78 replies to this topic

[aportinga]

Did not feel like burying this in the other threads because it is significant - and good (IMO) is=f true.

 

https://www.independ...i-b1975634.html

Edited by aportinga, 14 December 2021 - 21:52.

[cpbell]

Good move, IMO.

[flyboym3]

Won't make enough difference. Wheatley or Horner, same thing.

[as65p]

It's BS to apply it only to two teams or specific persons. I'm saying all the time communication should be one-way, RC > teams, during official timed sessions, i.e. qualifying and race.

[bibliophagos]

It's BS to apply it only to two teams or specific persons. I'm saying all the time communication should be one-way, RC > teams, during official timed sessions, i.e. qualifying and race.

Ye, that's the idea. Singling out Toto and Horner makes for a nice click-baity headline though.

[RacingGreen]

The other way of dealing with team bosses pressurising the race director is to appoint a race director who can handle the pressure and still make the correct calls.

[Brod]

Well...don't care because the RD should be able to handle stupid requests. But....feels like admitting that they ****ed up. 

[as65p]

Ye, that's the idea. Singling out Toto and Horner makes for a nice click-baity headline though.

I see now. helps to read the article .

 

Good move then!

[as65p]

The other way of dealing with team bosses pressurising the race director is to appoint a race director who can handle the pressure and still make the correct calls.

Even a hypothetic best person for the job will make better decisions while not being distracted by entirely predictable and utterly biased voices in his ear.

[Fastcake]

I saw Brawn saying this elsewhere, but it's not his call, it'll be down to whoever is in charge of race control next year.

 

The teams need to contact race control during a session. Every series has some form of communication, as I gather from the endless discussion this has generated. The question is how it should be done - should the team principals be able to directly speak to the race director, or should there be an intermediary. The current system is likely not changed from how Charlie Whiting ran things, but it's evident that only worked smoothly because of Charlie.

[FLB]

I saw Brawn saying this elsewhere, but it's not his call, it'll be down to whoever is in charge of race control next year.

Brawn is part of the problem, IMHO. He keeps making calls on the sporting side when that's not his employer's call, but the FIA's (EX: the constant push to reorganize the race weekends, i.e. the Sprint races). He's one who constantly blurs the line between the sporting and the commercial side of things.

[P123]

Team members should only be speaking to the race director when the race director decides to speak to them.

[PlatenGlass]

I saw Brawn saying this elsewhere, but it's not his call, it'll be down to whoever is in charge of race control next year.

The teams need to contact race control during a session. Every series has some form of communication, as I gather from the endless discussion this has generated. The question is how it should be done - should the team principals be able to directly speak to the race director, or should there be an intermediary. The current system is likely not changed from how Charlie Whiting ran things, but it's evident that only worked smoothly because of Charlie.

There's no reason why there can't be an intermediary, and in some (valid) cases a decision could still be made to connect them directly.

[mclarensmps]

Just because it's televised now, it's banned. Yet more stupid Netflix drama. As if this never happened before.

What a total farce this is turning into. 

Incidentally I would agree with it if it was across the board for all teams. 

[aportinga]

It should be and communication between pit and driver limited as well. Let the guys race.

[Brawn BGP 001]

Personally I'd ban them both from atteneding a race, like a touchline ban in football.

[Radman]

Looking forward to Ross Brawn stepping away from F1

[Afterburner]

I've edited the thread title to be more descriptive.

[ARTGP]

Just because it's televised now, it's banned. Yet more stupid Netflix drama. As if this never happened before.

What a total farce this is turning into. 

Incidentally I would agree with it if it was across the board for all teams. 

 

It is across the board for all teams. It's not just a Horner/Toto rule. That old thread title was erroneous and misleading.

[ARTGP]

It should be and communication between pit and driver limited as well. Let the guys race.

 

I don't have a problem with the driver being told when to pit, deliberating on strategy, or being told the gaps over the radio. The rest of it can go in the bin. Let them use their brains to go faster or save tires over a stint. Listening to the engineer tell the driver to watch the front tire temperature in T17 never felt right. Too much information.

Edited by ARTGP, 14 December 2021 - 23:46.

[mclarensmps]

It is across the board for all teams. It's not just a Horner/Toto rule. That old thread title was erroneous and misleading.

 

In which case I'm fully in agreement!

[ANF]

I really liked this piece by Glenn Freeman about team principals and managers screaming at the race director: https://the-race.com...f1-finale-mess/

And in particular this suggestion:

Football features a ‘fourth official’ on the touchline who has the unfortunate job (among more formal duties) of standing between the managers to be shouted at every time they are unhappy about something.

Perhaps F1 needs the same system? Effectively a human shield to allow the race director to get on with their job? That person could then pass on any relevant messages to Masi, which would probably be about 5% of what makes its way along the radio airwaves from the teams during sessions.

 

[ClubmanGT]

Some series have series delegates in the garages and the only people the teams liase with is them. They're the ones who give feedback to RC in the event of an incident. 

 

If it means RC isn't getting screamed at by manbabies then it's probably a good idea. 

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I think people are giving Horner and Wolff far too much grief over such communications.  Once the race director makes it clear that he's receptive to them and can bend to them, then team principals would be doing a disservice to their teams to not plead their cases.  This is why you need to limit such communications by rules.  I'm personally not a fan of "Silence, fools, my word is always final" approach that's used in soccer, I think some communication line to the officials is necessary, but something needs to be in place to discourage routine politicking that we've seen this season.

[loki]

I saw Brawn saying this elsewhere, but it's not his call, it'll be down to whoever is in charge of race control next year.

 

The teams need to contact race control during a session. Every series has some form of communication, as I gather from the endless discussion this has generated. The question is how it should be done - should the team principals be able to directly speak to the race director, or should there be an intermediary. The current system is likely not changed from how Charlie Whiting ran things, but it's evident that only worked smoothly because of Charlie.

 

Indycar and Nascar have officials in pit lane through which they relay communication.  Race control has the ability to broadcast either directly to the cars or teams over the radio as well.

[AustinF1]

It's BS to apply it only to two teams or specific persons. I'm saying all the time communication should be one-way, RC > teams, during official timed sessions, i.e. qualifying and race.

100% this.

[AustinF1]

I really liked this piece by Glenn Freeman about team principals and managers screaming at the race director: https://the-race.com...f1-finale-mess/

And in particular this suggestion:

Some of us have already been asking for this. Either the teams cannot contact race control at all, or there should be personnel dedicated only to the task of fielding & screening such team comms to RC.

 

I've been as critical of Masi as anyone here, but it can't help him at all to have people hammering his ears via the radio when he's trying to manage race chaos. It seems like his job is very similar in many ways to my old job taking 911 fire calls and dispatching fire trucks. The more talk you have coming at you, esp through a headset & esp from multiple sources, the harder it gets to work things out. It gets exponentially more difficult, and very quickly, at that.

Edited by AustinF1, 15 December 2021 - 18:15.

[OneAndOnly]

Yes please.

Edited by OneAndOnly, 15 December 2021 - 08:45.

[Cliff]

Let the teams have to press a button so the RD get's a light that they want to speak to him. Then let him decide. Or go to a time-out system where teams can only contact RD twice per race or something along those lines.

[JeePee]

It's BS to apply it only to two teams or specific persons. I'm saying all the time communication should be one-way, RC > teams, during official timed sessions, i.e. qualifying and race.

Teams should be able to talk to race control.

 

Like in Baku, it was good to know for race direction that Max didn't get any warning/vibration on his blown wheel. Or if there is a hazard on track and a driver reports this to his team.

 

It should however never be used to lobby a yes/no SC situation.

[pdac]

Why do I get the feeling this rule has only been introduced to protect Masi from adverse publicity.

[OneAndOnly]

Teams should be able to talk to race control.

Like in Baku, it was good to know for race direction that Max didn't get any warning/vibration on his blown wheel. Or if there is a hazard on track and a driver reports this to his team.

It should however never be used to lobby a yes/no SC situation.

Agree, but in limited capacity. Not to suggest RD what decision to make. Imagine it other way around.
Masi: “hey Toto. I think you should box Lewis for fresh tires on safety grounds. He’s driving on 40 laps old tires. It could be dangerous”.

[wrcva]

This is another politically correct BS move as a knee-jerk reaction (you would not expect from a seasoned pro like Brawn).  It does not fix anything except insult fans' intelligence even more.  It is the TPs job to keep team interests above all else based on agreed upon sporting rules all sides have to obey.  During the race there is no reason to censure, or eliminate discussions between anybody.  Those radio comms give additional insight about the race progress, technical or rule issues as well as intangibles such as emotions, not to mention the fact that there could be legitimate safety issues that may need to be communicated in an escalated manner.    

 

They need to decide if this is some Netflix drama or half decent competitive racing based on fair and sensible sporting rules all can understand, and respect.  No, you cannot make up new rules real time, or make nonsensical discretionary calls by the RD just to enhance the drama or TV optics either.

 

F1 fans can handle the truth and facts!   If the RD is not up to the task, then you have an HR issue rather than some communication problem.  This is a total farce.

 

[Rocket73]

good

[baddog]

 The current system is likely not changed from how Charlie Whiting ran things, but it's evident that only worked smoothly because of Charlie.

 

The fact it wasn't public so no-one outside knew the dirty deals being done regularly.

[PayasYouRace]

This is another politically correct BS move as a knee-jerk reaction (you would not expect from a seasoned pro like Brawn). It does not fix anything except insult fans' intelligence even more. It is the TPs job to keep team interests above all else based on agreed upon sporting rules all sides have to obey. During the race there is no reason to censure, or eliminate discussions between anybody. Those radio comms give additional insight about the race progress, technical or rule issues as well as intangibles such as emotions, not to mention the fact that there could be legitimate safety issues that may need to be communicated in an escalated manner.

They need to decide if this is some Netflix drama or half decent competitive racing based on fair and sensible sporting rules all can understand, and respect. No, you cannot make up new rules real time, or make nonsensical discretionary calls by the RD just to enhance the drama or TV optics either.

F1 fans can handle the truth and facts! If the RD is not up to the task, then you have an HR issue rather than some communication problem. This is a total farce.

Sounds like you want the Netflix drama. The best thing for the sport is to allow the race director to do his job without having the equivalent of a classroom of primary school children whining at him while he’s trying to do it.

If needed, provided a dedicated, controlled means of contacting the race director by a team member. But the current system of allowing every team executive sitting in the prat perch unlimited direct comms with the race director is only going to distract and saturate him/her and prevent them from making sound decisions.

[PayasYouRace]

Teams should be able to talk to race control.

Like in Baku, it was good to know for race direction that Max didn't get any warning/vibration on his blown wheel. Or if there is a hazard on track and a driver reports this to his team.

It should however never be used to lobby a yes/no SC situation.

This is where an intermediary would be ideal. The teams talk to the intermediary, who can then relay pertinent information to the race director. Safety information can be passed on and the lobbying can be stopped in its tracks.

[Stephane]

You know it's an habit for Toto when you see how fast he can push the right button to talk to Mikey.

[Arundo]

Great news if this is true, got so tired of Toto and Horner this season. 

[garoidb]

You know it's an habit for Toto when you see how fast he can push the right button to talk to Mikey.

 

Communication with the race director should only be via a coin-operated telephone kiosk in the back of the paddock. 

[w00dy]

This is where an intermediary would be ideal. The teams talk to the intermediary, who can then relay pertinent information to the race director. Safety information can be passed on and the lobbying can be stopped in its tracks.

 

But the intermediary makes the process slower.

 

The teams should message race control. That way a lot of the emotion can be taken out of it. The comms is async that way.

And the messages should be reasoned. "No, Michael no!" is not a message that the RD should get during his work. "Can you take a look at overtake attempt at turn4, X missed the apex or against reg x.y" should be ok.

And second guessing from the teams should be a no-no. There is simply no time.

 

I really don't know what happened this year, multiple factors. intense battle instead of the dominance of previous years, changes to the process.

Feels like ages ago, but it was at Silverstone that the TPs got banned from lobbying the stewards directly. That change also put more pressure on the RD.

Edited by w00dy, 16 December 2021 - 10:05.

[Claudius]

Finally. Too much lobbying going on today.

 

I would also ban team to driver communication except some basic things. Want the drivers to make decisions about where to brake all by themelves and not be told by the pits.

But it´ll never happen...

[PayasYouRace]

But the intermediary makes the process slower.

The teams should message race control. That way a lot of the emotion can be taken out of it. The comms is async that way.
And the messages should be reasoned. "No, Michael no!" is not a message that the RD should get during his work. "Can you take a look at overtake attempt at turn4, X missed the apex or against reg x.y" should be ok.
And second guessing from the teams should be a no-no. There is simply no time.

I really don't know what happened this year, multiple factors. intense battle instead of the dominance of previous years, changes to the process.
Feels like ages ago, but it was at Silverstone that the TPs got banned from lobbying the stewards directly. That change also put more pressure on the RD.

There usually isn’t anything that the teams need to bring to the race director’s attention that’s so urgent that it couldn’t go via a someone else working for race control.

Safety is number one and that’s not in the team’s purview. Your example of “can you take a look at this overtake” isn’t particularly time critical and that’s exactly what an intermediary would be able to filter through while leaving out the whining.

[Papaya]

It will stop the constant moaning from the TPs in public for sure.

However, I could see it leaving the door open for Masi/F1 to conduct the race fixing in peace l away away from public eye.

[Spillage]

Yes please. They should not be allowed to effectively harangue the referee.

Some communication between the teams and race control is of course necessary - reporting debris, visibility in bad weather, technical information about a tyre failure etc - but you shouldn't be able to ring up race control and challenge their decisions midway through the race.

[Stephane]

Finally. Too much lobbying going on today.

 

I would also ban team to driver communication except some basic things. Want the drivers to make decisions about where to brake all by themelves and not be told by the pits.

But it´ll never happen...

It happened, it just did not last

[AlexPrime]

Good decision.

[Sterzo]

I'm not too bothered about officials being harassed, but could Horner and Wolff please be banned from communicating with me? Both are good blokes and high achievers, but they've spent this year swinging handbags at each other (is it still legal to say that?). I, Sterzo, second-rate manager, technical incompetent and failed kart racer, have had enough.

[Eyeshield]

Rubbish, rubbish and rubbish.

Just like many other so called 'rules', this one doesn't go far enough. Another half arsed attempt to fix something that is broken. This is how we end up where we are today.

Come back with a better solution and if you can't do that don't bother.

[Claudius]

It happened, it just did not last

 

True.

Can't remember why it wasn't lasting though.