476 replies to this topic

[Bliman]

If he is being passed he greatly compromised as well. Isn't that logical to you? Also, if his intention was to get a great exit, why did he turn into Verstappen in such a way that he had to correct mid corner? 

But don't you see it is a catch 22, he did not have an option. Now at least Max is also compromised by the dive.

I don't get your intention of a great exit? Both were compromised by the dive. But Max gets the benefit of the inside and better tires. And of course he will go more to the middle to have a better exit then if he stayed totally on the outside. But not a better exit than Max.

[Bliman]

You cannot divebomb if the driver in front does protect the inside.
The fact Checo came back at Lewis twice is inexcusable for Lewis. The 2nd one - he did not hug the line on a f*** straight. That’s a big mistake

Sure but by then Hamilton has defended the inside and Max can take the ideal line giving him an easy pass on the next section.

[Singularity]

You cannot divebomb if the driver in front does protect the inside.
The fact Checo came back at Lewis twice is inexcusable for Lewis. The 2nd one - he did not hug the line on a f*** straight. That’s a big mistake

Exactly. If you really expect a divebomb you protect the inside. I don't think Hamilton expected anything at all there and with all the controversy about Masi's decision many tend to overlook what a brilliant pass Max did.  

[Bliman]

Exactly. If you really expect a divebomb you protect the inside. I don't think Hamilton expected anything at all there and with all the controversy about Masi's decision many tend to overlook what a brilliant pass Max did.  

So compromise the next section and give a very easy pass? Great.

[Singularity]

But don't you see it is a catch 22, he did not have an option. Now at least Max is also compromised by the dive.

I don't get your intention of a great exit? Both were compromised by the dive. But Max gets the benefit of the inside and better tires. And of course he will go more to the middle to have a better exit then if he stayed totally on the outside. But not a better exit than Max.

It is catch 22 for you because you believe there was no alternative endings. There was many. 

[Singularity]

So compromise the next section and give a very easy pass? Great.

I don't think you'll find many racing drivers that think that letting someone pass in order to get a better exit is a great idea.

[Diablobb81]

So compromise the next section and give a very easy pass? Great.

Academic. Since he already gave a very easy opening.

Edited by Diablobb81, 02 January 2022 - 18:53.

[Bliman]

I don't think you'll find many racing drivers that think that letting someone pass in order to get a better exit is a great idea.

You will be very surprised by that. It is a very valid tactic (ever heard of the cutback). You seem to be forgetting that Max has all the aces. It is all about traction, grip and braking.

You have to in some way negate the tire difference. The same as what Max was doing in Brazil.

So what he could do is take the inside and slow so much down that Max gets fed up and takes the outside. And you will drive him far off the road (which to me is illegitimate). The problem with that is you need him to take the bait. Second, your tires will be totally done for and Max can also keep his foot in. I think the chance is much greater knowing Max is that he takes the ideal line and know you have the better tire and go for the easy pass. And we are now even talking about this small section.

[Bliman]

Academic. Since he already gave a very easy opening.

Sure but the other way around is also academic. So it doesn't matter.

[Singularity]

You will be very surprised by that. It is a very valid tactic (ever heard of the cutback). You seem to be forgetting that Max has all the aces. It is all about traction, grip and braking.

You have to in some way negate the tire difference. The same as what Max was doing in Brazil.

So what he could do is take the inside and slow so much down that Max gets fed up and takes the outside. And you will drive him far off the road (which to me is illegitimate). The problem with that is you need him to take the bait. Second, your tires will be totally done for and Max can also keep his foot in. I think the chance is much greater knowing Max is that he takes the ideal line and know you have the better tire and go for the easy pass. And we are now even talking about this small section.

A cutback is something else, a reaction to something that has already happened, a car that is already on the inside or that you can no longer prevent from getting on the inside. That is not what Hamilton did, neither was it something he attempted to do. He should have defended and he would have defended if he thought there was a risk that Max was going for it there. He made a misjudgment and lost the championship. He was put in the position, where a tiny error like that came to a huge cost, by Masi, but the actual mistake was his own.

[Clrnc]

A cutback is something else, a reaction to something that has already happened, a car that is already on the inside or that you can no longer prevent from getting on the inside. That is not what Hamilton did, neither was it something he attempted to do. He should have defended and he would have defended if he thought there was a risk that Max was going for it there. He made a misjudgment and lost the championship. He was put in the position, where a tiny error like that came to a huge cost, by Masi, but the actual mistake was his own.

Yup. That's a fair take. I am sure you give him another chance knowing Max will try there he will defend the inside. 

 

As a Merc when you are in front, you still hold some aces even if there are not many because of his old hard tyres. But it's better to force the guy the long way and overtake next corner than just give the corner up early for a better exit and try to come back. It's rubbish thinking.

[Bliman]

A cutback is something else, a reaction to something that has already happened, a car that is already on the inside or that you can no longer prevent from getting on the inside. That is not what Hamilton did, neither was it something he attempted to do. He should have defended and he would have defended if he thought there was a risk that Max was going for it there. He made a misjudgment and lost the championship. He was put in the position, where a tiny error like that came to a huge cost, by Masi, but the actual mistake was his own.

So follow this through for me. So Hamilton defends the inside line and Max is on the racing line or behind im. Then tell me what happens. Maybe I don't see something you do.

[Bliman]

Yup. That's a fair take. I am sure you give him another chance knowing Max will try there he will defend the inside. 

 

As a Merc when you are in front, you still hold some aces even if there are not many because of his old hard tyres. But it's better to force the guy the long way and overtake next corner than just give the corner up early for a better exit and try to come back. It's rubbish thinking.

Why do you think Max would go the long way?

[Singularity]

So follow this through for me. So Hamilton defends the inside line and Max is on the racing line or behind im. Then tell me what happens. Maybe I don't see something you do.

He would've been ahead instead of behind. That is, for most racing drivers, a preferred situation. You keep ignoring Hamilton's superior straight-line speed which meant that even if Max's new tires would have brought him up alongside (which is doubtful), it would probably not have been enough for a pass on the straight. When you have the top speed but less grip, you are most vulnerable in the braking zone. He should have defended, there's no way around that.

EDIT: Reason why you are more vulnerable in the braking zone is because the load on the tires are around 2.5 times greater than under acceleration, which means that the difference in grip levels are much more emphasized there. 

Edited by Singularity, 02 January 2022 - 21:38.

[MikeTekRacing]

Hamilton did not optimize his T5 exit. He gave up track position AND turned in normally to find Max there and compromise his exit.
If he was expecting a lunge there, he woule have turned in later and he would have done the switch, optimizing his exit.

[taran]

If both had crashed, Lewis had finished 10th and Verstappen 11th. Both of them just needed one point more than the other.

 

Didn't the FIA warn both drivers they would deduct points if a driver caused a collision on purpose to win the championship? So that option is thankfully off the table.....
 

[Bliman]

He would've been ahead instead of behind. That is, for most racing drivers, a preferred situation. You keep ignoring Hamilton's superior straight-line speed which meant that even if Max's new tires would have brought him up alongside (which is doubtful), it would probably not have been enough for a pass on the straight. When you have the top speed but less grip, you are most vulnerable in the braking zone. He should have defended, there's no way around that.

EDIT: Reason why you are more vulnerable in the braking zone is because the load on the tires are around 2.5 times greater than under acceleration, which means that the difference in grip levels are much more emphasized there. 

He would be ahead at the corner but completely compromised for the next part. You say he had superior straight line speed but why is it that he then couldn't overtake Max when he had a long straight and slipstream?

I think that defending there would have made no difference. Now at least Max his line was also compromised. It is the traction that counted not the straight-line speed. If it was the straight line speed then he would overtaken Max on the straight and he couldn't do it even with full slipstream he only could have gone alongside.

So I really think you are incorrect.

[prty]

I find your arguments very weird. If Hamilton defends the inside than Max just takes the optimal line and has it even easier because he has much better traction and better grip due to the tire difference and now has the better line too. I find it baffling why I should not take into account his tires. It just makes no sense.

See 1:30 of this video:

https://youtu.be/12lU7KQNFq8

Alonso defended, yet he had a better exit than Hamilton, on older, harder tyres AND a much slower car.

Edited by prty, 03 January 2022 - 00:01.

[Bliman]

See 1:30 of this video:

https://youtu.be/12lU7KQNFq8

Alonso defended, yet he had a better exit than Hamilton, on older, harder tyres AND a much slower car.

I have no idea why you showed me this. The tracks are totally different. You cannot just compare something and say it fits.

[TomNokoe]

One trick Hamilton could've played was to leave it at late as possible before restarting the race. The way he did it allowed Verstappen to use his tyre advantage 1-2 corners earlier.

May have given him half a tenth into T5 to dissuade the lunge.

Edited by TomNokoe, 03 January 2022 - 00:28.

[Tenmantaylor]

Roles reversed and I doubt Max let's it get past turn 5 without a collision.

And wins the title with a double dnf.

That fastest lap Max got in Qatar almost sealed the title for him.

[Bliman]

One trick Hamilton could've played was to leave it at late as possible before restarting the race. The way he did it allowed Verstappen to use his tyre advantage 1-2 corners earlier.

May have given him half a tenth into T5 to dissuade the lunge.

How? His tires would be even colder.

[MikeTekRacing]

He would be ahead at the corner but completely compromised for the next part. You say he had superior straight line speed but why is it that he then couldn't overtake Max when he had a long straight and slipstream?
I think that defending there would have made no difference. Now at least Max his line was also compromised. It is the traction that counted not the straight-line speed. If it was the straight line speed then he would overtaken Max on the straight and he couldn't do it even with full slipstream he only could have gone alongside.
So I really think you are incorrect.

That’s actually the point I was making - Not defending made sense IF (and a big one) Lewis optimized his line for exit. That means a late turn in and apex. He did not do that. He turned in normally, found Max there and had to open the steering making his corner exit poor.

So he neither defended nor ensured a good exit.

[prty]

I have no idea why you showed me this. The tracks are totally different. You cannot just compare something and say it fits.

I'm showing a single corner, not the whole track. It applies.

[Requiem84]

I'm showing a single corner, not the whole track. It applies.

 

You showed a corner with a comparable angle. Hard braking zone, apex and then all about the acceleration. So indeed, that was a good comparison. I think Alonso slightly slowed down Hamilton on the apex in that corner. Hamilton therefore couldn't use his tire grip advantage on acceleration. 

 

It was very very smart defending from Alonso there. 

[prty]

You showed a corner with a comparable angle. Hard braking zone, apex and then all about the acceleration. So indeed, that was a good comparison. I think Alonso slightly slowed down Hamilton on the apex in that corner. Hamilton therefore couldn't use his tire grip advantage on acceleration.

It was very very smart defending from Alonso there.

Exactly, and something that Hamilton could have at least attempted. But he didn't, was caught asleep. Still likely that he would have lost the position later in the lap, but this not trying at all is the point being discussed.

[Ivanhoe]

Everything about Lewis' defending in T5 AD has been said in 476 posts and counting. This thread has run it's course.