417 replies to this topic

[timmy bolt]

Autosports top 50 Drivers of the Year is up.... I'm sure we'll all agree they got it right (  eek)

[TradeMark]

Autosports top 50 Drivers of the Year is up.... I'm sure we'll all agree they got it right (  eek)

LOL, some people are really very sour indeed.

 

edit: @ others: https://www.autospor...2021/2297/news/ for the list

Edited by TradeMark, 16 December 2021 - 10:56.

[QdfV]

Well, we agree the ranking is not a surprise, from Autosport, but to recognize that Hamilton made a lot and several big mistakes in 2021 but still rate him number one is a bit more than a bit ridiculous, but ok, as I say no surprise coming from Autosport with Kevin Turner at the helm.

[TradeMark]

So the F1 Drivers in their list (in brackets their ranking for just F1 Drivers):

 

1. Hamilton (1)

2. Verstappen (2)

3. Norris (3)

6. Leclerc (4)

7. Sainz (5)

10. Gasly (6)

12. Russell (7)

21. Bottas (8)

24. Alonso (9)

25. Perez (10)

30. Ricciardo (11) 

33. Ocon (12)

39. Vettel (13) 

 

(I can't see 47-50 for some reason)

[timmy bolt]

So the F1 Drivers in their list (in brackets their ranking for just F1 Drivers):

 

1. Hamilton (1)

2. Verstappen (2)

3. Norris (3)

6. Leclerc (4)

7. Sainz (5)

10. Gasly (6)

12. Russell (7)

21. Bottas (8)

24. Alonso (9)

25. Perez (10)

30. Ricciardo (11) 

33. Ocon (12)

39. Vettel (13) 

 

(I can't see 47-50 for some reason)

 

There arn't any f1 drivers in 47-50 so all ok. 

[FTB]

Hamilton wasn't better than Verstappen this year.

Bottas ahead of Alonso 

[timmy bolt]

Well, we agree the ranking is not a surprise, from Autosport, but to recognize that Hamilton made a lot and several big mistakes in 2021 but still rate him number one is a bit more than a bit ridiculous, but ok, as I say no surprise coming from Autosport with Kevin Turner at the helm.

 

Well the reason was Max would have many more "mistakes" or made bad judgements if it wasn't for Hamilton backing out so often or the soft approach from the FIA. 

 

Spain Turn 1 being cited. 

 

Its all subjective and I can see why they think that. 

[statman]

Well, we agree the ranking is not a surprise, from Autosport, but to recognize that Hamilton made a lot and several big mistakes in 2021 but still rate him number one is a bit more than a bit ridiculous, but ok, as I say no surprise coming from Autosport with Kevin Turner at the helm.

 

    This is important to keep in mind.

[timmy bolt]

I'm still really keen to see marklars update of the race by race scores. There would have been a sizeable swing to Hamilton in the last 2 races. But don't think it would be enough...

[timmy bolt]

This is important to keep in mind.

Why? Historically autosport has underscored Hamilton compared to AMUS. Are German magazines particularly pro Hamilton?

[Ivanhoe]

I'm pretty sure Verstappen has a higher average Autosport rating than Hamilton. Bit childish to not give the P1 to the WDC, but it's probably a statement for the last lap AD controversy.

[timmy bolt]

I'm pretty sure Verstappen has a higher average Autosport rating than Hamilton. Bit childish to not give the P1 to the WDC, but it's probably a statement for the last lap AD controversy.

Not really much point in a top 50 list if it goes straight to the f1 winner?

Personally I could see it go either way so I wouldn't have minded max being on top.

[Timorous]

I'm pretty sure Verstappen has a higher average Autosport rating than Hamilton. Bit childish to not give the P1 to the WDC, but it's probably a statement for the last lap AD controversy.

 

I think Max has been overrated in the last few GPs tbh.

 

He defended air in Brazil and lost a place. Then he missed the double yellows in Qatar, then he crashed in SA Quali and flubbed the 1st restart and finally he flat spotted the better starting tyre which meant a compromised strategy and ended up nowhere in the race until the hand of Masi.

 

Lewis on the other hand has absolutely smashed the last 4 races. Brazil was an amazing comeback drive from a huge setback, Qatar he just smashed it from start to finish. SA he was calm and controlled despite the shenanigans and then in AD he bossed it again and was absolutely exemplary in the face of huge injustice.

 

I do really think the catalogue of errors at the end of the season for Max do outweigh the Imola and Baku mistakes Hamilton made so on balance, in terms of performances I think Lewis has edged it because he was able to perform under the pressure of requiring perfection to win the title and Max wilted.

[Ivanhoe]

Not really much point in a top 50 list if it goes straight to the f1 winner?

Personally I could see it go either way so I wouldn't have minded max being on top.

Yeah, fair point. I think they gave it to Max as well in one of the years where Lewis won it (think 2018)

[TradeMark]

Yeah, fair point. I think they gave it to Max as well in one of the years where Lewis won it (think 2018)

No, in 2019 and 2020 it was Lewis 1 and Max 2, in 2018 it was Lewis 1 and Max 5. In 2017 it was Lewis 1 and Max 2 (so it's already the 4th time they ended 1st and 2nd, always same order).

 

In 2016 is the last time the champion wasn't first. There actually Ricciardo was put 1st (????), Hamilton 2nd, no idea where Rosberg/Max were. (edit: Max 3rd and Rosberg 5th)

 

edit2: and to complete, 2015 had Lewis 1 and Max 10. 2014: Ricciardo also ended 1st, so Ricciardo already won it twice, Hamilton 2nd and Max (not in F1 yet) 30th

Edited by TradeMark, 16 December 2021 - 11:47.

[timmy bolt]

Max was always going to find it difficult in 2019 and 2020. Basically best of the rest car. A kind of no man's land comfortably ahead of everyone else but not able to compete with the mercs.

[Cliff]

When you listen to the podcast about how the top 50 decision was made you hear all you need to know. 3 Brits still sour about past Sunday.

 

Over the entire year Max was better.

[Timorous]

When you listen to the podcast about how the top 50 decision was made you hear all you need to know. 3 Brits still sour about past Sunday.

 

Over the entire year Max was better.

 

Until he crumbled in the last 4 races with mistake after mistake after mistake. Despite having the points lead and Lewis needing absolute perfection after the Brazil quali DSQ.

 

Lewis was absolute clutch for the last 4 races, Max was error prone and over the line and it took an official to heavily tilt it in very very heavily his favour at the very end to get the job done.

 

Over the season Lewis was the better performer, especially when it really mattered.

[statman]

Until he crumbled in the last 4 races with mistake after mistake after mistake. Despite having the points lead and Lewis needing absolute perfection after the Brazil quali DSQ.

 

Lewis was absolute clutch for the last 4 races, Max was error prone and over the line and it took an official to heavily tilt it in very very heavily his favour at the very end to get the job done.

 

Over the season Lewis was the better performer, especially when it really mattered.

 

Interesting that you mention Lewis was clutch for the last 4 races and then simply conclude he was the best performer this season...

 

I haven't seen many Lewis fans on this forum claim he was the best performer before the last 4 races

Edited by statman, 16 December 2021 - 12:23.

[TheFish]

Interesting that you mention Lewis was clutch for the last 4 races and then simply conclude he was the best performer this season...

 

I haven't seen many Lewis fans on this forum claim he was the best performer before the last 4 races

That was before Max fluffed starts, kept making mistakes, intentionally driving off the circuit, brake testing etc.

 

Before Brazil I had Max down as the best of the year. I didn't, by the end. The reputation that he was impervious to pressure didn't last long.

[Timorous]

Interesting that you mention Lewis was clutch for the last 4 races and then simply conclude he was the best performer this season...

 

As I said further up. I think the combination of errors Max made in Qatar, SA, and AD out weigh the ones Lewis made at Imola and Baku.

 

I would place Max's Russia race on par with Hamilton at Monaco. The difference is that the rain + a nothing to lose call bailed him out.

 

For the rest of the season they were pretty much even stevens.

 

So yes, what swings it in the end is the last few races where Max's level dropped off and Hamilton's skyrocketed. When you add in that Hamilton had to be perfect in those last 4 races to stand a chance it further elevates it.

[SenorSjon]

Until he crumbled in the last 4 races with mistake after mistake after mistake. Despite having the points lead and Lewis needing absolute perfection after the Brazil quali DSQ.

 

Lewis was absolute clutch for the last 4 races, Max was error prone and over the line and it took an official to heavily tilt it in very very heavily his favour at the very end to get the job done.

 

Over the season Lewis was the better performer, especially when it really mattered.

 

Finishing 2nd, 2nd, 2nd and 1st... He has never finished lower than 2nd when nothing bad happened to him. Lewis didn't do that. In the end, in the final lap, Lewis led his guard down in T5 and he got passed immediately. As Perez showed, it is possible to defend to keep a car behind for a lap on much fresher tires.

 

About the Autosport list some more weird stuff.

Frijns (45): 1st LMP2, won LeMans (despite having one earlier LMP2 outing before this season) and 5th FE

Da Costa (17): 3rd LMP2 and 8th FE but had a good pole lap in LeMans...

 

Lewis explaination on that list is a love fest like only true fans could scribble down. Things like Silverstone as if it was out of his hands and Verstappens (indirect) fault. He will be 1st on that list long after he retires.

 

 

---

I'm pondering about a topic where you randomize the race order and build a narrative on it. If you put all Lewis wins first, it is a might fightback from Verstappen and vice versa. 

[Scaboo22]

Imagine rating Tsunoda higher than Schumacher simply because he had a better car. Yuki was unimpressive all year bar the last 2 races, while Schumacher dominated his team mate all season. 

[timmy bolt]

That was before Max fluffed starts, kept making mistakes, intentionally driving off the circuit, brake testing etc.

Before Brazil I had Max down as the best of the year. I didn't, by the end. The reputation that he was impervious to pressure didn't last long.

Yeah max was a shoe in for best driver ahead of Brazil. But final 4 races moved the bar for me. I was 50/50 by the end of the season.

[ForzaGTR]

As great as Max has been, he hasn't been flawless and for many of us, his driving standards under wheel to wheel combat are unacceptable. P2 is right. 

[Requiem84]

If the average driver ratings of Autosport give a higher rating to Verstappen, but yet they place him below Hamilton on this list, it seems we have 2 lists:

 

1) slightly subjective rating list

2) a very subjective top 50 list. 

[statman]

As I said further up. I think the combination of errors Max made in Qatar, SA, and AD out weigh the ones Lewis made at Imola and Baku.

 

I would place Max's Russia race on par with Hamilton at Monaco. The difference is that the rain + a nothing to lose call bailed him out.

 

For the rest of the season they were pretty much even stevens.

 

So yes, what swings it in the end is the last few races where Max's level dropped off and Hamilton's skyrocketed. When you add in that Hamilton had to be perfect in those last 4 races to stand a chance it further elevates it.

 

It's of course your personal opinion, but not even the international media ratings (including the British) agree with these views during the season:

 

[Collombin]

I seem to recall the British-biased Autosport ranking Kubica number 1 in 2008 FWIW.

[Stephane]

 

 

---

I'm pondering about a topic where you randomize the race order and build a narrative on it. If you put all Lewis wins first, it is a might fightback from Verstappen and vice versa. 

 

 

 

Please don't make Spa or AD the last race.

[timmy bolt]

It's of course your personal opinion, but not even the international media ratings (including the British) agree with these views during the season:

2 races are missing.

[P123]

If the average driver ratings of Autosport give a higher rating to Verstappen, but yet they place him below Hamilton on this list, it seems we have 2 lists:

 

1) slightly subjective rating list

2) a very subjective top 50 list. 

 

The top 50 list has never matched exactly matched what they have for their ratings.  You will get that in their F1 Top 10.  Different criteria, different compilers.

[messy]

ooh so much to unpack there. Some overrated (Bottas), some underrated. But yeah, I'd have put Max ahead personally too.

[Spillage]

So the F1 Drivers in their list (in brackets their ranking for just F1 Drivers):

1. Hamilton (1)
2. Verstappen (2)
3. Norris (3)
6. Leclerc (4)
7. Sainz (5)
10. Gasly (6)
12. Russell (7)
21. Bottas (8)
24. Alonso (9)
25. Perez (10)
30. Ricciardo (11)
33. Ocon (12)
39. Vettel (13)

(I can't see 47-50 for some reason)

Top 2 are the wrong way round but otherwise not a bad list really. Think I'd swap Bottas and Alonso too.

[AnR]

2 races are missing.

 

I think they had equal points in the end, I suspect you mean between Max and Lewis, IMO Max is easily the best driver over the season, but Red Bull had no answer for Mercs pace at the end, and that made for some decisions to be questionable by Max, but to perhaps put an end to that kind of domination, 15 titles in eight years have never happened again and perhaps never wil

[BobbyRicky]

I dont mind Norris being in the top 10, but having him infront of Larson, Palou and Ogier seems abit off to me. 

[PoliFanAthic]

Max should have been first, no doubt for me. So much recency bias.

[Frood]

I understand the F1 bias as it is the most watched series in the world... but can you really say that Valtteri Bottas had a better season than, for example, Kamui Kobayashi or Oscar Piastri?

[cpbell]

Hamilton wasn't better than Verstappen this year.

Bottas ahead of Alonso 

Yes, that one baffles me as well.

[cpbell]

I understand the F1 bias as it is the most watched series in the world... but can you really say that Valtteri Bottas had a better season than, for example, Kamui Kobayashi or Oscar Piastri?

Indeed, but they always do this.

[fed up]

That was before Max fluffed starts, kept making mistakes, intentionally driving off the circuit, brake testing etc.

 

Before Brazil I had Max down as the best of the year. I didn't, by the end. The reputation that he was impervious to pressure didn't last long.

This is exactly where I am with it. Max was great up until Brazil, but the last 4 races should have seen him disqualified, penalised effectively and he was soundly beaten in AD.

 

I mean, what race was it where he was tracking 3rd behind the mercs, safety car comes out and he somehow ends up ahead of both Mercs, yet still lost the race?

 

Max is great driver for sure, but this year he’s benefited from the hand of God so to speak. 

[TheFish]

This is exactly where I am with it. Max was great up until Brazil, but the last 4 races should have seen him disqualified, penalised effectively and he was soundly beaten in AD.

 

I mean, what race was it where he was tracking 3rd behind the mercs, safety car comes out and he somehow ends up ahead of both Mercs, yet still lost the race?

 

Max is great driver for sure, but this year he’s benefited from the hand of God so to speak. 

Calling Masi God is a bit extreme..

[cpbell]

I dont mind Norris being in the top 10, but having him infront of Larson, Palou and Ogier seems abit off to me. 

I put him 6th in my F1-only top 10, which should give you an idea of my thoughts on the matter.

[messy]

To be fair - Imola, Baku and Silverstone were all massive fortune for Lewis. It evens out over the season - and I think that's what happened only Max got the luck right at the death in the most public, controversial way possible - to enable him to win a championship he should have wrapped up a couple of races before.

[Atreiu]

I see they keep giving some drivers sympathy points for no good reason.

[Spillage]

Lewis on the other hand has absolutely smashed the last 4 races.

The last four races were very impressive but on the whole it was probably Hamilton's scruffiest season since 2013. There were three big errors  at Imola, Baku and Silverstone and it's a mark of how comparatively lucky he was that he actually gained  18 points on Verstappen in those races. Normally errors like that would cost you much more. There was also an anonymous weekend in Monaco and a couple of other races where he didn't quite maximise what he had - he was quite lucky to win in Russia after a poor qualifying; he should really have parked the car on pole and won the race by 20-odd seconds there. I think the same about Monza - the accident was not Hamilton's fault but they clearly had the fastest car that weekend so he shouldn't have been racing Verstappen in the first place.

 

I think Verstappen was quite a bit more consistent generally. Monza was a big error and Saudi was a complete mess, but otherwise he pretty much maximised it all weekend. I don't think. Autosport's point that he would have made more mistakes if Hamilton hadn't bailed out is an odd one - if you're aggressive and get away with it. is that a mistake? If it helps you win then surely it's just good racecraft?

Edited by Spillage, 16 December 2021 - 13:23.

[Retrofly]

There were three big errors  at Imola, Baku and Silverstone

Getting 25 points over your nearest competitor is an error?

[pacificquay]

I dont mind Norris being in the top 10, but having him infront of Larson, Palou and Ogier seems abit off to me. 

 

Difficult to compare f1 to Nascar and Rallying, but Lando Norris would certainly take Alex Palou to the cleaners every day of the week

[TheFish]

 There were big errors at Silverstone and it's a mark of how comparatively lucky he was that he actually gained  18 points on Verstappen

 

I don't think. Autosport's point that he would have made more mistakes if Hamilton hadn't bailed out is an odd one - if you're aggressive and get away with it. is that a mistake? If it helps you win then surely it's just good racecraft?

These 2 seem a bit at odds with each other.

[Whatisvalis]

Well, we agree the ranking is not a surprise, from Autosport, but to recognize that Hamilton made a lot and several big mistakes in 2021 but still rate him number one is a bit more than a bit ridiculous, but ok, as I say no surprise coming from Autosport with Kevin Turner at the helm.

Look at Ver last four races compared to Hamilton. One driver was sublime while the other was littered with mistakes and penalties. Once the dust settles I think we will come to appreciate just how amazing that run in was from Hamilton, under such immense pressure.

[timmy bolt]

To be fair - Imola, Baku and Silverstone were all massive fortune for Lewis. It evens out over the season - and I think that's what happened only Max got the luck right at the death in the most public, controversial way possible - to enable him to win a championship he should have wrapped up a couple of races before.

The problem with trying to apply luck is everyone sees it differently.

Max has had a fair few penalties / near penalties this year but they've not really changed the outcome. The 10s and 5s at Abu Dhabi being obvious examples. Is that lucky that he was still 2nd or a result of him being so far up the road with hamilton? Subjective.

Same goes for Russia. Was his early pit stop onto wets from 5th lucky or was it a good strategic call even without hindsight. Again subjective.

Hamilton backing out of his t1 lunge in Spain? Subjective.

Edited by timmy bolt, 16 December 2021 - 13:27.