73 replies to this topic

[IrvTheSwerve]

As we know, it is always said that teams are more focused on the constructor's championship rather than the driver's championship. I have always kind of refuted this, despite the WCC setting prize money and stuff like that.

 

Obviously it was a very dramatic ending to yesterday's race but you would never know that Mercedes were world champions. No one seemed to care about it.

 

Honestly, I think that Mercedes would swap their WCC for a Lewis WDC, even taking in to account the financial hit that they would take.

 

What do people think?

[PlatenGlass]

I thought it was just Williams being obtuse rather than teams in general.

[TennisUK]

It's probably not as important to big teams as it is to small teams, for whom the money constitutes a bigger part of their commercial income.

[timmy bolt]

WCC standing is more important for every team not battling for the actual win as they get cash from a higher position.

WDC is more important when you actually have a chance of winning it.

Edited by timmy bolt, 13 December 2021 - 14:22.

[Singularity]

If you can win the WDC, that is probably most important for all of them nowadays. If you cannot, a 4th instead of 5th in the VCC is more important than 2nd instead of 3rd in the WDC. WCC is money for each position, WDC is only money for #1.

(There's no suitable poll option, so I did not vote)

Edited by Singularity, 13 December 2021 - 14:23.

[Gareth]

They're in F1 for marketing. The $ return from marketing from winning the WDC is greater than that for the prize money in the WCC.

[Risil]

1. Of course they care about the WDC more.

2. No, Mercedes would want both

[statman]

seeing the video of Toto celebrating at that party last night, I think it is important to them.

[tifosiMac]

Of course teams care more about the constructors championship, it is where the prize money comes from. The drivers championship is a marketing tool which is valuable, but not so much.

 

Not sure why the poll here right now suggests Mercedes woud swap their CC for a WDC?? Unless there is a lack of understanding as to where the sports money is distributed to the teams from..

[Myrvold]

Marketing is bigger from WDC. However if the company/individual financing the team wants to spend as little money as possible, WCC is important. I have no doubt that the WCC is way more important for Mercedes than Red Bull.

[SophieB]

I think they care more about the WDC at their level, I suspect it varies from team to team. Interesting question!

[rockdude101]

I suspect there are some within team specifically in departments such as design, aero, engine etc that care more about being number 1 in their field than the performance of an individual driver but when it's our guy versus competitor driver they'll back the teams driver. I suspect the engineers that travel with the team and driver would obviously want their guy to win the WDC as it's a pretty much certainty that the winning driver will be in the top car. I also suspect there's also another championship bonus too    

 

The '16 championship was probably just as entertaining internally as the battles and contact we saw on the track much to Toto's frustration 

 

That being said, I don't think Mercedes would swap and I strongly doubt that the FIA would even propose it. 

Edited by rockdude101, 13 December 2021 - 14:39.

[Risil]

Good point, I doubt the teams would particularly care whether one of their drivers comes 4th or 5th overall.

But I bet finishing 8th instead of 9th in the WCC takes on life or death importance. Look at how Sauber's owners were reportedly on the brink of pulling out of the team over Masi's incompetence (it's a pattern!) at Spa.

[cpbell]

It's probably not as important to big teams as it is to small teams, for whom the money constitutes a bigger part of their commercial income.

Nail, head.  Obviously, Mercedes can advertise on the basis that they've won the WCC again, but I think only the board really cares - all the racing people, Wolff included, know that what people remember is who won the WDC.  I, for example, learned the then contemporary list of WDCs around 28 years ago, but I've never memorised all the WCC winners.

[cpbell]

Of course teams care more about the constructors championship, it is where the prize money comes from. The drivers championship is a marketing tool which is valuable, but not so much.

 

Not sure why the poll here right now suggests Mercedes woud swap their CC for a WDC?? Unless there is a lack of understanding as to where the sports money is distributed to the teams from..

Did you not see Wolff's reaction to Hamilton losing the WDC?

[IrvTheSwerve]

Can I just be clear that I'm not suggesting in the poll that it would be offered to Mercedes to swap for the WDC, of course that would never happen. I'm fully aware of the financial implications of the WCC standings - although arguably you could make that up with marketing a WDC...

 

I'm just playing devil's advocate, if Mercedes were theoretically offered that swap, would they take it?

[IrvTheSwerve]

Did you not see Wolff's reaction to Hamilton losing the WDC?

 

Mercedes team members looked like someone had died post-race. If the WCC is the most important thing to them and they achieved the world championship, surely they would be happier?

[macjim]

Points make prizes for the teams, hence WCC counts for them.

 

However, only we Anoraks know what the WCC is, the causal watcher only knows WDC - most would struggle to name the WCC

 

The teams obviously care about the WDC, it's where the prestige comes from, why else would Mercedes & Red Bull be willing to sacrifice their own WCC points to get the FL off Max or Lewis?

[RekF1]

Mercedes team members looked like someone had died post-race. If the WCC is the most important thing to them and they achieved the world championship, surely they would be happier?

https://youtu.be/C4tjgHvYEDQ

Think again. They've already moved on.

[IrvTheSwerve]

https://youtu.be/C4tjgHvYEDQ

Think again. They've already moved on.

 

I suspect that was after a massive amount of Champagne. 

 

But yes, they should be celebrating like that at a WCC. I just never get the vibe that teams care about it that much.

[Piif]

They don't care about it more, they never have.

[ARTGP]

However if the company/individual financing the team wants to spend as little money as possible, WCC is important. I have no doubt that the WCC is way more important for Mercedes than Red Bull.

 

From 2013-2019, Daimler had the Mercedes F1 team drafting from an unlimited spending account. Merc F1 team was literally allowed to set money on fire in order to make electricity for the windtunnel (hyperbole).  WCCs for Mercedes are tokens/validation of achievement for the engineers, not a financial necessity for Mercedes imo.  RB isn't poor, but they were the "poorer" team.

Edited by ARTGP, 13 December 2021 - 15:59.

[Frank Tuesday]

I'm guessing no one answering this poll is actually on a team, so why would anyone think that our speculation would have any chance of representing reality. 

[cpbell]

https://youtu.be/C4tjgHvYEDQ

Think again. They've already moved on.

Maybe their immediate reaction was just for show?  Maybe they're not as interested in who wins the WDC?  I don't know.

[Anderis]

I've found the title thread a bit weird, I had always thought it was a common perception that the teams pefer WDC over WCC as it's far more marketable, that's why they would often sacrifice number 2 drivers so that the number 1's can score more points.

 

Of course, in WDC, only the 1st place counts, WCC position is far more important to everyone who's not in direct WDC fight.

[tifosiMac]

Did you not see Wolff's reaction to Hamilton losing the WDC?

I did yes, what is the relevance to my comment? I have seen other peoples reactions to Lewis having the title taken too, but they don't get any money from the sport regardless of the result.

 

Toto was celelbrating the constructors championship last night with the team all wearing 8th time championship winners t-shirts at an end of season party despite him being disappointed by the driver result.

[IrvTheSwerve]

I'm guessing no one answering this poll is actually on a team, so why would anyone think that our speculation would have any chance of representing reality.

We may as well all stop posting if we think along those lines. It’s an interesting question that is commonly asked.

[cpbell]

I did yes, what is the relevance to my comment? I have seen other peoples reactions to Lewis having the title taken too, but they don't get any money from the sport regardless of the result.

 

Toto was celelbrating the constructors championship last night with the team all wearing 8th time championship winners t-shirts at an end of season party despite him being disappointed by the driver result.

I've now seen that.  Maybe the anger at losing the WDC wasn't genuine?

[RekF1]

Maybe their immediate reaction was just for show?  Maybe they're not as interested in who wins the WDC?  I don't know.

I don't know either, but I respect him for showing empathy towards Bottas. He seems like a good boss who knows how/when to switch off.

[Frank Tuesday]

We may as well all stop posting if we think along those lines. It’s an interesting question that is commonly asked.

It may be an interesting question (I personally don't think it is), but no one here actually knows the answer.  I don't care if people want to discuss it, but what value does a poll serve?  The people responding to the poll have absolutely no idea what the correct answer is.  It also assumes that teams are a monolith with every team having the same answer, and that everyone within the team shares the same opinion.  If you ask everyone in the paddock, you'll get different answers.

[w00dy]

Smaller/Midsize teams definitely. Merc-RBR-Ferrari wouldnt give a single f about the constructors if they had the marketing prowess of the drivers. They don't need the prizemoney

[pitlanepalpatine]

They care about the drivers more but Corporate would smack them if they tried horse trading the revenue from the WCC for it.

[IrvTheSwerve]

McLaren would swap their WCC (which looks to be in the bag) for a Norris WDC in an instant. What do you reckon?

[Raest]

1) Financially perhaps. But marketing-wise I am not so certain. I think the majority of people tend to remember the driver who won the WDC and the team who won it with but not whether that tean won the WCC at the same time. The focus is always on the driver. Kimi winning the WDC in 2007 is a lot more vivid in my memory than Ferrari winning it in 2008. Everybody remebers Max beating Lewis in 2021, how many remember that Mercedes actually won the WCC? So not sure what to vote. 

 

2) Yes.

[Nathan]

Depends on the team.  For Ferrari it's more about Ferrari to win the WCC. Similar with Williams, it seemed. May also be so for Mercedes & Red Bull who are fully funded with a WDC on the roster or not. The rest I reckon love the added revenue potential of the WDC - provided he is under contract for a couple more years..

[pup]

As mentioned by someone earlier, I think the teams farther down the grid are more interested in the money that comes with a higher WCC rank.  

 

Others are correct imo that WCCs are mostly forgotten.  Look at McLaren after all - they haven't won a WCC title in the entire 25 years that I've been watching the sport*.  Yet except for the dark years, they've always had the reputation of a championship team and I think that's largely due to the handful of WDCs they've won in that time.  Frankly, I think the biggest benefit that a WCC title might bring to McLaren is a better located pit box.  

 

 

* Well, 2007, but who's counting?  Certainly not the FIA.  

Edited by pup, 06 September 2024 - 16:57.

[r4mses]

Handful? If you're T-Rex. I'm counting twi in the last 25 Years -- 1999 and 2008

[Clatter]

McLaren would swap their WCC (which looks to be in the bag) for a Norris WDC in an instant. What do you reckon?

And yet they are throwing away the oppurtunity to take both. The WDC is harder, and WCC isn't a given.

Edited by Clatter, 06 September 2024 - 17:11.

[pup]

Handful? If you're T-Rex. I'm counting twi in the last 25 Years -- 1999 and 2008

Proves my point, it's all an illusion.  

 

Always the bridesmaid, never the bride.

Edited by pup, 06 September 2024 - 17:11.

[Deeq]

It seems I am a minority..But imnho winning WCC is far more valuable than winning WDC, if you win the first you are the best Team i.e. the raison de atre of racing, get more money better pit position etc.
WDC is an individual trophy ffs, not a team trophy.

Edited by Deeq, 06 September 2024 - 17:15.

[Deeq]

Handful? If you're T-Rex. I'm counting twi in the last 25 Years -- 1999 and 2008

Ferrari won WCC 2008 & 1999 😁

[PlatenGlass]

People don't even remember who won the WCC other than working it out from what happened in the WDC. So when it's close it's not always certain. Without checking, who won the WCC in 2006 and 2009?

[Myrvold]

Without checking, who won the WCC in 2006 and 2009?

Ferrari and Brawn?

[Anderis]

Without checking, who won the WCC in 2006 and 2009?

Man, who doesn't remember that Brawn won the WCC?

[Joseki]

People don't even remember who won the WCC other than working it out from what happened in the WDC. So when it's close it's not always certain. Without checking, who won the WCC in 2006 and 2009?

 

Renault at the last race thanks to MSC DNF in Suzuka and his tyre cut at Interlagos

Brawn GP as Red Bull throw away race after race similarly to McLaren this year

 

But I know the average person is far more interested in the driver championship.

Edited by Joseki, 06 September 2024 - 18:27.

[RekF1]

If this is aimed towards the fantastic dilemma at McLaren, I think it would be a great achievement to beat a works team to the championship. It's different to RB beating Renault imo.

[TecnoRacing]

Depends on the team.  For Ferrari it's more about Ferrari to win the WCC.

Nah, it was mission accomplished only in 2000 when Ferrari won the WDC for the first time in 21 years. Winning the constructors the year before might have brought great satisfaction, but it was really just another year of waiting and not the real prize. The teams are not oblivious to the fact that WCC generates only a fraction of the prestige and press.

[AlexPrime]

Depends on the team IMO. Williams and probably McLaren care more about the WCC, Ferrari for WDC, Red Bull and Merc probably WDC as well.

[PlatenGlass]

Ferrari and Brawn?

 

50%!

[cjm321190]

I care as a Williams fan as i do not want Mclaren to equal our 9 WCC.

Williams last WCC 1997. Mclaren 1998.