41 replies to this topic

[Dunky1980]

I've never been a fan of the safety car. I understand we need it for safety. But it's unfair to be able to build up a lead and had it all wiped out.

So why not a rule change. After the safety car has gone in. All cars lineup on the gird. All cars then leave individually with the gap they had over the car before the safety car come out.

Would have been less drama for the Grand Prix today but would have been a fairer way to do it.

[anyeis]

I think the pits need to just be closed like in the old days

[Myrvold]

All cars then leave individually with the gap they had over the car before the safety car come out.

 

How will that work if a car is 2 seconds away from being lapped? Standing still while the leader approaches at 300 km/h? Leave from the pits? That driver will still be lapped and lose a lot in comparison. 

 

I think the pits need to just be closed like in the old days

 

Then the big difference happens if one driver pits right before the SC and the other not being able to.

[Dunky1980]

How will that work if a car is 2 seconds away from being lapped? Standing still while the leader approaches at 300 km/h? Leave from the pits? That driver will still be lapped and lose a lot in comparison.

Good point there has got to be a better way of doing it.

[JHSingo]

Is this a mickey take, or meant to be serious? No offence, but that's genuinely a terrible idea. 

 

The luck/bad luck drivers receive from safety cars naturally balances out over a season. It is what it is. 

[pdac]

I think the pits need to just be closed like in the old days

 

Indeed. I've been saying for ages that they should close the pit exit during a safety car. Anyone that comes into the pits has to wait there and drops back as many laps as it goes on. Having said that, I'd be fine with just one lap being lost.

[pdac]

Then the big difference happens if one driver pits right before the SC and the other not being able to.

 

I think it would be wholly possible to use the VSC technology to bring the cars back up to speed and replace approximate gaps between them rather than having a SC restart. If they did that, the unfairness of having to deploy the SC would be greatly reduced.

[Dunky1980]

Is this a mickey take, or meant to be serious? No offence, but that's genuinely a terrible idea.

The luck/bad luck drivers receive from safety cars naturally balances out over a season. It is what it is.

I'm being serious why would a driver want to build up a big lead when it can all be wiped out by a safety car. Everybody moans about drivers not pushing and conserving they're tyres.

Trying to think of a fairer way to have a safety car. In the days of Mansell, Senna Prost there was no safety car.

[Frank Tuesday]

I've never been a fan of the safety car. I understand we need it for safety. But it's unfair to be able to build up a lead and had it all wiped out.

So why not a rule change. After the safety car has gone in. All cars lineup on the gird. All cars then leave individually with the gap they had over the car before the safety car come out.

Would have been less drama for the Grand Prix today but would have been a fairer way to do it.

Just give drivers a delta that corresponds to the same gap to the leader when the SC was called.

[Frank Tuesday]

I'm being serious why would a driver want to build up a big lead when it can all be wiped out by a safety car. Everybody moans about drivers not pushing and conserving they're tyres.

Trying to think of a fairer way to have a safety car. In the days of Mansell, Senna Prost there was no safety car.

You're assuming the FIA and Liberty have any interest in fair. They only care about making it more exciting.

[Kev00]

There’s nothing wrong with a safety car. Keep it as it is.

[Frank Tuesday]

How will that work if a car is 2 seconds away from being lapped? Standing still while the leader approaches at 300 km/h? Leave from the pits? That driver will still be lapped and lose a lot in comparison.


Then the big difference happens if one driver pits right before the SC and the other not being able to.

. If they weren't already lapped, they would be less than a leader's lap time behind. So they'll be at full speed by the time the leader catches them. If they are a lap down, their time would be the extra time down. So if they were 1 lap and 12.74s behind, their "restart time" would be 12.74s after the leader.

[Shambolic]

The current system is a lot easier to follow than the old aggregate timing one was.

 

But is also in many ways less pure.

 

The sport has to decide which it prefers, a race simple enough even "Call me Crofty" can mostly follow it, or one where more attention is on the maths than the track.

[Clatter]

Is this a mickey take, or meant to be serious? No offence, but that's genuinely a terrible idea.

The luck/bad luck drivers receive from safety cars naturally balances out over a season. It is what it is.

Absolutly. Many seem to have forgotten how lucky Hamilton was with the safety car earlier in tbe season.

[CoolBreeze]

The SC period has always been a lottery. Just leave it as it is. 

[r4mses]

It's part of the sport, get over it. 

[w1Y]

VSC should be:
1. Closed Pits
2. At end of VSC there are 2 beeps 2 seconds apart starting when the lead car gets to the spot on the track where the VSC came out.

VSC could also instead apply a time penalty instead that has to be served at the pit stop and is the pre determined timed gained under a vsc. Probably easier. In fact ITS NOT THAT HARD TO MAKE FAIR.

I'm sure something fairer can be worked out for full SC. Maybe as you suggest they line up in pits and have a rally style light system using the time gaps at point SC was deployed but no tyre changes.

Edited by w1Y, 13 December 2021 - 01:26.

[JHSingo]

I'm being serious why would a driver want to build up a big lead when it can all be wiped out by a safety car. Everybody moans about drivers not pushing and conserving they're tyres.

Trying to think of a fairer way to have a safety car. In the days of Mansell, Senna Prost there was no safety car.

 

That's racing. You can do everything right on the day, and still not win through a combination of variable outside a driver's control. Safety cars, mechanical failures, weather etc etc. 

 

There's no possible way to make every race "fair", but even if there was, I don't know why you'd want to. Because it'd make the sport a hell of a lot more boring. Fairer, but more boring.

 

Racing gives and racing takes. I wonder if as many people would be as keen to rewrite the rule book if Hamilton had won, or if he had been the one to benefit from the safety car rather than Max? I doubt it.

Edited by JHSingo, 13 December 2021 - 01:43.

[ClubmanGT]

VSC should be:
1. Closed Pits
2. At end of VSC there are 2 beeps 2 seconds apart starting when the lead car gets to the spot on the track where the VSC came out.

VSC could also instead apply a time penalty instead that has to be served at the pit stop and is the pre determined timed gained under a vsc. Probably easier. In fact ITS NOT THAT HARD TO MAKE FAIR.

I'm sure something fairer can be worked out for full SC. Maybe as you suggest they line up in pits and have a rally style light system using the time gaps at point SC was deployed but no tyre changes.

 

This is insane. I can't think of another sport that demands the rules be changed because something happened that on this one day, their particular favourite driver didn't gain an advantage from. 

[w1Y]

It's about making it fairer for all drivers in the future. It isn't going tk change what happened.

I think at a minimum pitting under sc should be determined by the leading car. If they pit everyone can pit. If they don't then no one can. IMO it's too stscked against the leading car and in the future thay might be max, Lewis or anyone.

Why would imposing a time penalty for a vsc pit stop.be crazy? The whole point of the vsc is to make it fair

Edited by w1Y, 13 December 2021 - 01:46.

[mclarensmps]

I think the pits need to just be closed like in the old days

 

Conversely, everyone should be forced to pit, and line up at the end of the pit exit!

[ClubmanGT]

Why would imposing a time penalty for a vsc pit stop.be crazy? The whole point of the vsc is to make it fair

 

Because we there was literally no suggestion of anything remotely like this being needed until someone else other than LH benefited from it. 

[HeadFirst]

I have no issue with either the SC, or VSC being employed when needed. I do believe that lapped cars should remain in position as lapped cars, that must be passed under racing conditions. No free passes in F1, DRS is bad enough.

[Blue6ix]

I'm being serious why would a driver want to build up a big lead when it can all be wiped out by a safety car. Everybody moans about drivers not pushing and conserving they're tyres.

Trying to think of a fairer way to have a safety car. In the days of Mansell, Senna Prost there was no safety car.

 

Actually they had, meaning Mansell, Senna and Prost, Safety Car in their days.

 

In most occasions and majority for their careers, it went under different name and it wasn't simply used or had far, far more strict rules and guidelines to be used for which almost never didn't occur or if it did, organizers simply favorite red flags instead before the situation could be called for, normally either immediately or within two laps from the crash situation.

 

There were some few times back then when actually red flags didn't came so fast and when there were a Course Car situation, but even then they were very, very rare and always eventually ending with a red flag or confusion from the competitors because it were sent for a naught accidentally to the track with no use.

 

Starting from the 1992, meaning either their career near endings/endings, sabbatical or death eventually, Safety Car were officially re-introduced for the sport, but it inherited almost same strict rules and guidelines followed from the predecessor, Course Car era so it were used very sparingly.

 

Though possibly without the late Charlie Whiting's input on the matter, official comeback for the Safety Car would have possibly been even longer than that in the season of 1992.

Edited by Blue6ix, 13 December 2021 - 06:11.

[Dunky1980]

This is insane. I can't think of another sport that demands the rules be changed because something happened that on this one day, their particular favourite driver didn't gain an advantage from.

Just trying to think of a fairer system. To be fair on Hamilton he did lead 57 laps of a 58 laps.

[Hellenic tifosi]

I 'm all in for changing SC,VSC,RF rules, but I hope that some people do realise that a "fairer" system would have meant championship over for quite some time now.

[Dunky1980]

I 'm all in for changing SC,VSC,RF rules, but I hope that some people do realise that a "fairer" system would have meant championship over for quite some time now.

I want a sport not X Factor entertainment. Otherwise let copy formula e and have the fan boost.

[JimmyClark]

The red flag rules need changing, but not the safety car. So many dull races have only been livened up due to safety cars - it is part of the sport. Yes sometimes some drivers have bad luck being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but it evens out over time.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

How will that work if a car is 2 seconds away from being lapped? Standing still while the leader approaches at 300 km/h? Leave from the pits? That driver will still be lapped and lose a lot in comparison.

That is easily solved - let's be honest if they are you set the maximum gap to 30 seconds (changeable for track conditions) OR you make them ALL go through the pitlane on the first lap as they restart?

But wasn't that why the VSC was in introduced - all though not all accidents can be cleared using the VSC as you want a clear track... the VSC can not do that...

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 13 December 2021 - 08:37.

[oli4]

Indeed. I've been saying for ages that they should close the pit exit during a safety car. Anyone that comes into the pits has to wait there and drops back as many laps as it goes on. Having said that, I'd be fine with just one lap being lost.

So when there's an accident, you drive over the debris destroying your tire and the pit is closed? There will never be a rule that's fair for everyone at that moment in time. But as stated here above, in the end it levels out over a whole season.

[JimmyClark]

Just trying to think of a fairer system. To be fair on Hamilton he did lead 57 laps of a 58 laps.

If it was the first race not the last race, it wouldn't be seen as an issue, just an chaotic end to a race that would be seen as quite entertaining.

Over the season Max led 652 laps and Lewis 297 - as I said in my post above, these things even out.

[Cyanide]

That's racing. You can do everything right on the day, and still not win through a combination of variable outside a driver's control. Safety cars, mechanical failures, weather etc etc. 

 

There's no possible way to make every race "fair", but even if there was, I don't know why you'd want to. Because it'd make the sport a hell of a lot more boring. Fairer, but more boring.

 

Racing gives and racing takes. I wonder if as many people would be as keen to rewrite the rule book if Hamilton had won, or if he had been the one to benefit from the safety car rather than Max? I doubt it.

 

This. 

[smitten]

So when there's an accident, you drive over the debris destroying your tire and the pit is closed? There will never be a rule that's fair for everyone at that moment in time. But as stated here above, in the end it levels out over a whole season.

You can have an exception for punctures, just like they used to have an exception in the refuelling era for those about to run out.

[Hellenic tifosi]

The red flag rules need changing, but not the safety car. So many dull races have only been livened up due to safety cars - it is part of the sport. Yes sometimes some drivers have bad luck being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but it evens out over time.

 

The SC needs just a few tweeks, as shown by Bottas last week.

[w1Y]

Because we there was literally no suggestion of anything remotely like this being needed until someone else other than LH benefited from it.

That's rubbish. Every single time anyone benefits from it there is one party that moans about it. This consideration that we can't talk about what can improve this sport is outdated thinking. And Lewis has benefitted from many sc, vsc pit stops in the past. Many times!

Edited by w1Y, 13 December 2021 - 08:47.

[scheivlak]

Just trying to think of a fairer system. To be fair on Hamilton he did lead 57 laps of a 58 laps.

He didn´t (remember Perez).

 

Apart from that, the SC is not there to give a fair result. It is to guarantee safety on the track when there's an incident.

[Clatter]

He didn´t (remember Perez).

Apart from that, the SC is not there to give a fair result. It is to guarantee safety on the track when there's an incident.

If it was really about safety they would stop the race. The SC was brought in to keep the race going when an incident occurs for broadcast purposes.

[PlatenGlass]

I think it would be wholly possible to use the VSC technology to bring the cars back up to speed and replace approximate gaps between them rather than having a SC restart. If they did that, the unfairness of having to deploy the SC would be greatly reduced.

This. I think Pay as You Race has suggested this before as well, and I think it's a good idea. Same as after a red flag as well.

 

People gaining an advantage with cheaper pitstops etc. is a smaller problem. Sort out the main problem first.

[boomn]

If you don't like the "unfair" feeling of drivers benefitting from cheaper pitstops under safety car or VSC then you really won't like what happens with closed pits! 

 

Indycar is a good case study as they close the pits until the field is properly bunched behind the safety car and the track is clear.  When this happens around a pit window for one of the tire strategies, you often see midfield and backmarker cars who had pitted early thrust to the front of the field and even finishing on the podium while cars who ran up front all race can't even finish back inside the top 10.  It feels like a lottery when it happens, and has taken all the fun out of some races for me as I was too busy feeling frustrated on behalf of the drivers who had been doing such a good job to build their lead.  It's my number one largest frustration with Indycar and one of the reasons I started to lose interest

[ClubmanGT]

If it was really about safety they would stop the race. The SC was brought in to keep the race going when an incident occurs for broadcast purposes.

 

If it was really about safety, they'd go sim-racing instead. 

 

And even then sitting down too long is bad for you. 

[Ali623]

As far as I can see there's nothing wrong with the current safety car/red flag procedures (if done properly). Drivers sometimes benefit and sometimes don't. Hamilton was screwed here but red flags helped him earlier in the season in Imola and Silverstone. It all usually balances out.

[Myrvold]

I think it would be wholly possible to use the VSC technology to bring the cars back up to speed and replace approximate gaps between them rather than having a SC restart. If they did that, the unfairness of having to deploy the SC would be greatly reduced.

 

That would make the whole SC/VSC last longer though.

 

. If they weren't already lapped, they would be less than a leader's lap time behind. So they'll be at full speed by the time the leader catches them. If they are a lap down, their time would be the extra time down. So if they were 1 lap and 12.74s behind, their "restart time" would be 12.74s after the leader.

 

Not what I meant.

 

Driver A is 83 seconds behind Driver B, who is 0.8 seconds behind Driver C. The lap is 86 seconds, so Driver B is 3 seconds behind Driver A on the track, both cars doing 280km/h through some corners. The race is "stopped".

 

Restart happens. While both cars have to start from a standstill, either Driver A has to start at the back of the grid, or they have to line up in one long line and drive slowly towards the start-line to take their timed start. However Driver B is supposed to start 0.8 seconds behind Driver C, and won't have time to go to the start line to start. Driver B will then have to start further back than the others, which is a disadvantage, or Driver B have to start while rolling, which would be an advantage compared to Driver C.

If they line up on grid positions, Driver B can potentially start 18 spots behind Driver A, which would be 1.5 seconds-ish behind, would each grid spot be calculated in tenths and release earlier, or not? And what will happen if there is 1 second from lapping, all the stuff above applies and Driver A comes around the last corner at Portimao at 280 km/h and there is two cars about to start from a standstill on the grid?

 

This sounds unnecessarily dangerous.

 

And if everyone are starting from the pit, released in order like a pursuit. How are they supposed to do that in terms of lining up cars, pit speed limit etc. when cars are close when the SC was thrown?

 

I see more issues that solutions there.