybe that following driver wants the someone else behind to catch-up to them?

#16 CrushedDreams

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 04:25

This doesn't work though - it just means if I do end up ahead of someone because I went off track, I just have to do it so blatantly that I'm 5 seconds ahead when I get to that bit of the track.

The whole point of swapping places back is to avoid a penalty; it's quite conceivable someone could go from being 1 second behind to 1 second ahead - your system would drop them even further back than they were before. Is this meant to be the penalty or is it instead of a penalty?


That is a good point. Maybe the penalty loop only gives-up a little (like an ordered position swap) if taken at race pace, and then taken with the suggested ‘speed’ limiter to make it take approx 5 seconds if it is to serve a given penalty?

#17 Singularity

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 04:55

Until yesterday I would have disagreed with the need for a "penalty loop"/long lap penalty like in MotoGP, but think that it would be a great idea at tracks it is possible.*

 

It would avoid drivers trying to navigate when and how to give places back, it would also avoid tacking time onto a result (unless it was a penalty in the closing laps). It would be great to aim for about a 5 second time loss, but that too may be difficult at some venues, the stewards could even ask a driver to serve more than one when needed.

 

*It has been mentioned before

 

I am very much in favor of this. Make it a poll :)

The speed limiter thing is a cheapo and gimmicky thing that would just lead to more controversies and 5/10 second penalties are very unsatisfying - track position is much better than track position + x.



#18 jpm2019

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 06:27

Well they kinda have this already at some circuits where you have to follow a route to rejoin the track. Monza? Sochi? Mexico maybe?

#19 PayasYouRace

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 07:45

Like I’ve already said. We already have one of those. It’s called the pit lane. Give the driver a drive-through penalty.

 

I think that it should be a more serious penalty for cutting corners. Too many drivers do it and then relay on being able to make up for the 5 seconds. Give a drive-through, unless the driver comes to a complete stop when leaving the track, which I think is sufficient to show that you’ve not gained any advantage by leaving the track.



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#20 Broekschaap

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 08:06

I bet you somebody is going to take such a long lap Zarco style. I would prefer it if the stewards can order somenone to give the place back as part of there penalty toolbox.

 

edit: oh well really need to learn how to make a youtube link


Edited by Broekschaap, 07 December 2021 - 08:06.


#21 PlatenGlass

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 08:36

I think 5-second penalties are terrible as drivers' position on track isn't where they are in the race so a long lap where drivers go straight back to where they are in the race would be a good idea.

#22 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 08:57

Tracks should be changed to deter this (see the track limits thread). 
 

Really sick of all this off-track shenanigans.



#23 SophieB

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 08:59

If it's cynical then the stewards can just ping someone though? This is the bit I don't get about Lewis playing DRS games - it was never going to wash if Max did what he was trying to do. 

I don’t think anyone else shares your confidence about what the stewards would ‘just ping’ in any circumstance, no matter how apparently clear cut.

 

e. Well,I don’t think many would. There’s always someone who will go ‘I would’



#24 PlatenGlass

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 08:59

Tracks should be changed to deter this (see the track limits thread).

Really sick of all this off-track shenanigans.

Yes, but not all 5-second penalties are for cutting corners. We need to do away with time penalties that just get added onto your race time.

#25 smitten

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 09:05

I don't like F1's inability to give appropriate punishments.  More other sports don't have the same hesitancy to punish behaviours which are contrary to the rules of the game.  Here, we don't seem to like to punish the superstars (although the also-rans do seem to get a harder time of it)

 

I do, however, understand that they are worried about the show.  I wonder if we get 3 or 4 teams equallish at the front in 2022 then we may move away from the cult of personality and revert to punitive punishments again; I for one would welcome it.

 

Edit: meant to say that penalty loops etc are "show punishments" and I'm not really a fan of them.


Edited by smitten, 07 December 2021 - 09:06.


#26 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 09:11

Yes, but not all 5-second penalties are for cutting corners. We need to do away with time penalties that just get added onto your race time.

Then give them a drive-through.

 

I know we have people saying it’s too harsh a punishment, but there’s a novel idea that drivers should learn...stick to the track, don’t take the mick, and you’ll avoid a penalty.

 

Drivers would soon stop taking all of these liberties if they knew it would ruin their race.



#27 ANF

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 10:51

This 'giving the place back' issue is only a problem when a driver is thinking about not giving it back in an honest way (like taking the place back with DRS the next straight). So to solve this issue just forbid to take the place back on the next straight or next couple of corners. Or just black flag Max because he's the one who's doing it and it's cheating.

But it also becomes a problem when driver A should give the place back to driver B, and driver B has already been passed by drivers C, D and E. Time penalties are usually handed out in such situations. With a penalty box, the penalty could be served on the track and there could then be a proper race to the chequered flag for real track positions.



#28 ANF

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 10:52

Then give them a drive-through.
 
I know we have people saying it’s too harsh a punishment, but there’s a novel idea that drivers should learn...stick to the track, don’t take the mick, and you’ll avoid a penalty.
 
Drivers would soon stop taking all of these liberties if they knew it would ruin their race.

That's a good point.

#29 PayasYouRace

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 11:07

But it also becomes a problem when driver A should give the place back to driver B, and driver B has already been passed by drivers C, D and E. Time penalties are usually handed out in such situations. With a penalty box, the penalty could be served on the track and there could then be a proper race to the chequered flag for real track positions.


There already is a penalty box. It’s the pit box.

I think using drive throughs and stop and goes would be much more effective as they actually provide an effective deterrent against gaining advantage by leaving the track.

Don’t want a penalty? Come to a complete stop if you leave the track.

#30 cpbell

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 11:11

Yes, I think the drive-through is the best solution.



#31 BRG

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 11:16

PAYR and IrvTheSwerve have got it right.  Drive-through.  A proper penalty, no questions about how it is to be done, a major time loss, no need for any circuit changes.  And it would be a massive deterrent to all this cheating.  What's  not to like? 



#32 ANF

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 12:56

There already is a penalty box. It’s the pit box.

I think using drive throughs and stop and goes would be much more effective as they actually provide an effective deterrent against gaining advantage by leaving the track.

Don’t want a penalty? Come to a complete stop if you leave the track.

That might work for track limit violations, but what about other offences? I think 5/10-second time penalties often are harsh enough penalties for drivers who have caused a collision or forced a driver off the track. And sometimes they are harsh enough for very slight speeding in the pit lane/behind the (V)SC, or even for an unsafe relase that wasn't too unsafe. A drive-through penalty will cost a driver 15–20 seconds. That's a lot, especially in a series with 25-minute races. Not only would some drivers' race be ruined because of a minor offence, but I'm afraid some offences would go unpenalised because the stewards may think a drive-through is too harsh a penalty.



#33 OneAndOnly

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 13:15

That might work for track limit violations, but what about other offences? ​I think 5/10-second time penalties often are harsh enough penalties for drivers who have caused a collision or forced a driver off the track. And sometimes they are harsh enough for very slight speeding in the pit lane/behind the (V)SC, or even for an unsafe relase that wasn't too unsafe. A drive-through penalty will cost a driver 15–20 seconds. That's a lot, especially in a series with 25-minute races. Not only would some drivers' race be ruined because of a minor offence, but I'm afraid some offences would go unpenalised because the stewards may think a drive-through is too harsh a penalty.

I wouldn't agree with bolded part, because track position matters. There are situations where driver behind is faster, but not fast enough to overtake. So basically you cut corner or force driver off the track to overtake when couldn't overtake cleanly on track and get 10 seconds penalty which won't matter in the end, because you'll build 10+ seconds advantage to negate the penalty. I can imagine DC would use it in Monaco in 2001. when Bernoldi held him for 30 laps despite DC being much faster. Not sure what the right solution is, but as we witnessed in Jeddah current one is bad.



#34 Clatter

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 13:23

Until yesterday I would have disagreed with the need for a "penalty loop"/long lap penalty like in MotoGP, but think that it would be a great idea at tracks it is possible.*

 

It would avoid drivers trying to navigate when and how to give places back, it would also avoid tacking time onto a result (unless it was a penalty in the closing laps). It would be great to aim for about a 5 second time loss, but that too may be difficult at some venues, the stewards could even ask a driver to serve more than one when needed.

 

*It has been mentioned before

 


Don't need to build anything, just give a drive thru penalty. The 5 and 10 second penalties are too lenient for most infractions they are used for anyway. Penalties are not just to punish, but should be harsh enough to be a deterrent.

#35 MKSixer

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 13:36

I think we have this figured out.  The 5 and 10 second penalties are too lenient.  At most tracks a drive through will be 20 seconds.  Add a 5 second stop/go or 10 second stop/go will provide a proper deterrent.  

 

And the predicted outcome from Brazil reared its ugly head on Sunday with verification here:  https://www.autospor...brazil/6858250/

 

Because he wasn't penalized in BRA, Max thought it was fine to run HAM off the track again in SA.  If this doesn't tell the entire story of proper application of penalties and their effect on driver decisions, nothing else will.  

 

Stop enabling this behavior, FIA and Masi.  I think true racing fans are sick of it.  Absolutely sick and tired of it all.  I want to watch hard, clean racing.  Not the BS we've been seeing.



#36 PlatenGlass

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 13:42

There already is a penalty box. It’s the pit box.

I think using drive throughs and stop and goes would be much more effective as they actually provide an effective deterrent against gaining advantage by leaving the track.

Don’t want a penalty? Come to a complete stop if you leave the track.

I don't think it's safe to encourage drivers to come to a complete stop. While you do that, another driver comes screaming into the run-off after some sort of failure. Stopping would also presumably mean yellow flags. So there would be knock-on effects.

#37 Oakstreet

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 13:50

I think PayasYouRace means the old-style stop&go penalty in the pitlane. 

 

I agree though. Would make it very easy & no discussion at all. Ouside the white lines --> drive through pitlane. But then we'll go back to the discussions in the late 90's why 10sec stop&go was not enough..



#38 smitten

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 14:04

Are there any statistic already compiled on how many penalties there are on average per race by season?  My sense is that we get a lot more, but smaller, penalties these days but in the past (excluding the whole 200 place grid drop for engine change nonsense) we let more go and penalised heavier when we needed to.  But I don't know if that is rose-tinted glasses.


Edited by smitten, 07 December 2021 - 14:04.


#39 CrushedDreams

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 14:24

Tracks should be changed to deter this (see the track limits thread).

Really sick of all this off-track shenanigans.


Yes. I agree, and ultimately this would be the best solution to ‘police’ the racing, but it isn’t going to happen.

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#40 cbo

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 14:28

What does properly mean? Where do you draw the line? Can't overtake on the same straight? (spa 2008), following straight? 2 straights? one lap?
what if the new driver in front slows down too so that his team mate can have a go?


Giving a place back should be something a driver or his team could decide to do on their own accord to avoid a penalty.

If they decide not to, then they risk a penalty - and drive though sounds good.

#41 pRy

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 14:32

The FIA just need to tell the drivers to be mature about it or start to be given drive through penalties. 



#42 CrushedDreams

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 14:45

It has been awhile, but don’t forget drive throughs were fraught with politics, and many times they were seen as harsh for the offense. When it was effectively the only option, they put a lot of Strain on the stewarding.

I think they have their place, and should be used more often, but I also think there should be a ‘lesser’ option.

Edited by CrushedDreams, 07 December 2021 - 15:13.


#43 Clatter

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 14:55

I think PayasYouRace means the old-style stop&go penalty in the pitlane.

I agree though. Would make it very easy & no discussion at all. Ouside the white lines --> drive through pitlane. But then we'll go back to the discussions in the late 90's why 10sec stop&go was not enough..

I don't remember anyone saying it wasn't enough, although many said it was too much. A stop go could be as short as 5 seconds or as long as they wanted, depending on the infraction. They will lose a lot having to go through the pitlane at a reduced speed.

#44 TheFish

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 14:59

Imagine giving Norris a drive through for what happened in Austria...



#45 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 15:01

I think we have this figured out.  The 5 and 10 second penalties are too lenient.  At most tracks a drive through will be 20 seconds.  Add a 5 second stop/go or 10 second stop/go will provide a proper deterrent.  

 

And the predicted outcome from Brazil reared its ugly head on Sunday with verification here:  https://www.autospor...brazil/6858250/

 

Because he wasn't penalized in BRA, Max thought it was fine to run HAM off the track again in SA.  If this doesn't tell the entire story of proper application of penalties and their effect on driver decisions, nothing else will.  

 

Stop enabling this behavior, FIA and Masi.  I think true racing fans are sick of it.  Absolutely sick and tired of it all.  I want to watch hard, clean racing.  Not the BS we've been seeing.

You're assuming that FIA, Masi or Liberty care about racing fans.  They only care about eyeballs.  And more drama at the race means they can present more drama on the Real Housewives of Formula 1 (sorry, I mean Drive to Survive), which they hope will continue to bring more eyeballs to F1 than the sport could do on its own.  And there are way more people that watch Reality TV than F1... 



#46 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 15:05

It has been awhile, but don’t forget drive throughs we’re fraught with politics, and many times they were seen as harsh for the offense. When it was effectively the only option, they put a lot of Strain on the stewarding.

I think they have their place, and should be used more often, but I also think there should be a ‘lesser’ option.

They should be harsh for the offense.  The purpose of a penalty isn't to restore balance, it is to discourage behavior.  It is a penalty.  Resetting things to as they were before is no penalty at all.  That is why when you get stopped for speeding, the cop doesn't just say, "well, we'll just have you sit here for another 30 seconds so that you don't get to your destination any earlier than if you didn't speed."  



#47 PayasYouRace

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 15:06

I don't think it's safe to encourage drivers to come to a complete stop. While you do that, another driver comes screaming into the run-off after some sort of failure. Stopping would also presumably mean yellow flags. So there would be knock-on effects.


So basically just the same as if it was grass or gravel. You go off, you cause a yellow flag. Fine. We should be encouraging drivers to stop if they leave the track. I’m happy for that to only apply to tarmac runoff. But it will stop the drivers from abusing it.

#48 Oakstreet

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 15:10

I don't remember anyone saying it wasn't enough, although many said it was too much. A stop go could be as short as 5 seconds or as long as they wanted, depending on the infraction. They will lose a lot having to go through the pitlane at a reduced speed.

 

Thats what I meant, poor word choice. Meant to say "were not enough options" but 'too much'' was way easier ;)



#49 PayasYouRace

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 15:13

I think PayasYouRace means the old-style stop&go penalty in the pitlane.

I agree though. Would make it very easy & no discussion at all. Ouside the white lines --> drive through pitlane. But then we'll go back to the discussions in the late 90's why 10sec stop&go was not enough..


What I mean is, if you go off track and don’t come to a complete stop, you get a penalty. Drive through the pits would be the lowest.

The reason I say if you don’t come to a complete stop is to stop penalties being given for genuine spins and other issues which might cause you to leave the track. It also means it provides a well understood means of not getting an advantage.

For example: You outbrake yourself going into turn 1. If you accelerate through the runoff, and don’t stop, you’ve gained an illegal advantage and must serve a drive through. However, if you come to a complete stop, you may proceed with no further action from the stewards.

#50 BRG

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Posted 07 December 2021 - 15:19

For those saying a drive-through is too harsh, it is what you get routinely for being a few centimetres out of place on the grid, or for anticipating the lights by a fraction of a second, both very minor offences in terms of the benefit gained by the culprit. 

 

Yet passing someone off the track, or going off the track to defend your place only gets a 5 secs penalty (sometimes) yet is an offence with far more potential benefit to the culprit.