167 replies to this topic

[flyboym3]

I really question how Renault in particular thought they had the best engine considering just how poor they were in 2014.

Because they all thought they had started early and also had something innovative. So they thought they could lock in that advantage.
In the end they cried to get the token limit removed because they realised they got outperformed badly.

Reality is Merc just did a better job when everyone had a clean sheet of paper. The split turbo idea was pioneering.

No different to Newey tbh.

Excellence is normally celebrated in sport.

Edited by flyboym3, 15 December 2021 - 01:12.

[Alfisti]

Its been abysmal since 2014, and the 2017 regs made it even worse.

I dont care what anyone says, the lack of a proper engine note was criminal, sucked the essence of speed out of the spectacle.

The current engines were always way too complicated, made it a huge barrier to entry.

The stupidity of it all is that it really was not needed, much like the entire climate change debate, there's too much focus on small things that don't matter and not enough on the bigger issue. The idea f1 needed a greener engine solution whilst carting a half dozen jets worth of people and hardware, zigzagging across the planet, is a sick fuxking joke.

[ARTGP]

These regulations were a smashing success that attracted several new manufacturers to the sport.....oh wait.


Honda is leaving. Two others didn't want to join unless MGU-H was gutted.

Edited by ARTGP, 15 December 2021 - 06:40.

[baddog]

PayasYouRace, on 14 Dec 2021 - 22:17, said:

It’s still surprising to read comments that seem to think hybrids were introduced to F1 in 2014. Hybrids came in in 2009.

yeah but, they only became a problem for many when Lewis Hamilton and Merc started winning.........before that it was all fine 

 

This is all very disingenuous nonsense. Kers was an addon, like DRS. It was only used by some teams sometimes, was not used at all in 2010, and was a fairly minor factor after that. It most assuredly didn't dominate the engine landscape.

 

Oh and the first driver to win a race with Kers? Go on have a guess.

 

Only in 2014 did the new hybrid engine formula era begin, and Merc utterly dominated it. Saying otherwise is balls.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

I personally think they were a failure. Not because of the dominance of Mercedes, but because they took away one of the best parts of F1 racing. The noise.

I can’t believe we haven’t got pass that yet… how many years later?

[Ragingjamaican]

That was 4 years. The Mercedes sweep was 7 years. Almost double.

 

Exactly, not really comparable.

 

2009-2013 had a lot more competition, and several teams going for wins and podiums, minus 2011 & second half of 2013, even in those dominated seasons at least 3 teams won a race along with 5 different drivers. Racing was also better, with the gap from the top to the bottom midfield much closer.

 

2014-2021 has been about one team considerably in front, unleashing their advantage that they've held back when one team gets close. Even when there was competition in a couple of season, it was  2 teams considerably ahead of the rest of the field. Apart from 2019 where you would on the odd occasion have Ferrari and Red Bull competitive occasionally challenge Mercedes.

 

No new teams attracted, no new manufacturers attracted minus one that has just left.

 

What may have saved it was the COVID situation. Last season, even though dominated by Mercedes, led to a lot of unpredictability. This season has also been similar in that regard with surprise results but with actual competition upfront.

[PayasYouRace]

This is all very disingenuous nonsense. Kers was an addon, like DRS. It was only used by some teams sometimes, was not used at all in 2010, and was a fairly minor factor after that. It most assuredly didn't dominate the engine landscape.

Oh and the first driver to win a race with Kers? Go on have a guess.

Only in 2014 did the new hybrid engine formula era begin, and Merc utterly dominated it. Saying otherwise is balls.

Sorry. KERS as used in 2009-2013 was definitely hybrid technology. It used regenerative braking to store electrical energy and then provide a power boost. It was a good introduction to hybrid technology for F1 and a milder form of the ERS-K aspect of the current formula.

The 2014 turbo-hybrids are of course a new formula and the subject of this discussion. But it doesn’t change the fact that the previous formula was a hybrid one. So when people refer to hybrids and mean this formula, they’re incorrect.

Yes it’s a bit of pedantry, but I think it’s important to remind people that hybrid elements can be incorporated in other ways and not just in the expensive manner they were for the 2014 formula.

Yes. Lewis Hamilton and McLaren-Mercedes won the first race with a hybrid car, closely followed by Kimi Raikkonen and Ferrari for the second. Now that is largely irrelevant.

[Scotracer]

Yes, KERS was definitely a hybrd system.

[whitewaterMkII]

https://www.cosworth...e_studies/t-50/

Anybody heard this one in the wild yet?

Cosworth T-50 is a beast. This is probably way too fast for F1 use, at 665 HP but something along these lines, running on Ethanol is what would float my boat.

[Atreiu]

Technical success, sporting failure.

[YamahaV10]

Unless you are a Mercedes shareholder, or a Ham Fan, a pointless failure. Ecclestone was right. 

When did Ecclestone say this ? He was there when it was all brought in. Why did he allow it. I agree but I see it as hypocritical on his part

Edited by YamahaV10, 16 December 2021 - 00:44.

[Izzyeviel]

Best era since the mid 90's for actual racing. But I don't think they achieved what they wanted to achieve with these regs, the sport became a joke and thats before Masi killed the sport. Roll on 2022.

Edited by Izzyeviel, 16 December 2021 - 00:53.

[YamahaV10]

Firstly, no-one is disputing that they all signed up for it.  Don't get the relevance.

 

Secondly, the fact that one team made a success of it to the extent that they dominated for most of the period and the only time anyone got close was due to running trickery in the PU that ended up being banned, does indeed make it a failure.  If there's no competition, it's not much of a sport.  Don't understand the need to defend Mercedes since the complaint is against the era, not one team.

The concerning part is, it could be more of the same under these new regulations because the power units are staying the same. Even if another team makes a car that corners better, it will lose it all on the straights against the Mercedes. That was the story of 2021. Red Bull made a car that could corner better but by Brazil, it was back to the same old story. The Merc was completely dominant with its power. Even on the very last lap, the drag race on the last straight, Hamilton pulled right up beside Verstappen.

 

Im surprised of the lack of reaction from all the other teams regarding the power of the Mercedes engine Brazil onward, to the very last lap. I guess they think they will all make it up in the corners ? Good luck with that

Edited by YamahaV10, 16 December 2021 - 01:41.

[Gravelngrass]

Failure. Aside from this season and maybe 2014 or 2016 (don't exactly remember the season when HAm and Ros pushed each other off track constantly), it has been, by far, the most monopolizing era in F1 (someone made a graph that showed it clearly: even the Ferrari and Red Bull domination eras pale in comparison). But a dominant team would not have been that bad if there had been close racing elsewhere on track, but the combination of the difficulty of following cars coupled with one of the worst inventions in the history of F1, DRS, made it dire for fans of true racing. Keep on adding: the lack of excitement and excess of weight, with everything else that this causes, of these engines is contrary to the very concept of what auto racing should be (coupled with the misguided concept of road relevancy). And let's not talk about the tyres, stupid rules like parc ferme, mandatory use of compounds, etc., etc... 

Terrible.

[ClubmanGT]

 

"Hello police? Yes, it's this post here. Thank you."

[ClubmanGT]

No different to Newey tbh.

Excellence is normally celebrated in sport.

 

This is a very charitable reading of the history of F1. Look at what got changed to try and bring the rest of the field back towards Ferrari. Tyres, points, engines, you name it, they changed it. And in the end, I'm pretty sure the thing that did the job was that Renault managed to make a car worthy of their barnstorming traction control system. The Alonso starts from 2004 onwards were like something out of a video game with cheat modes on.

 

The reality is that excellence has been 'celebrated' but behind the scenes, enormous work went into to disrupt it. Compared to the early-mid 2000s, the changes in regulations feel like they've just suddenly ground to a halt in comparison.  

[PayasYouRace]

This is a very charitable reading of the history of F1. Look at what got changed to try and bring the rest of the field back towards Ferrari. Tyres, points, engines, you name it, they changed it. And in the end, I'm pretty sure the thing that did the job was that Renault managed to make a car worthy of their barnstorming traction control system. The Alonso starts from 2004 onwards were like something out of a video game with cheat modes on.

 

The reality is that excellence has been 'celebrated' but behind the scenes, enormous work went into to disrupt it. Compared to the early-mid 2000s, the changes in regulations feel like they've just suddenly ground to a halt in comparison.  

 

There have been two major chassis regulation changes in this engine formula, for a start. First in 2017 and now for 2022. No to mention various smaller changes like the wing dimensions in 2019 or the floor dimensions this season.

[Rediscoveryx]

Best era since the mid 90's for actual racing. But I don't think they achieved what they wanted to achieve with these regs, the sport became a joke and thats before Masi killed the sport. Roll on 2022.

 

Yes, the racing aspect has been overlooked. Partly due to the prolonged Mercedes dominance. Though I'm not sure that has had so much to do with the technical regulations as such. No refuelling, DRS-zones (that if anything were too powerful in general) and at times the unpredictability of the Pirelli tyres were probably more important.