106 replies to this topic

[Cyanide]

This discussion came up in the Saudi race thread and I thought it'd be interesting to get people's thoughts on it. It's not a new topic by any means, but considering it's quite a big stain on the championship given both contenders have done it to each other and the rest of the field as well in the past, I feel like it's still quite a relevant debate. 

 

Basically, pushing drivers off track has become quite popular, and I feel like it's now the predominant way of racing when a car tries to pass around the outside (Hamilton vs. Verstappen on numerous occasions, Norris vs. Perez, Hamilton vs. Albon, Leclerc vs. Verstappen, Alonso vs. Raikkonen USA 2021, etc.)

 

This kind of move always leads to controversy, as some drivers just go off track and don't give the place back, other times it leads to a collision, hence in my view it completely ruins racing and the FIA should have policed it properly and not allow this penalty roulette to happen. 

 

In my opinion, overtaking around the outside should be allowed and drivers should not push each other off track. While the car on the inside has the right to the corner, if the other car is alongside, they should be given a fair chance to have at it, rather than punish the move. Of course, this is more relevant when there is a run off area next to you, instead of a gravel trap or grass, but the latter is less common in today's circuits. 

 

What do you think?

 

(please keep in mind this is not a 'Verstappen is a dirty driver' thread and we should not dig out past incidents too much or make it a driver vs. driver thread). 

 

 

 

Edited by Cyanide, 08 December 2021 - 10:18.

[Ivanhoe]

This discussion came up in the Saudi race thread and I thought it'd be interesting to get people's thoughts on it. It's not a new topic by any means, but considering it's quite a big stain on the championship given both contenders have done it to each other and the rest of the field as well in the past, I feel like it's still quite a relevant debate. 

 

Basically, pushing drivers off track has become quite popular, and I feel like it's now the predominant way of racing when a car tries to pass around the outside (Hamilton vs. Verstappen on numerous occasions, Norris vs. Perez, Hamilton vs. Albon, Leclerc vs. Verstappen, Alonso vs. Raikkonen USA 2021, etc.)

 

This kind of move always leads to controversy, as some drivers just go off track and don't give the place back, other times it leads to a collision, hence in my view it completely ruins racing and the FIA should have policed it properly and not allow this penalty roulette to happen. 

 

In my opinion, overtaking around the outside should be allowed and drivers should not push each other off track. While the car on the inside has the right to the corner, if the other car is alongside, they should be given a fair chance to have at it, rather than punish the move. Of course, this is more relevant when there is a run off area next to you, instead of a gravel trap or grass, but the latter is less common in today's circuits. 

 

What do you think?

 

(please keep in mind this is not a 'Verstappen is a dirty driver' thread and we should not dig out past incidents too much or make it a driver vs. driver thread). 

We could do with some guidance about how far the driver must be alongside to be entitled to the corner. I don't like claiming a piece of tarmac by optimistically sticking your nose alongside, just because there's no downside of such move as there's a tarmac run off anyway. We really need more grass and gravel, would solve a lot of issues.

[Beamer]

Hide. Quick.

[TheFish]

I want to say that this isn't driver specific, it's not meant to be a my guy is better than your guy thing. Most, if not all, drivers do it when the situation is right for it.

 

It's now often (but not always) acceptable to give a driver no space and force him into a 'yield or crash' situation and this seems like it's very detrimental to racing to me and I think we need to change the rules to stamp this out. Banning people from pushing others off track potentially allows for battles to last for several corners as each driver is compromised. Had Max given Lewis space in turn 4 yesterday we may have had some side by side action into the Lesmos as both would have had compromised exits from the chicane. We could have had the same if Lewis was forced to give Max more space when they collided.

 

It's also increasingly inconsistent. We've had Norris and Perez getting penalties in Austria for pushing people wide and yet in other situations we've had no penalties, such as lap 1 yesterday. It's not just this season either, yesterday Ocon was penalised for doing a very similar thing to Leclerc in 2019 who received no penalty.

 

There is another thread to discuss the Max V Lewis incident yesterday, this is more for the act of forcing another driver off the circuit in general.

I wrote this in https://forums.autos...f-space/page-10

[Kev00]

I’ve always been of the opinion that if you choose to defend on the inside on entry then you have to be prepared to exit on the inside and leave room on the outside if a car is there. Defending the inside and then just aiming for the exit kerb on the outside is just too easy. But there’s this interpretation that if you have the inside then you have a right to the corner which means you can push the other guy off. It’s something I hear from Brundle a lot which I find irritating.

[messy]

We could do with some guidance about how far the driver must be alongside to be entitled to the corner. I don't like claiming a piece of tarmac by optimistically sticking your nose alongside, just because there's no downside of such move as there's a tarmac run off anyway. We really need more grass and gravel, would solve a lot of issues.

 

This is the crux. An around the outside pass used to be something brilliant, something to be celebrated, because they had to be done properly. They required balls of steel, perfect placement, a moment of brilliance which is why those moves by Mansell, Piquet, even Coulthard, are rightly remembered. Now, you can just stick your nose alongside knowing that you'll just plunge off deeper into the car park at worst and might even manage to keep the place. 

[Cyanide]

We could do with some guidance about how far the driver must be alongside to be entitled to the corner. I don't like claiming a piece of tarmac by optimistically sticking your nose alongside, just because there's no downside of such move as there's a tarmac run off anyway. We really need more grass and gravel, would solve a lot of issues.

 

The thing is, we do have a gravel trap for example in Austria at T3, but it doesn't stop drivers on the inside pushing others off into it. 

The detrimental problem still seems to be that, whether the outside is a run off area, grass or gravel, the driver on the inside still feels entitled to the corner to the point where the driver on the outside basically has no right to stay alongside.

[MJB5990]

Super tough to get a ruling because nearly every situation is different.

With everything going on, it's hard NOT to refer to Lewis and Max.

If you do try and push someone on the outside wide, you must make the corner yourself. That's easy to enforce, although the stewards don't seem to be able to.

In other situations it depends on the specifics.

[KeithD68]

The answer is for each one... depends

 

Take the first question.  The principle is leave room, but what if its a chicane with room for only 1 car? 

 

There are exceptions to principles... and that's why we have race directors and stewards

 

What is missing is consistency, that is what needs to be fixed

Edited by KeithD68, 08 December 2021 - 10:41.

[Clatter]

I don't believe being on the racing line is a valid excuse for pushing a driver off, but it has very much become the accepted norm. Doesn't matter if it is on the inside or the outside of a corner, the effect is the same. If the attacking driver can get in the gap, is under control, and can make the corner, then they should be entitled to the space.

[Eff1]

I've always thought the tarmac run-offs have gotten us into this situation, where drivers feel free to push each other wide or stick their nose on the outside to "claim" they were pushed off later.

 

I never understood why not have a cars width strip of gravel outside the white line/kerbs to deter drivers doing this.....you can keep the asphalt runoff beyond the strip to the barriers. The gravel at least will slow/damage the car which will ensure drivers don't just drive over there. Perhaps it'll bring back a bit more respect between attacking/defending driver too.

[Cyanide]

I've always thought the tarmac run-offs have gotten us into this situation, where drivers feel free to push each other wide or stick their nose on the outside to "claim" they were pushed off later.

 

I never understood why not have a cars width strip of gravel outside the white line/kerbs to deter drivers doing this.....you can keep the asphalt runoff beyond the strip to the barriers. The gravel at least will slow/damage the car which will ensure drivers don't just drive over there. Perhaps it'll bring back a bit more respect between attacking/defending driver too.

 

I think they need to ensure the driver on the outside is given a fair chance for the overtake, more than anything.

 

I don't see how putting a strip of gravel around the outside helps the problem - the car on the inside will still push the other out and gain an even bigger advantage. 

[cpbell]

It has to depend on the individual case, as, sometimes, especially in higher-speed corners, the driver on the inside may not be able to turn sharper if the driver atttempting the pass appears on their outside once they're heading to the apex.

[Stephane]

In many cases, the driver attacks on the outside because the other defends the inside. You cannot then pretend "i did not know he was there". You're either blind or stupid if you say so.

[YorkF1Fan]

I don't know how they will police it, it'll always vary by the which stewards are at the event but all i know is i don't like the excuse Horner was giving that if both drivers go wild it's all ok, this shouldn't be like football where there has to be contact for the offense to be called. If someone blocks you from turning into a corner you're probably going to go wide.

[SenorSjon]

Did we have this situation in Zandvoort? It has chicanes and possibilities for the outside, yet the risks are far greater than 'keepyourfootdown' runoffs we see so much these days. 

 

We have numerous incidents every other race now, not only the high-profile ones, but also many other overtake attempts like Kimi vs Vettel last race. Just keep the car there and see when you get hit.

[Ivanhoe]

I think they need to ensure the driver on the outside is given a fair chance for the overtake, more than anything.

 

I don't see how putting a strip of gravel around the outside helps the problem - the car on the inside will still push the other out and gain an even bigger advantage. 

Don't know. I think the tarmac run off leads to more over-optimistic moves arond the outside (going for an overtake that's not really on), but also to harsher defending, as you normally will be more hesitant to push your opponent in the gravel or grass than on a piece of tarmac run off. We've also seen that pushing a driver in the gravel has been penalized, where whenever there's tarmac it's waved aside with "let them race". Think it would definitely improve racing.

[Gareth]

We could do with some guidance about how far the driver must be alongside to be entitled to the corner.

Yeah, I couldn't complete the poll as there wasn't really any allowance in the 2nd and 3rd questions for any distinction depending on how far the driver on the outside is alongside. Which is pretty key to how it is interpreted currently, and IMO must be pretty key for the future.

 

Currently:

• On the inside, you get a car's width if you're half way up.
• On the outside, you get a car's width if you're equal or ahead.

I don't think in either scenario (inside or outside) should you get a car's width if you're less than halfway alongside. That will just see an end to defending IMO.

 

The debatable one for me is on the outside - should it be equal/ahead, or should halfway up be sufficient?

[Jovanotti]

Being allowed to push the attacking driver off track on exit leads to shitty racing or kills it. We all know that, but it seems to be accepted nowadays, which is a shame.

[TheFish]

Yeah, I couldn't complete the poll as there wasn't really any allowance in the 2nd and 3rd questions for any distinction depending on how far the driver on the outside is alongside. Which is pretty key to how it is interpreted currently, and IMO must be pretty key for the future.

 

Currently:

• On the inside, you get a car's width if you're half way up.
• On the outside, you get a car's width if you're equal or ahead.

I don't think in either scenario (inside or outside) should you get a car's width if you're less than halfway alongside. That will just see an end to defending IMO.

 

The debatable one for me is on the outside - should it be equal/ahead, or should halfway up be sufficient?

You will still see defending, it's just different. You get the choice as the lead car to go to the inside or outside. You will have to take a different line to usual and you will need to plan for it to last for several corners. It will require plenty more skill than just shutting the door on someone.

[OneAndOnly]

Put gravel traps and problem solved. It's psychology. Passing on the outside is harder than passing on the inside, but drivers seem to try it more often than before. They know if they fail they can run wide, return position back if they got it outside of track and move on. In the end risk is more than acceptable. OTOH driver on the inside knows that as well and will shut the door if he can and push other driver off the track.

It takes well balanced car and a lot of skill to execute overtaking on the outside. Much more than we see these days.

[Ivanhoe]

Yeah, I couldn't complete the poll as there wasn't really any allowance in the 2nd and 3rd questions for any distinction depending on how far the driver on the outside is alongside. Which is pretty key to how it is interpreted currently, and IMO must be pretty key for the future.

 

Currently:

• On the inside, you get a car's width if you're half way up.
• On the outside, you get a car's width if you're equal or ahead.

I don't think in either scenario (inside or outside) should you get a car's width if you're less than halfway alongside. That will just see an end to defending IMO.

 

The debatable one for me is on the outside - should it be equal/ahead, or should halfway up be sufficient?

Also, at what point do you determine if the car is sufficientlly alongside. Apex, corner entry (and where does that start)?

[Peter3hg]

Also, at what point do you determine if the car is sufficientlly alongside. Apex, corner entry (and where does that start)?

 

Or the braking point as in some corners that is where a driver is committed to taking a line.

[PlatenGlass]

It has to depend on the individual case, as, sometimes, especially in higher-speed corners, the driver on the inside may not be able to turn sharper if the driver atttempting the pass appears on their outside once they're heading to the apex.

I think it's different if they suddenly appear there, but it tends to be that the driver attempting the pass has been at least partly alongside for some time. In that case I don't think it matters how far alongside they are. You can't just push them off.

But it does complicate things a bit if there's another corner straight afterwards going the other way (e.g. Hamilton/Rosberg at Belgium 2014).

[Clatter]

Yeah, I couldn't complete the poll as there wasn't really any allowance in the 2nd and 3rd questions for any distinction depending on how far the driver on the outside is alongside. Which is pretty key to how it is interpreted currently, and IMO must be pretty key for the future.

 

Currently:

• On the inside, you get a car's width if you're half way up.
• On the outside, you get a car's width if you're equal or ahead.

I don't think in either scenario (inside or outside) should you get a car's width if you're less than halfway alongside. That will just see an end to defending IMO.

 

The debatable one for me is on the outside - should it be equal/ahead, or should halfway up be sufficient?

 

The flipside is the end of attacking.

[Maustinsj]

Easy - fit all cars with protractors and let battle commence!

[LightningMcQueen]

Defending Drivers should be allowed to gently run the opposition out of road as had always been the case as Long at the car isn’t clearly in front ..

Defending drivers, when they have effectively been passed cannot simply throw a Hail Mary up the inside cutting off the opposition driver with zero intent to make the corner..

Overtaking around the outside will always be a risk, but there should be a reward, the second scenario changes the risk / reward balance so much it will spell the end of overtaking on the outside

[Roadhouse]

Also, at what point do you determine if the car is sufficientlly alongside. Apex, corner entry (and where does that start)?

 

And was the car's position realistic, because if you don't brake you'll be in front at those points. Would be nice if you could objectively judge braking points, being partly (debatable how much) alongside with a realistic braking point should grant you space.

[PayasYouRace]

Yeah, I couldn't complete the poll as there wasn't really any allowance in the 2nd and 3rd questions for any distinction depending on how far the driver on the outside is alongside. Which is pretty key to how it is interpreted currently, and IMO must be pretty key for the future.

Currently:

• On the inside, you get a car's width if you're half way up.
• On the outside, you get a car's width if you're equal or ahead.

I don't think in either scenario (inside or outside) should you get a car's width if you're less than halfway alongside. That will just see an end to defending IMO.

The debatable one for me is on the outside - should it be equal/ahead, or should halfway up be sufficient?

To be honest I think if an attacking driver establishes any overlap whatsoever, they should be entitled to space.

Good defending comes from clever car placement, not by closing off space. There are also still going to be gaps that will close by virtue of the defending driver turning for the apex before the attacker is alongside, so I think that covers the worry of divebomb moves. As we’ve seen, they develop into the car being fully alongside very quickly.

[andrewf1]

We could do with some guidance about how far the driver must be alongside to be entitled to the corner. I don't like claiming a piece of tarmac by optimistically sticking your nose alongside, just because there's no downside of such move as there's a tarmac run off anyway. We really need more grass and gravel, would solve a lot of issues.

 

Mercedes had a guideline informally sent to them by Charlie Whiting back in 2015, when Lewis and Nico were fighting on track.

They were trying to establish clear rules of engagement within the team, asked the FIA about it and received this document as a reponse from Charlie.

 

This is what Toto showed to Masi in Silverstone this year. But it turns out, it was never an official guideline issued to all teams, just an informal response from Charlie to Merc. 

 

 

It's fairly reasonable, but Masi had never seen it and we all know how it means jack shi*t to Max Verstappen, for whom the rules don't apply.

Edited by andrewf1, 08 December 2021 - 11:43.

[w1Y]

We could do with some guidance about how far the driver must be alongside to be entitled to the corner. I don't like claiming a piece of tarmac by optimistically sticking your nose alongside, just because there's no downside of such move as there's a tarmac run off anyway. We really need more grass and gravel, would solve a lot of issues.

I agree with this. I think the main problem people have with Max is he doesn't see any particular point of the corner where he thinks he needs to concede the corner and that's defending but also mainly attacking. His approach os too much like someone trying to barge themselves into the position.

I see no problem drivers closing rhe door as long as they aren't taking a really unnatural line or results in then unable to make the corner safely.

[Ivanhoe]

I see no problem drivers closing rhe door as long as they aren't taking a really unnatural line or results in then unable to make the corner safely.

Yeah, Verstappen at T4 Brazil and T1 Jeddah are obvious examples, but we've also seen drivers doing it more subtle. I think Lewis also took a wider line and missed the apex by quite some margin in T1 Jeddah at the first restart. Question here is also, what's the line  between eratic driving and hard, but acceptable defending. It's not easy to draw a line I think (other than Max overstepped it clearly in Brazil and Jeddah).

[Laster]

I can understand pushing the driver around the outside off track if they only have half a car alongside, because then it’s speculative, they have’t really gotten enough of their car alongside as they enter the braking zone to really have earned the right to be given that much room. But if the car is completely alongside up to having their front wing alongside the defending drivers front wheel, then at the point I feel they’ve gotten significantly alongside to the point they deserve some room.

I also specify as they enter the braking zone because with it being a case of whoever gets to the apex first owns the corner, it invites the defending driver to just dive for the apex no matter the consequences on corner exit.

It does annoy me that drivers more often than not can just shove the person on the outside off (they all do it.) What I like to see is two drivers managing to go through corner after corner side by side, that’s racing at its most intense and thrilling in my mind, but you just don’t get it when you can run the outside driver off the road if they aren’t already edging ahead on corner exit.

[Retrofly]

It has everything to do with where the cars are before the corner. If you are behind then the car in-front can take any line they want. If you are along side you need leave a cars width.

The confusion comes when the FIA punish/don't punish for the same kinds on incidents, and when people don't take into account where the cars were on entry to the corner. They see a car alongside at the exit and say "he has right to space" when all they did was let of the breaks and try and run it around the outside.

 

If we had consistency from the FIA it wouldn't be as much of a problem,

I would love for someone to do a compilation of such moves and have a break down of how they should have been judged Vs how the outcome actually was.

 

Off the top of my head I can think of 2 such incidents, both at Monza, Leclerc Vs hamilton, Leclerc squeezes Hamilton off track on entry, no penalty. Max does the exact same move to Bottas, max gets a pen. Only diff was one had contact and the other drove off circuit to avoid. But the move and outcomes were the same. You could probably do this a dozen times just for the last several seasons of racing, in the last 3 races we've seen 4 or 5 moves with wildly varying outcomes.

Edited by Retrofly, 08 December 2021 - 11:52.

[Tenmantaylor]

Unless you 100% know you are infront/clear, leave space. Failure to leave space is crowding off track. The difficult bit is when people try stick a nose in at the last minute and claim to be alongside. Therefore the rule should be the overtaking car (wether inside or outside) will be deemed to be eligible to be left racing room if they got *fully* alongside before turn in. Very hard to police but we've got enough tech to do it. Just tell them the rules and make the racing fairer/better.

 

The before turn in bit is crucial. As it prevents dive bombs (inside or outside).

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 08 December 2021 - 12:05.

[Burtros]

Running people out of space on the outside isn’t acceptable and never should have been.

I’m sick of watching the defending driver make no attempt to make an apex in an effort to run their rival out of space.

ALL the drivers are guilty of it.

[SenorSjon]

Don't know. I think the tarmac run off leads to more over-optimistic moves arond the outside (going for an overtake that's not really on), but also to harsher defending, as you normally will be more hesitant to push your opponent in the gravel or grass than on a piece of tarmac run off. We've also seen that pushing a driver in the gravel has been penalized, where whenever there's tarmac it's waved aside with "let them race". Think it would definitely improve racing.

 

If there is gravel, there is great risk the guy you pushed off spins into your side. That risk is greatly reduced with run-offs. A prime example of keeping your foot down is Kimi in I believe 2018 where he had a big crash at Silverstone due to running out of run-of (it happens!)

 

It has everything to do with where the cars are before the corner. If you are behind then the car in-front can take any line they want. If you are along side you need leave a cars width.

The confusion comes when the FIA punish/don't punish for the same kinds on incidents, and when people don't take into account where the cars were on entry to the corner. They see a car alongside at the exit and say "he has right to space" when all they did was let of the breaks and try and run it around the outside.

 

If we had consistency from the FIA it wouldn't be as much of a problem,

I would love for someone to do a compilation of such moves and have a break down of how they should have been judged Vs how the outcome actually was.

 

Off the top of my head I can think of 2 such incidents, both at Monza, Leclerc Vs hamilton, Leclerc squeezes Hamilton off track on entry, no penalty. Max does the exact same move to Bottas, max gets a pen. Only diff was one had contact and the other drove off circuit to avoid. But the move and outcomes were the same. You could probably do this a dozen times just for the last several seasons of racing, in the last 3 races we've seen 4 or 5 moves with wildly varying outcomes.

 

Indeed this. When is the guy alongside enough? We've seen moves like Leclerc and Verstappen in Austria 2019 and yoiu could argue Perez/Norris in Austria this year where you could brake late and still claim the inside guy pushed you off. More of a grey area is the first restart last race. Verstappen was able to make the line, only for Lewis to push him wide. I still think they should have treated it like a regular restart, so with everyone in their original position from the first restart.

Both have done that a lot. 1) sticking it there where it doesn't belong and 2. run the outside car out of the road. There should almost be a line where it concede who 'owns' that corner. Pass it first and the turn is yours.

Edited by SenorSjon, 08 December 2021 - 12:10.

[Ali623]

If the driver going round the outside has clearly got their nose in front going into/through the corner, yes they should be entitled to space. Otherwise the driver on the inside is entitled to take the racing line, and the outside driver should back-off (or get squeezed off if they try it). There's always the cut-back which is generally a safer option anyway.

Edited by Ali623, 08 December 2021 - 12:13.

[TheFish]

If the driver going round the outside has clearly got their nose in front going into/through the corner, yes they should be entitled to space. Otherwise the driver on the inside is entitled to take the racing line, and the outside driver should back-off (or get squeezed off if they try it). There's always the cut-back which is generally a safer option anyway.

Why should the outside driver be squeezed out?

 

Like Baku for example, obviously has walls around the outside. People who go down the inside at turn 1 have to leave space on the outside, otherwise there will be contact and potentially race ending contact.

[Burtros]

If the driver going round the outside has clearly got their nose in front going into/through the corner, yes they should be entitled to space. Otherwise the driver on the inside is entitled to take the racing line, and the outside driver should back-off (or get squeezed off if they try it). There's always the cut-back which is generally a safer option anyway.

The defending driver rarely takes the ‘racing line’ any longer.

It’s nothing more than shoving an opponent of the track.

[Ali623]

Why should the outside driver be squeezed out?

 

Like Baku for example, obviously has walls around the outside. People who go down the inside at turn 1 have to leave space on the outside, otherwise there will be contact and potentially race ending contact.

 

If his nose is behind, yeah. That's always been the case in racing, as far as I'm aware, and overtaking round the outside has always been risky. (Also in case anyone mentions it, not defending Verstappen, both his defences were over the line as he missed the corner completely)

 

Well going round the outside in a street circuit is very risky yes.

[Sterzo]

It has to depend on the individual case, as, sometimes, especially in higher-speed corners, the driver on the inside may not be able to turn sharper if the driver atttempting the pass appears on their outside once they're heading to the apex.

This point has received far too little attention. If I may give the FIA the benefit of my karting experience, I reckoned if I could tighten my line on exit I obviously hadn't entered the corner fast enough. If someone gets partly alongside before braking, then obviously you must give room. But if it's during braking, how on Earth do you do that? Some road layouts make it possible, but many don't.

 

Where I would see a clear transgression is when someone moves off the racing line to edge another driver off.

 

Attempts round the outside are much more common in recent F1 than they used to be. Why? Because it's seen as acceptable to go off-line to block the inside, which is the natural overtaking route. Maybe that's the root of the problem.

[Clatter]

This point has received far too little attention. If I may give the FIA the benefit of my karting experience, I reckoned if I could tighten my line on exit I obviously hadn't entered the corner fast enough. If someone gets partly alongside before braking, then obviously you must give room. But if it's during braking, how on Earth do you do that? Some road layouts make it possible, but many don't.

 

Where I would see a clear transgression is when someone moves off the racing line to edge another driver off.

 

Attempts round the outside are much more common in recent F1 than they used to be. Why? Because it's seen as acceptable to go off-line to block the inside, which is the natural overtaking route. Maybe that's the root of the problem.

 

Then someone needs to define the racing line and exactly where it is. At the moment it is just some imaginary line that the driver can always claim to be on.

[Ali_G]

Then someone needs to define the racing line and exactly where it is. At the moment it is just some imaginary line that the driver can always claim to be on.

At Zandvoort the racing line changed over the weekend.

The outside of the corner was later taken as the racing line. This means being at the apex was being off the racing line.

It’s all meaningless as owning owning the racing line is complete bullshit.

[Rumblestrip]

I’m glad this particular topic is being revisited as imho it’s one of the biggest problems in f1 at the moment. Although that brings up the associated points…. What happens in other series? It seems such a fundamental piece of guidance I’m confused why this is being debated in the top tier single seater series. Surely the FIA have a view on racing standards and ensure it’s implemented In all FIA sanctioned races? What have I missed?

[MattPete]

In many cases, the driver attacks on the outside because the other defends the inside. You cannot then pretend "i did not know he was there". You're either blind or stupid if you say so.

 

 

...said by someone whose only view is from outside the cockpit.  You do realize that they only have one set of eyes, and they are pointed forward, correct?

[TheFish]

...said by someone whose only view is from outside the cockpit.  You do realize that they only have one set of eyes, and they are pointed forward, correct?

They also have ears. They know when other drivers are around them. They're the best in the world.

[RogerStone]

 

 

Basically, pushing drivers off track has become quite popular

 

It's been part of racing forever,  it's not new at all.  It hasn't just become a thing.  Without naming drivers - some have been using that tactic for their entire careers and not much said about it and no penalties for them doing so.

[Myrvold]

Yeah, I couldn't complete the poll as there wasn't really any allowance in the 2nd and 3rd questions for any distinction depending on how far the driver on the outside is alongside. Which is pretty key to how it is interpreted currently, and IMO must be pretty key for the future.

 

Currently:

• On the inside, you get a car's width if you're half way up.
• On the outside, you get a car's width if you're equal or ahead.

I don't think in either scenario (inside or outside) should you get a car's width if you're less than halfway alongside. That will just see an end to defending IMO.

 

The debatable one for me is on the outside - should it be equal/ahead, or should halfway up be sufficient?

 

It's also somewhat different if you are attacking or defending. Granted it was teammates and they never pushed each other to the limit, but e.g Sainz and Leclerc in the last race. Sainz being the one who makes the move, he never clears Leclerc, they are side by side all the time (as in Leclercs front wheels are never behind the start of the sidepods of Sainz). Sainz never completes the pass until there is no space left for Leclerc on the track. In situations like that, I feel that Leclerc, as he kept being side by side during the corner, had a right to be there, and Sainz should leave room. If Leclerc had been the attack, and never gotten further up than the sidepods, then that's another thing, but then again, they are teammates, so the fight would likely not been that way if it had been against another team.

[P123]

It depends on the scenario, so it's not a straight yes or no, as the car on the outside can be as culpable for being off track as that on the inside.  The temptation is there for drivers to keep the right foot planted, take too much speed in and use the tarmac run off, whereas ordinarily with grass and gravel they would back out.  The car on the outside is not always a victim.  We saw this at T1 in Austin after the start, where several went wide at T1, because it was advantageous rather than the other option, to back out of it.

 

If a car is ahead or predominantly alongside going into the corner, then it has earned space, providing it's not doing the thing I mentioned above.