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Honda's first title since 1991 - looking back at their hybrid PU stint


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#1 Disgrace

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 19:32

Recall the oil as it poured out of the McLaren undertray as it was craned away. How we laughed, at least, if you were not a McLaren fan.

 

Then came the opportunity to develop away from the limelight, in the back of the Toro Rosso. Perhaps the approach they should have taken from the beginning.

 

Subsequently, more mileage with four rather than two cars. Four seasons after their nadir and breakup with McLaren, a bad joke has been transformed into a championship winner.

 

Honda just won their first F1 title in 30 years. Quite a turnaround, quite a story. Kudos.

 

How do we judge their hybrid PU stint now?



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#2 Sparky68

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 19:33

Honda wasnt ready when McLaren wanted them to be, they wanted another year from what Ive been told.



#3 Nova

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 19:37

Honda wasnt ready when McLaren wanted them to be, they wanted another year from what Ive been told.

It was a blow for Honda (me following Honda) at the time, but with the power of hindsight (a couple of hours worth :D ) it was for the better. Congratulations Sparky and team Red Bull :up:



#4 Sparky68

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 19:38

It was a blow for Honda (me following Honda) at the time, but with the power of hindsight (a couple of hours worth :D ) it was for the better. Congratulations Sparky and team Red Bull :up:

Thank you.



#5 ARTGP

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 19:39

They also figured out how F1 works when they took the PU design for 2022, performed a time warp, and raced it in the '21 season. You have to be 10 steps or more ahead of the present, to be successful in F1. Very difficult and impressive feat.


Edited by ARTGP, 12 December 2021 - 19:40.


#6 engineblock1

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 19:45

I love Honda road cars, but much less the F1 project after how they fared with McLaren. Nevertheless congratulations to the team and it's weird they leave the sport while being on the top. Someone at Honda seems to make worse calls than Mercedes strategist.



#7 Loosenut

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 19:48

Well, at least they got to be part of the successs before they quit this time. It must have been painful for all those who worked for them to see their 2009 car finally come good, right after they abandoned ship.

#8 sniper80

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 19:49

Well, finally Honda built a fine piece of jewelry this year, didn't they? :up:



#9 Mat13

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 19:58

Turned up spouting bollocks (aided by Ron Dennis), made a mess of it, finally made something useful to then give up and disappear. Good riddance…

#10 P123

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 20:01

Well done to Honda.  Quite the turnaround.  All that investment paid off, in a way.  Bailing out yet again though, but a bit more responsibly this time.  All the same, hope they are never invited back as it's a bit of a bad habit of theirs.



#11 Sparky68

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 20:03

Well done to Honda.  Quite the turnaround.  All that investment paid off, in a way.  Bailing out yet again though, but a bit more responsibly this time.  All the same, hope they are never invited back as it's a bit of a bad habit of theirs.

Over the years Renault and Mercedes have done the same. The world changes and companies goals change.



#12 OneAndOnly

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 20:04

I really wanted them to do well with McLaren. McLaren Honda with yellow helmet just screams “good old times”. They did good job this year and really turned things around. Though they should visit specialist for that premature pulling out. It has become chronic.

#13 P123

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 20:06

Over the years Renault and Mercedes have done the same. The world changes and companies goals change.

 

Indeed, Renault are quite similar.  I guess the way Honda left in the 90s, along with ditching in 2009 and now jumping just at the moment they do taste success leaves a bit of a bad taste.

 

Merc, for all the brickbats thrown at them, do at least have some longevity having been around again since '93.



#14 Ali_G

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 20:10

Indeed, Renault are quite similar. I guess the way Honda left in the 90s, along with ditching in 2009 and now jumping just at the moment they do taste success leaves a bit of a bad taste.

Merc, for all the brickbats thrown at them, do at least have some longevity having been around again since '93.

Half of those years were Ilmor engines paid for by Mercedes. A bit different but still a decent commitment.

Edited by Ali_G, 12 December 2021 - 20:10.


#15 OneAndOnly

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 20:14

Half of those years were Ilmor engines paid for by Mercedes. A bit different but still a decent commitment.

This is true. My ex gf’s step brother was some chief in Mercedes back then. We watched race together once (I think it was 99’) when Merc engine blowed up. I was mocking him, but he replied that only Mercedes thing on these engines is their sign. Everything else was by Ilmor, with Mercedes’ money ofcourse.

#16 Henri Greuter

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 20:20

Heartfelt congratulations to Honda!

 

Four years ago you were the laughing stock of the F1 engine builders, bullied and accused of ruining careers and reputations.

 

Four years later you are leaving F1, having surpassed the achievements of the other Non-Mercedes builders.

And have become the only one engine builder who prevented a clean sweep of 8 doubles in a row for Mercedes.

 

You have succeeded in what Ferrari and Renault have failed to do within those 8 years.

 

Sad to see you go without the opportunity to reap the benefit of your achievement.

But at least you are able to leave on a high,

Happy for you to have pulled this one off given the dramas of the first three years.

 

Enjoy the achievements and the glory that comes with it, as well as the fact of having the best laugh over Ferrari and Renault after all.

 

Once again, CONGRATULATIONS to you HONDA !!!!!



#17 Stephane

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 20:48

Finally,  :clap:



#18 ARTGP

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 20:54

Indeed, Renault are quite similar.  I guess the way Honda left in the 90s, along with ditching in 2009 and now jumping just at the moment they do taste success leaves a bit of a bad taste.

 

I can't imagine how it leaves a bad taste. They took a driver to a WDC, and instead of sequestering all of the IP, they leased it to RB and will build RB's engines next year.  Quite the opposite really. Honda left RB an extremely cushy landing.    BMW is the one who leaves a bad taste. Left both Williams and Sauber out on their arse in the 2000s.



#19 mclarensmps

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 20:57

As a McLaren fan, the topic:

Honda-s first title since 1991 - looking back at their hybrid PU stint
 
Started by:
DISGRACE

Sums it up for me  :p

Edited by mclarensmps, 12 December 2021 - 20:57.


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#20 Eff1

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 21:00

Given the sophistication of the hybrid PU technology, and the engine freeze / development tokens imposed during this era - this is in my opinion one of the greatest technical turnarounds of all time. Well done to Honda, sad to see them leave but happy to see Red Bull invest in the operation to keep it going (albeit rebadged).

#21 baddog

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 22:12

SO so happy for Honda to get this before they leave. They have shown an attitude that is admirable.

 

Shame they cant really change their minds!



#22 ExFlagMan

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 22:16

Pity Horner did not appear to mention Honda at all during the post race TV interview I saw.



#23 Clrnc

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 22:20

Fair play to them.

 

Honda Racing F1 on Twitter: "We did it together ❤️ たどり着いたぞ、世界の頂点へ #ThePowerOfDreams https://t.co/Uoq4QxkWRp" / Twitter

 

Great compilation 



#24 Lennat

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 23:05

How could it be considered anything but a success, given the end result? Starting off horribly and then winning the championship surely beats mostly varying levels of mediocrity (Renault), or being mostly competitive but never being able to mount a proper championship challenge and then being caught cheating (Ferrrari). To be fair, I think the Ferrari ENGINE was quite close to the Merc for most of the hybrid era, and even better at times, so I don't necessarily think Honda was better than Ferrari overall engine wise (that engine in a Red Bull might have been able to challenge Merc for several years), but actually winning the championship for real is what really counts, so...


Edited by Lennat, 12 December 2021 - 23:11.


#25 texfan

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 23:48

I have seen two drivers win the Championship with Honda on the engine cover, the first one was named Senna. Not bad company for Max.



#26 Spillage

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 23:51

Well done to them. Seems all they have to do to win a WSC is withdraw from the sport, which is a bit of a poisoned chalice!

#27 PayasYouRace

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Posted 12 December 2021 - 23:59

I have seen two drivers win the Championship with Honda on the engine cover, the first one was named Senna. Not bad company for Max.

Also, his girlfriend’s dad won a championship with a Honda engine. Not bad company indeed.



#28 P123

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 00:05

I can't imagine how it leaves a bad taste. They took a driver to a WDC, and instead of sequestering all of the IP, they leased it to RB and will build RB's engines next year.  Quite the opposite really. Honda left RB an extremely cushy landing.    BMW is the one who leaves a bad taste. Left both Williams and Sauber out on their arse in the 2000s.

 

I did grant them that they were leaving more responsibly this time in an earlier post.

 

Agreed about BMW.  I think they have done the same in Formula E.  



#29 Shambolic

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 00:52

Although I could understand Darth Dennis not wanting a repeat of 2009 - 2010, the exclusivity part of the deal was always a bad idea. It minimises the testing mileage, gives you little clue if the problems are chassis, installation, or power, and leaves you chasing your tail while everyone else runs straight away from you.



#30 teejay

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 01:11

GEEEEEPEEEEEE TWOOOOOOOOOOO AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

But, well done - they built a great motor this year.



#31 mclarensmps

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 01:41

GEEEEEPEEEEEE TWOOOOOOOOOOO AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

But, well done - they built a great motor this year.

 

:p



#32 kumo7

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 06:47

Well done for HONDA, indeed the path was not a simple linear route, it was ,... 

Never the less, it got what it aimed at, fantastic. Congratulation for all members.

 

 

Still the issue remains, the targeting of the management, Pr, Tech team, race team is not working well. 

By now it should be clear that winning a formula 1 championship is much much more than winning a single Le Mans 24. 

At this point, Honda has climbed a bigger mountain than what TOYOTA did, in a sense thatHONDA's future is brighter.

Hope the management see this... 

 

 

:up:



#33 Dhillon

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 06:53

McLaren didn't treat Honda well, Claimed they had the best chassis but Honda is letting them down. GP2 engine  :p

 

Had Mclaren and Alonso stayed with Honda they'd be atleast multi GP winners if not champions.



#34 AnR

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 06:56

Congratulations and well done Honda!



#35 Arundo

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 07:06

Congrats to Honda, so happy they won they won one title atleast this year. 



#36 lustigson

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 08:02

If you look at Honda's numbers over their 4 eras in Formula 1 — as a works team in the 1960s, with McLaren and Williams in the 1980s, their own outfit again in the 2000s, and with McLaren and Red Bull in the 2010s-2020s — only the second era was really, really successful. The first and thirds eras were somewhat disappointing, and the fourth era now ends on a high, but only just, and then they leave. Again.

 

Renault was more successful in their 4 previous stints: race winners and title runners-up as works team in the 1980s, multiple titles with Williams and Benetton in the 1990s, double championship with factory team in the 2000s, multiple titles with Red Bull. Their current, 5th era is the least successful.

 

So my point is that Honda isn't such a great F1 marque as it is often made out to be.  :wave:

 

Edit: sorry to rain on the parade.


Edited by lustigson, 13 December 2021 - 08:11.


#37 kumo7

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 10:57

If you look at Honda's numbers over their 4 eras in Formula 1 — as a works team in the 1960s, with McLaren and Williams in the 1980s, their own outfit again in the 2000s, and with McLaren and Red Bull in the 2010s-2020s — only the second era was really, really successful. The first and thirds eras were somewhat disappointing, and the fourth era now ends on a high, but only just, and then they leave. Again.

 

Renault was more successful in their 4 previous stints: race winners and title runners-up as works team in the 1980s, multiple titles with Williams and Benetton in the 1990s, double championship with factory team in the 2000s, multiple titles with Red Bull. Their current, 5th era is the least successful.

 

So my point is that Honda isn't such a great F1 marque as it is often made out to be.  :wave:

 

Edit: sorry to rain on the parade.

 

I have got to say that Honda left the sport at EXACTLY the wrongtimingthe last time around, even though they way they left the sport was smart. It made the championship winning team and it transformed to the current Merc.



#38 Henri Greuter

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 20:56

Just checked it out,

If my records are correct:

 

 

Edited and corrected

 

Honda is leaving F1 being the joined second most successful engine builder of the current TurboHybrid era.

 

In the last three years RedBull-Honda's scored 16 race victories, Toro Rosso scored Honda's 17th.

Thus, Honda narrowly bettered equalled Ferrari's tally of 17 race victories with their TurboHybrid engines in the past 8 years, all achieved in the first 6 years. since they remain winless in the past 2 years..

 

 

Embarassing as the first three years were, Honda certainly made up for that in their final years.

 

 

In case of counting errors, happy to be corrected. Did it myself once....


Edited by Henri Greuter, 13 December 2021 - 21:05.


#39 baddog

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 22:04

If you look at Honda's numbers over their 4 eras in Formula 1 — as a works team in the 1960s, with McLaren and Williams in the 1980s, their own outfit again in the 2000s, and with McLaren and Red Bull in the 2010s-2020s — only the second era was really, really successful. The first and thirds eras were somewhat disappointing, and the fourth era now ends on a high, but only just, and then they leave. Again.

 

Renault was more successful in their 4 previous stints: race winners and title runners-up as works team in the 1980s, multiple titles with Williams and Benetton in the 1990s, double championship with factory team in the 2000s, multiple titles with Red Bull. Their current, 5th era is the least successful.

 

So my point is that Honda isn't such a great F1 marque as it is often made out to be.  :wave:

 

Edit: sorry to rain on the parade.

 

Its okay, we know how much being a Renault fan hurts these days, sharing the misery is natural, if rude.



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#40 ARTGP

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 22:09

If you look at Honda's numbers over their 4 eras in Formula 1 — as a works team in the 1960s, with McLaren and Williams in the 1980s, their own outfit again in the 2000s, and with McLaren and Red Bull in the 2010s-2020s — only the second era was really, really successful. The first and thirds eras were somewhat disappointing, and the fourth era now ends on a high, but only just, and then they leave. Again.

 

It's hard to decouple the impact that chassis has. Would we really say Mercedes are not successful because of Williams?  Even BMW deserved more success than they ever got. The Williams chassis was never good enough. Those BMW V10s easily had more power on a Saturday than anybody else in the early 2000s. Shame the Williams chassis couldn't cope.


Edited by ARTGP, 13 December 2021 - 22:11.


#41 scheivlak

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 22:27

McLaren didn't treat Honda well, Claimed they had the best chassis but Honda is letting them down. GP2 engine  :p

 

Had Mclaren and Alonso stayed with Honda they'd be atleast multi GP winners if not champions.

A win here and there but champions? Not with their chassis.

 

Don't underestimate what was needed to dethrone a Hamilton/Mercedes combination,.


Edited by scheivlak, 13 December 2021 - 22:28.


#42 Stephane

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 22:37

If you look at Honda's numbers over their 4 eras in Formula 1 — as a works team in the 1960s, with McLaren and Williams in the 1980s, their own outfit again in the 2000s, and with McLaren and Red Bull in the 2010s-2020s — only the second era was really, really successful. The first and thirds eras were somewhat disappointing, and the fourth era now ends on a high, but only just, and then they leave. Again.

 

Renault was more successful in their 4 previous stints: race winners and title runners-up as works team in the 1980s, multiple titles with Williams and Benetton in the 1990s, double championship with factory team in the 2000s, multiple titles with Red Bull. Their current, 5th era is the least successful.

 

So my point is that Honda isn't such a great F1 marque as it is often made out to be.  :wave:

 

Edit: sorry to rain on the parade.

 

They were runner-up in 04, there's the high point of the third era, with the win in '06



#43 CoolBreeze

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Posted 14 December 2021 - 02:03

They did well, for sure. But they are exiting again. This kind of unpredictable situation means sometimes I do wish they never return, 



#44 mclarensmps

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Posted 14 December 2021 - 02:25

A win here and there but champions? Not with their chassis.

 

Don't underestimate what was needed to dethrone a Hamilton/Mercedes combination,.

 

Oh we all know! Everyone's talking about it right now



#45 Afterburner

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Posted 14 December 2021 - 16:46

After all the pain and misery of their initial return, and all of the late nights and sleepless hours everyone at Honda had to put in to crawl back from that, I think the right to say that they dethroned Mercedes and Lewis Hamilton is well-deserved. The stat Croft read during FP3 perhaps sums it up the best for me: they went from an engine that barely made it 7 laps to one that Max ran in FPs all year long up to the very last race, accruing 30% more mileage than even Honda's engineers thought possible. Whether or not you agree with them leaving again, at least consider how exhausting their stint must have been this time to go from where they started to where they finished in six years, all the while leaving the likes of Renault and Ferrari behind. Despite all of this, in a fashion typical of their company ethos, the engineers remained humble about their progress and were reticent to proclaim their engine the best, even when it really looked like they had the best power unit near the start of the year.

I really didn't care who won either championship going into the last race as long as Honda got to lay claim to one of them, and I am overjoyed that they did. It's always difficult to make a case for who "deserved" what in racing, but I think you'd have to be pretty cold to begrudge everyone who worked on the Honda F1 program their success this year. Well done, Honda! Even if in a naming-rights deal only, here's hoping we'll see you around for a few years yet.

#46 Lerdes

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Posted 14 December 2021 - 16:50

Desaster in the years of 2015 til 2017. Tricked two world champs, one of them retired. They threw away their 10 year commitment and leave the sport after the WDC. It's one way to look at it...

#47 AlexPrime

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Posted 16 December 2021 - 11:46

The thing pleasing me most about the outcome is that Honda won a championship again. Serving people right for doubting the Japanese (that includes me :p ). I hope that they come back and win again. Without a Japanese car, a world championship is somehow not complete.



#48 Paa

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Posted 16 December 2021 - 12:05

Honda wasnt ready when McLaren wanted them to be, they wanted another year from what Ive been told.

 

It was also Ron who did not allow Honda to have other partners. Which would have been crucial to get more test km and experience.



#49 Izzyeviel

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Posted 16 December 2021 - 12:09

It was also Ron who did not allow Honda to have other partners. Which would have been crucial to get more test km and experience.

Thank god he did. How to see how another team would've survived those Honda years



#50 AlexPrime

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Posted 16 December 2021 - 12:10

Well done for HONDA, indeed the path was not a simple linear route, it was ,... 

Never the less, it got what it aimed at, fantastic. Congratulation for all members.

 

 

Still the issue remains, the targeting of the management, Pr, Tech team, race team is not working well. 

By now it should be clear that winning a formula 1 championship is much much more than winning a single Le Mans 24. 

At this point, Honda has climbed a bigger mountain than what TOYOTA did, in a sense thatHONDA's future is brighter.

Hope the management see this... 

 

 

:up:

Toyota also won the WRC though, they are too very impressive.