21 replies to this topic

[Misk]

Yesterday Verstappen became only the 10th driver to win the WDC when his team did not win the WCC in the 64 seasons since the Constructors Championship was introduced.

 

Mike Hawthorn (1958)

Jackie Stewart (1973)

James Hunt (1976)

Nelson Piquet (1981, 1983)

Keke Rosberg (1982)

Alan Prost (1986)

Michael Schumacher (1994)

Mika Häkkinen (1999)

Lewis Hamilton (2008)

Max Verstappen (2021)

 

What do people think. Does it make the achivment more special if they are able to do it in a car that wasn't good enough to win the constructors, or can it simply be a reflection of the fact they had a poor number 2, ect?

Edited by Misk, 13 December 2021 - 13:10.

[HP]

It's IMO mostly circumstancial. There are always different factors behind it.

 

Reliability was worse, also because of things like manual gear shifting, etc.

Drivers being involved in fatal accidents.

Teams using their 2nd seat as a revolving door for whoever brings the most cash.

#1 driver from the WCC winning team out of the equation (1999)

Supplier chains (mainly tires and engines) being controlled by the teams rather than by FIA

Teams being able to innovate with lesser restrictions than today, but often just time and resources for one car.

Ferrari juggernaut running out of steam, after key people left the team.

Also Ferrari, and Mercedes after years of domination having to readjust and rediscover close fighting.

And of course controversial decisions. 2021 and 1999 both WDC and WCC would have gone both to the same team. Of course MSC being out for a few races mentioned above was one side, but the barge board controversy helped Ferrari to win the WCC on the other hand. And about 2021, well it seemed ages since I saw this forum being too busy because of what transpired.

[Viryfan]

Yesterday Verstappen became only the 9th driver to win the WDC when his team did not win the WCC in the 64 seasons since the Constructors Championship was introduced.

 

Mike Hawthorn (1958)

Jackie Stewart (1973)

James Hunt (1976)

Nelson Piquet (1981, 1983)

Alan Prost (1986)

Michael Schumacher (1994)

Mika Häkkinen (1999)

Lewis Hamilton (2008)

Max Verstappen (2021)

 

What do people think. Does it make the achivment more special if they are able to do it in a car that wasn't good enough to win the constructors, or can it simply be a reflection of the fact they had a poor number 2, ect?

 

you forgot Rosberg in 1982

[Anderis]

What do people think. Does it make the achivment more special if they are able to do it in a car that wasn't good enough to win the constructors, or can it simply be a reflection of the fact they had a poor number 2, ect?

It can sometimes be a reflection of being in a team focused on 1 driver that was against a team that treated their 2 drivers more equally. It can be anything. So it does not make the achievement more special in my opinion.

[Misk]

you forgot Rosberg in 1982

Damn thanks!

[Rediscoveryx]

Yesterday Verstappen became only the 9th driver to win the WDC when his team did not win the WCC in the 64 seasons since the Constructors Championship was introduced.

 

Mike Hawthorn (1958)

Jackie Stewart (1973)

James Hunt (1976)

Nelson Piquet (1981, 1983)

Alan Prost (1986)

Michael Schumacher (1994)

Mika Häkkinen (1999)

Lewis Hamilton (2008)

Max Verstappen (2021)

 

What do people think. Does it make the achivment more special if they are able to do it in a car that wasn't good enough to win the constructors, or can it simply be a reflection of the fact they had a poor number 2, ect?

 

Well, it's not something that makes the feat easier, let's put it that way. In theory it means that you've won the title in an inferior car (although in reality it's not quite that simple).

 

Interesting that Piquet managed it twice. He's otherwise not really thought of as being a part of that very top echelon of drivers. 

[lustigson]

An interesting point in this discussion is also that, up until a certain year (1980-1980?), only the highest-finishing driver would add to the constructor's tally.

[Gareth]

Yesterday Verstappen became only the 10th driver to win the WDC when his team did not win the WCC in the 64 seasons since the Constructors Championship was introduced.

 

Mike Hawthorn (1958)

Jackie Stewart (1973)

James Hunt (1976)

Nelson Piquet (1981, 1983)

Keke Rosberg (1982)

Alan Prost (1986)

Michael Schumacher (1994)

Mika Häkkinen (1999)

Lewis Hamilton (2008)

Max Verstappen (2021)

 

What do people think. Does it make the achivment more special if they are able to do it in a car that wasn't good enough to win the constructors, or can it simply be a reflection of the fact they had a poor number 2, ect?

Kimi sort of holds this feat as well, for 2007.

[Misk]

 

 

Interesting that Piquet managed it twice. He's otherwise not really thought of as being a part of that very top echelon of drivers. 

I'm too young to have watched Piquet drive at his peak but I feel like he was more highly regarded during that period than he is now (perhaps due to the Senna factor). I remember watching the 1982 season on Youtube back when many of those races where still online, and Murray Walker on a number of occasions descibed him as the most all-round dirver on the grid, much as people thought of Alonso in his Ferrari years.

[Misk]

Kimi sort of holds this feat as well, for 2007.

Was tempted to include him but decided to go with what the record books say. But I agree he could easily be counted here too.

[Rediscoveryx]

I'm too young to have watched Piquet drive at his peak but I feel like he was more highly regarded during that period than he is now (perhaps due to the Senna factor). I remember watching the 1982 season on Youtube back when many of those races where still online, and Murray Walker on a number of occasions descibed him as the most all-round dirver on the grid, much as people thought of Alonso in his Ferrari years.

 

Yes, that's true. Had he retired after 1987 he'd probably be regarded much higher today. 

[Collombin]

I'm too young to have watched Piquet drive at his peak but I feel like he was more highly regarded during that period than he is now (perhaps due to the Senna factor). I remember watching the 1982 season on Youtube back when many of those races where still online, and Murray Walker on a number of occasions descibed him as the most all-round dirver on the grid, much as people thought of Alonso in his Ferrari years.

He was many people's choice as top driver on the grid in the 83-85 timeframe. It was the Mansell factor rather than the Senna factor that hurt him - nobody expected Mansell to get anywhere near him at Williams. Of course in 1981 he had Rebaque as teammate, though Patrese was a good number 2 in 1983.

Edited by Collombin, 13 December 2021 - 13:20.

[Frood]

Interesting that Piquet managed it twice. He's otherwise not really thought of as being a part of that very top echelon of drivers.

1981 is unsurprising, as his team-mate that year was Hector Rebaque, who was useless. Patrese was his team-mate in 1983 who was much more competent - yet Brabham actually finished 3rd that year behind Ferrari and Renault.

[Ali_G]

Yes, that's true. Had he retired after 1987 he'd probably be regarded much higher today.

It doesn’t help that he wasn’t the most liked of drivers in either the paddock or the media. The constant line of disparaging comments about Mansell and his family we’re disgraceful.

Edited by Ali_G, 13 December 2021 - 13:22.

[Fastcake]

Kimi sort of holds this feat as well, for 2007.

I was about to mention that! Had McLaren not been excluded in dubious circumstances and not had their points removed in Hungary in a Mosley special decision, they would have indeed comfortably won the constructors championship.

[garoidb]

He was many people's choice as top driver on the grid in the 83-85 timeframe. It was the Mansell factor rather than the Senna factor that hurt him - nobody expected Mansell to get anywhere near him at Williams. Of course in 1981 he had Rebaque as teammate, though Patrese was a good number 2 in 1983.

 

Mansell had served notice in the last races of 1985 when Keke Rosberg was his team-mate. I don't see how people wouldn't have expected him to be a race winner in 1986. He really wasn't a number two anymore but the arrangements for 1986 were already in place. Patrese was also well regarded at that time and later in his career. Nelson was good in 1986 but 1987 was different. Those years tend to be lumped together in people's minds.

 

To answer the point, I think Nelson wasn't as hungry as Mansell when he joined Williams. He was 34 with a two year contract for big money and established. He wanted to win the clever way and assumed that's what Williams wanted too. Mansell wasn't much younger but he didn't have any of the achievements bagged yet. Anyway, Nelson got the championship for Williams Honda.

[PayasYouRace]

What do people think. Does it make the achivment more special if they are able to do it in a car that wasn't good enough to win the constructors, or can it simply be a reflection of the fact they had a poor number 2, ect?

I think that in a close season like this year, you can’t say “car that wasn’t good enough to win the constructors”.

The constructors’ championship comes down to the drivers’ teammates more than anything, and in many cases that is the deciding factor. There will be many seasons where the points gap between the 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) was larger than that of the title contenders.

[Collombin]

I don't see how people wouldn't have expected him to be a race winner in 1986. He really wasn't a number two anymore but the arrangements for 1986 were already in place. Patrese was also well regarded at that time and later in his career. Nelson was good in 1986 but 1987 was different. Those years tend to be lumped together in people's minds.

Nelson was not nearly as good as expected in 1986, I still have articles expressing their disappointment in his performances - and he was my favourite driver so I very much shared that disappointment! I did think Mansell would win the odd race - but only if Nelson had a DNF!

Of course in retrospect I think Mansell was significantly underrated at that time.

Edited by Collombin, 13 December 2021 - 13:42.

[garoidb]

Nelson was not nearly as good as expected in 1986, I still have articles expressing their disappointment in his performances - and he was my favourite driver so I very much shared that disappointment! I did think Mansell would win the odd race - but only if Nelson had a DNF!

Of course in retrospect I think Mansell was significantly underrated at that time.

 

It was all relative to Mansell though, and based on an assumption about him. As you say, he was under-rated. It's not as if he only went well against Piquet but then reverted to his Lotus form for the rest of his career. He clearly unlocked something in late 1985. Put it like this, if it had been Keke Rosberg up against Piquet in the Williams in 1986 and he had gotten Mansell's results, how would it look? I think Nigel was possibly better than Keke by the end of 1985. 

[Collombin]

Yes, fair comment all round.

[Singularity]

Was tempted to include him but decided to go with what the record books say. But I agree he could easily be counted here too.

I think that you can include him because Ferrari did not win the VCC, it was given to them after the it had been left abandoned.

[Cornholio]

I don't think there's one size fits all answer for all of these examples.

 

As already mentioned in the early decades of the WCC, only the top scoring car counted, so those earlier examples are probably at least partially down to, for instance, Vanwall in 1958 and Lotus in 1973 having a "number two" driver who would have been team leader at almost any other team, and chipping in with a good share of WCC points in a system where finishing second in a team 1-2 scored the team nothing, and having a poor number two cost a team less, for instance Fittipaldi in 1972 doesn't make the list despite his teammate famously scoring zero points.

 

By the 1980s both cars scored so a poor number two could drag a WDC-winning team down, Rebaque being the most obvious example of that. To an extent in 1994 too between a raw Verstappen, an injured Lehto and a couple of Herbert DNFs at the end of the season thrown in, although that was also a case of Schumacher winning in the second best car over the course of a season (I'm not going into all the option 13, DQ, suspension arguments..)

 

1982 and 1999 injuries (or worse) come into play, in 1982 Ferrari would surely have done the double had at least one of Villeneuve or Pironi completed the season. 1999 had Schumacher's broken leg. Was tempted to add 1976 to this category too, although actually looking it up, Lauda was never actually replaced, they either ran 0 or 1 car during his absence, and his "replacement" Reutemann only did one race - in a third car where Lauda made his comeback. Probably more a case of Regazzoni > Mass, with this again being under the best car only scores points system.

 

1986 is probably the clearest case of the list of a top driver outperforming his machinery over the season.

 

2008 is kind of all of the above, a top driver in not clearly the best car, an underperforming teammate, and two top drivers at or close to their career peaks racking up the points for Ferrari.

 

And 1983 is just...weird. The Brabham was quick and I'd have probably ranked Patrese as the best of the number twos in the top three teams that year, quickly glancing over the '83 results he had a LOT of retirements that year, I remember Imola was self-inflicted, not sure off the top of my head how many were mechanical, but that may have cost Brabham that year.