87 replies to this topic

[CrushedDreams]

What I mean is, if you go off track and don’t come to a complete stop, you get a penalty. Drive through the pits would be the lowest.
The reason I say if you don’t come to a complete stop is to stop penalties being given for genuine spins and other issues which might cause you to leave the track. It also means it provides a well understood means of not getting an advantage.
For example: You outbrake yourself going into turn 1. If you accelerate through the runoff, and don’t stop, you’ve gained an illegal advantage and must serve a drive through. However, if you come to a complete stop, you may proceed with no further action from the stewards.

I like it, but I think it has too many safety problems (coming to a sudden stop in certain areas).

How about a long lap, like MotoGP?

Or a ‘short’ lap slow zone (kinda like a drive through) as shown earlier here? That would also address the track/venue problem. Every track has an ‘inside’ area for a slow zone.

Edited by CrushedDreams, 07 December 2021 - 15:27.

[PayasYouRace]

I like it, but I think it has too many safety problems (coming to a sudden stop in certain areas).

How about a long lap, like MotoGP?

Or a ‘short’ lap slow zone (kinda like a drive through) as shown earlier here? That would also address the track/venue problem. Every track has an ‘inside’ area for a slow zone.

The long lap is the drive through penalty.

I don’t see why coming to a stop in a runoff area is particularly dangerous.

Edit. Adding zones to do the job that the pit lane with the speed limit is ultimately just an extra, unnecessary expense for the circuits, and it’s not possible to implement them all all tracks. Case in point, there’s nowhere to do that at Monaco, where cutting the chicane is very common.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Put it this way, if Max was told that if he uses his antics to defend this weekend he will be given a drive through/stop-go instantly, putting him 30+ secs behind Hamilton, I'm pretty sure he'd think twice about it.

 

The FIA/Masi pussy-foot around these drivers and teams far too much though, so it won't happen.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Edit. Adding zones to do the job that the pit lane with the speed limit is ultimately just an extra, unnecessary expense for the circuits, and it’s not possible to implement them all all tracks. Case in point, there’s nowhere to do that at Monaco, where cutting the chicane is very common.

 

How about a penalty boat on the outside of Rascasse? 

[MKSixer]

You're assuming that FIA, Masi or Liberty care about racing fans.  They only care about eyeballs.  And more drama at the race means they can present more drama on the Real Housewives of Formula 1 (sorry, I mean Drive to Survive), which they hope will continue to bring more eyeballs to F1 than the sport could do on its own.  And there are way more people that watch Reality TV than F1... 

I agree with you on part of this.  

 

I think the real drama would be several stop-and-go penalties of top runners for track-limit violations which would mix up the field and bring in new front winners.  A 30 second total penalty late in the race resulting in a non-points finish would mix things up and ensure compliance of the rules!

[CrushedDreams]

I think some are not letting go of the emotion of the moment. I do like the idea of stopping off track, but there are issues with that, that can’t be ignored.

Frankly, a drive through ruins the race weekend for whoever gets it (I have experienced all three types,* drive through, stop-and-go and stop-and-hold).

*I only deserved to get one race ruined, but the steward/director only had one option to give (one drive through given was a total mistake, given to wrong number).

We can nitpick things like, it may not work at a certain track… that is fixable, and every track’s pit lane delta is different too. Anyway, there is a reason why the drive trough is used less. I agree with it.

As mentioned earlier, drive through or nothing puts huge pressure on the stewards, and afterwards everyone will be bickering about the drive through(s). Dreadful.

To add even more! If everyone got drive throughs for everything, the racing would suffer greatly.

Note: A 5 or 10 second penalty is pretty big. These guys measure their race efficiency down to the second(s) (total race time). Many times it is the difference between a world champion and a mid field performer.

Edited by CrushedDreams, 07 December 2021 - 16:51.

[PayasYouRace]

That’s why I’m only suggesting a drive through (or harsher if necessary) if you leave the track and fail to stop, which is something that should ruin your race, because the racing should take place on the track, not outside it.

The 5 and 10 second penalties are evidently not enough, because drivers are able to negate them fairly easily. We see it all the time.

[Timorous]

If it's cynical then the stewards can just ping someone though? This is the bit I don't get about Lewis playing DRS games - it was never going to wash if Max did what he was trying to do.

That is putting faith on the stewards to make the right call.

A penalty loop or other go slow zone that costs around 5s that can be served in the race easily is the ideal solution IMO as it stops any shenanigans.

[PlatenGlass]

The long lap is the drive through penalty.

I don’t see why coming to a stop in a runoff area is particularly dangerous.

Edit. Adding zones to do the job that the pit lane with the speed limit is ultimately just an extra, unnecessary expense for the circuits, and it’s not possible to implement them all all tracks. Case in point, there’s nowhere to do that at Monaco, where cutting the chicane is very common.

A lot of the time a driver will cut a small bit off a chicane. By the time it's happened, they're back on the track. They can't really stop then.

[Juan Kerr]

Just tell them to give the place back properly or be black-flagged. That's all that is needed.

Since when has giving a place back required any brakes on a main straight? It is simply a lift and move to one side, job done. Max is almost obsessed with cheating.

[PayasYouRace]

A lot of the time a driver will cut a small bit off a chicane. By the time it's happened, they're back on the track. They can't really stop then.

They can stop off line. Probably shouldn’t be cutting chicanes.

[Anderis]

Frankly, a drive through ruins the race weekend for whoever gets it

Not necessarily. We've had drivers winning races with DT in the past, like Webber Nurbirgring 2009.

 

Hamilton or Verstappen would easily finish most races of this season on the podium even with a DT and even for upper midfield there's still a chance for points with DT.

 

It's a good penalty. Unlike 5 seconds penalty, it's a proper deterrent, because it makes your race harder and you have to serve it within 3 laps, so there's no "I'll overtake him outside the track and then gain 5 seconds in 20 laps so I can finish ahead". It also makes things clear that your final result is where you've actually finished. But it's not so harsh that it automatically prevents you from scoring a good result, while harsh enough to be a proper deterrent.

 

Edited by Anderis, 07 December 2021 - 17:18.

[chrcol]

What does properly mean? Where do you draw the line? Can't overtake on the same straight? (spa 2008), following straight? 2 straights? one lap?

what if the new driver in front slows down too so that his team mate can have a go?

 

Well the rule was done with assumptions drivers are sporting.

 

If rampant abuse started I would quickly expect we just go straight to penalties with "no" chances to give the position back.

 

I dont see anything unusual in the previous race, just a bunch of issues that compounded together, the first one been Masi not telling Merc before Red bull so they couldnt prepare for the swap, second was Max having a brain fart moment with the brake check.  Then afterwards we had multiple laps where Max didnt give another chance, until the moment he then decided to re-overtake right away, and the penalty was issued seconds after that.

 

Lewis could have overtaken Max on the first slowdown, but given how dangerous max has been in wheel to wheel driving, I can understand the hesitancy, also bear in mind the track had lots of VSC's, a SC and multiple red flags, Lewis might have been thinking has there been an accident somewhere.  We will never know what went on in Lewis head, but I do think there was proper reasons for him to wait before overtaking.  We "do" know he wasnt told about the position swap.

 

So my opinion is I wouldnt be surprised if position swap back's been offered by race director cease to be a thing, it will be up to teams to voluntarily do it to avoid any potential penalties.

[Bleu]

I think it could be introduced as an option to 5- and 10-second penalties. And the penalties should be done instantly and not wait. 

 

Using Silverstone as an example. Hamilton penalty was announced on lap 5. So this was the latest standing: 

 

 

Don't stick on lap times. It was the first lap of the restart, and thanks to offset Silverstone start/finish straight has, includes a stoppage on the grid for almost all drivers. 

 

Let's assume 5-second penalty would be replaced by going through slower zone once, 10-second penalty by doing it twice. Ten seconds added to Hamilton's time at this point would drop him between Latifi and Mazepin. OK, if we assume penalty must be served within similar timeframe as drive through or 10-second stop/go, he may get a lap or two at full speed on the front, I would then assume Hamilton would be between Tsunoda and Schumacher when the penalty is served.

[Frank Tuesday]

I think some are not letting go of the emotion of the moment. I do like the idea of stopping off track, but there are issues with that, that can’t be ignored.

Frankly, a drive through ruins the race weekend for whoever gets it (I have experienced all three types,* drive through, stop-and-go and stop-and-hold).

*I only deserved to get one race ruined, but the steward/director only had one option to give (one drive through given was a total mistake, given to wrong number).

We can nitpick things like, it may not work at a certain track… that is fixable, and every track’s pit lane delta is different too. Anyway, there is a reason why the drive trough is used less. I agree with it.

As mentioned earlier, drive through or nothing puts huge pressure on the stewards, and afterwards everyone will be bickering about the drive through(s). Dreadful.

To add even more! If everyone got drive throughs for everything, the racing would suffer greatly.

Note: A 5 or 10 second penalty is pretty big. These guys measure their race efficiency down to the second(s) (total race time). Many times it is the difference between a world champion and a mid field performer.

But 5 seconds added at the end is very different than 5 seconds taken in the middle of the race. The latter has the benefit of better track position.

[ClubmanGT]

That is putting faith on the stewards to make the right call.

A penalty loop or other go slow zone that costs around 5s that can be served in the race easily is the ideal solution IMO as it stops any shenanigans.

 

Yes, but the redress was where the problem was here, not the actual penalty.

 

Like I say, making it a defacto five second penalty just means I hammer it when off track to try and get at least five seconds out of it. Alsonso showed in Sochi how this kind of thing can backfire. 

[Squeed]

Until yesterday I would have disagreed with the need for a "penalty loop"/long lap penalty like in MotoGP, but think that it would be a great idea at tracks it is possible.*

 

It would avoid drivers trying to navigate when and how to give places back, it would also avoid tacking time onto a result (unless it was a penalty in the closing laps). It would be great to aim for about a 5 second time loss, but that too may be difficult at some venues, the stewards could even ask a driver to serve more than one when needed.

 

*It has been mentioned before

 

If you have a front-limited car, the long laps as they're designed on MotoGP circuits will punish you more than a car that is rear-limited.  

Also, I believe that F1 cars are too quick for a long lap to have much of a punitive effect unless someone is right on your gearbox. 

Edited by Squeed, 07 December 2021 - 18:37.

[cpbell]

 

 

Stop enabling this behavior, FIA and Masi.  I think true racing fans are sick of it.  Absolutely sick and tired of it all.  I want to watch hard, clean racing.  Not the BS we've been seeing.

Hear, hear!  I don't care who does it - it ruins the sport for me.

[Squeed]

Hear, hear!  I don't care who does it - it ruins the sport for me.

 

Part of the problem is they need to stop designing circuits that are too narrow for racing.  This circuit was designed for the battles to occur on approach to the corners, with one of the drivers conceding before turn in.  It absolutely cannot provide racing through the corners because there is no way to do that without one or both going to the runoff and/or making contact. 

Edited by Squeed, 07 December 2021 - 18:48.

[smitten]

Part of the problem is they need to stop designing circuits that are too narrow for racing. 

And yet older circuits are often narrower than the modern ones.  I think it's more the cars are too big, than the circuit too narrow.

[Squeed]

And yet older circuits are often narrower than the modern ones.  I think it's more the cars are too big, than the circuit too narrow.

 

Absolutely, it's the combination of the two.  The cars in the 70s and 80s were tiny...coffins with wings and wheels.  But for today's F1, the new circuits need to be designed for today's cars. 

[MikeTekRacing]

Imagine giving Norris a drive through for what happened in Austria...

it would have been fair considering the impact on the other driver

[ClubmanGT]

Absolutely, it's the combination of the two.  The cars in the 70s and 80s were tiny...coffins with wings and wheels.  But for today's F1, the new circuits need to be designed for today's cars. 

 

I remember Sepang being a bit of a revelation when F1 first went there. 

 

How much smaller were the cars then? 

[Squeed]

I remember Sepang being a bit of a revelation when F1 first went there. 

 

How much smaller were the cars then? 

 

1999 regs, maybe 25-30% shorter wheel base, 150kg lighter.

[JRodrigues]

This 'giving the place back' issue is only a problem when a driver is thinking about not giving it back in an honest way (like taking the place back with DRS the next straight). So to solve this issue just forbid to take the place back on the next straight or next couple of corners. Or just black flag Max because he's the one who's doing it and it's cheating.

 

So, Lewis should've been black flagged in Spa 2008, causing him to lose the 2008 title to Massa?

[jee]

Do we even need small penalties? While they might be more fair they're less deterrent. If we still only had 10s Stop&Go penalties, drivers would not try to gain and keep these little advantages.

[Singularity]

Don't need to build anything, just give a drive thru penalty. The 5 and 10 second penalties are too lenient for most infractions they are used for anyway. Penalties are not just to punish, but should be harsh enough to be a deterrent.

I think you forget that the time penalties are there because a drive through basically equals game over in most cases. That means that the stewards were, and would be, very hesitant to give out such a penalty and many infringements would go unpunished. Long lap penalty has worked great in MotoGP and nobody want to go back to drive thru or time penalties. I see no reason why it would not work for cars.

Edited by Singularity, 09 December 2021 - 10:35.

[as65p]

One of the main problems would be that in F1 track position counts for so much more than in MotoGP. In F1 we frequently having quicker cars not able to overtake. In those situations a time loss is almost meaningless for that quicker, chasing car.

[Myrvold]

What I mean is, if you go off track and don’t come to a complete stop, you get a penalty. Drive through the pits would be the lowest.

The reason I say if you don’t come to a complete stop is to stop penalties being given for genuine spins and other issues which might cause you to leave the track. It also means it provides a well understood means of not getting an advantage.

For example: You outbrake yourself going into turn 1. If you accelerate through the runoff, and don’t stop, you’ve gained an illegal advantage and must serve a drive through. However, if you come to a complete stop, you may proceed with no further action from the stewards.

 

I mean V8 Supercars and NASCAR manage to have this. "Missing a chicane. Come to a stop on the inside of the exit, or get a harsher penalty," Usually a drive-through (or pass-through as some call it)

[Clatter]

I think you forget that the time penalties are there because a drive through basically equals game over in most cases. That means that the stewards were, and would be, very hesitant to give out such a penalty and many infringements would go unpunished. Long lap penalty has worked great in MotoGP and nobody want to go back to drive thru or time penalties. I see no reason why it would not work for cars.

Nope, I have not forgotten anything. I don't agree with time penalties because they are more often than not, too lenient, and they don't act as a deterrent.

[Clatter]

One of the main problems would be that in F1 track position counts for so much more than in MotoGP. In F1 we frequently having quicker cars not able to overtake. In those situations a time loss is almost meaningless for that quicker, chasing car.

Happens far less often with DRS. It's now far to easy for a faster car to pass.

[PayasYouRace]

I mean V8 Supercars and NASCAR manage to have this. "Missing a chicane. Come to a stop on the inside of the exit, or get a harsher penalty," Usually a drive-through (or pass-through as some call it)

 

I'm glad to hear that "my idea" isn't actually my idea at all but implemented in other series.

 

Then again, you have just awakened a long lost memory of NASCAR Racing 4's spotter saying "You cut across the inner loop without stopping" and getting a penalty for missing that chicane at Watkins Glen. Clearly that's where the idea came from.

[Frank Tuesday]

F1 already has Deltas on the dash. F1 can use these and just give drivers a delta time. No long lap, no stop and go box, no pit limiter Lane, etc. Just take the best time of the privious three laps and give them a +5 delta time based on that lap.

[jee]

F1 already has Deltas on the dash. F1 can use these and just give drivers a delta time. No long lap, no stop and go box, no pit limiter Lane, etc. Just take the best time of the privious three laps and give them a +5 delta time based on that lap.

This will create far worst situations than not wanting to overtake before a DRS detection zone. Can you image a driver serve his penalty around Monaco trying not to be overtaken? 

[prty]

Isn't it easier to just say that when giving a place back, you need to let the other driver do two corners (or however many are necessary) ahead of you? Problem solved.

Edited by prty, 12 December 2021 - 07:38.

[Winterapfel]

Isn't it easier to just say that when giving a place back, you need to let the other driver do two corners (or however many are necessary) ahead of you? Problem solved.

Or that you need to be > 1 sec behind at the next (sector time) detection point?

[PayasYouRace]

Isn't it easier to just say that when giving a place back, you need to let the other driver do two corners (or however many are necessary) ahead of you? Problem solved.

 

 

Or that you need to be > 1 sec behind at the next (sector time) detection point?

 

I don't think either of those things are harsh enough to be effective, and would be too easily gamed by the drivers.

[prty]

I don't think either of those things are harsh enough to be effective, and would be too easily gamed by the drivers.

 

How so? If the main problem is profiting from the slipstream just after giving the place back, then spending two corners behind gets rid of that. Anything harsher would mean ending up in a worse position than before doing the offending overtake, and it would disencourage overtaking. If the problem is DRS, then say that you can't use DRS to overtake the car you just let by.

Edited by prty, 12 December 2021 - 09:09.