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#51 HP

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Posted 02 January 2022 - 00:20

The FIA announced they will make sure that if any team dominates technically, they will act quickly to level the field. The FIA learned from the last major rule changes that part. Many fans have their preferred driver, preferred team, however F1 should and arguably can not be suffering yet another steam roller from any team. If manufacturers wanting a steam roller, they can setup their own racing formula if they haven't already.

 

Lewis won the Constructor's Championship on his own in 2020, while Merc got more points than the 2nd and 3rd placed teams combined, and there were a good number of people questioning whether they would even bother watching 2021 as it had become too predictable.  I get why some Merc fans might want a repeat, but disagree it's what F1 needs.  I think the majority would be happy with another 2021, just without the various controversies (which I'm personally sceptical is possible, but we can hope).

IMO there was only one season with utter domination like 2020 worth watching. Prost vs. Senna in the MP4/4. However that season was an exception in many regards with all the technical changes and inventions. It was however a warning shot of what could be happening with manufacturer-backed teams. That danger manifested itself when the Ferrari steam rolloer started. Not that I minded it as a fan of the team and the driver at  that time. The FIA found ways to eventually even the competition. Same with Red Bull. However Ferrari and RBR weren't at their peak like the behemoth manufacturer Mercedes is.

 

As to the controversies. They were there and always will be there. There will always be a broad range of types of winners and losers. And then there is also the media who makes partially a living from all of those controversies. Some part of the media is good at creating controversies, where there wasn't any to find.

 

I don't mind another 1988, but unfortunately, I think the surroundings around F1 have changed too much for that to ever happening again. Imagine Hamilton vs. Verstappen both in Mercedes. Toto Wolffs head might get bald like it did for Ron Dennis..


Edited by HP, 02 January 2022 - 00:22.


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#52 kumo7

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Posted 02 January 2022 - 03:57

The FIA announced they will make sure that if any team dominates technically, they will act quickly to level the field. The FIA learned from the last major rule changes that part. Many fans have their preferred driver, preferred team, however F1 should and arguably can not be suffering yet another steam roller from any team. If manufacturers wanting a steam roller, they can setup their own racing formula if they haven't already.

 

IMO there was only one season with utter domination like 2020 worth watching. Prost vs. Senna in the MP4/4. However that season was an exception in many regards with all the technical changes and inventions. It was however a warning shot of what could be happening with manufacturer-backed teams. That danger manifested itself when the Ferrari steam rolloer started. Not that I minded it as a fan of the team and the driver at  that time. The FIA found ways to eventually even the competition. Same with Red Bull. However Ferrari and RBR weren't at their peak like the behemoth manufacturer Mercedes is.

 

As to the controversies. They were there and always will be there. There will always be a broad range of types of winners and losers. And then there is also the media who makes partially a living from all of those controversies. Some part of the media is good at creating controversies, where there wasn't any to find.

 

I don't mind another 1988, but unfortunately, I think the surroundings around F1 have changed too much for that to ever happening again. Imagine Hamilton vs. Verstappen both in Mercedes. Toto Wolffs head might get bald like it did for Ron Dennis..

 

So FIA might have done a goo work 2021. HAM missed the 8th title, and tht answers the question.

 

By the way, I am wondering why Allison, as talented as he is, had sidelined himself from the front line. Yes, he wanted more time for his family, but ...



#53 Chillimeister

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Posted 02 January 2022 - 10:10

I hope the Brazil PU performance is a sign of what they have in store for 2022

 

Well if the season is only 9 races long, they'll take a lot of stopping with their 3 PU allocation  :lol:



#54 AlexPrime

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Posted 02 January 2022 - 10:11

The FIA announced they will make sure that if any team dominates technically, they will act quickly to level the field. 

I hope so, but I think that only strict BoP rules like in SRO or BTCC can do the trick. I'm all for it.



#55 shure

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Posted 02 January 2022 - 12:51

The FIA announced they will make sure that if any team dominates technically, they will act quickly to level the field. The FIA learned from the last major rule changes that part. Many fans have their preferred driver, preferred team, however F1 should and arguably can not be suffering yet another steam roller from any team. If manufacturers wanting a steam roller, they can setup their own racing formula if they haven't already.

 

I'm wondering whether instead of having a major rule change every xx years they should instead do smaller, but still significant, ones, and give teams less notice of what they are.  I don't mean tell them on Jan 1st what the rules are, but a recurring theme seems to be that teams will stop developing current cars early in order to focus on the longer term, and that only increases the closer you are to a rule change.  Didn't Haas announce already in 2020 that they would do zero development for 2021 and instead focus on 2022?  And I'm willing to bet Merc did something similar.  If they were to do smaller changes, but only release details of those partway through the current season, then there might be less of an incentive to do nothing for this year's cars.  It won't affect cost, as those are capped anyway, and in any case no-one is going to invest tens of millions into a development path that may be scrapped within 12 months.

 

The above isn't a detailed proposal, in case that's not obvious!  But I don't think many people have an appetite for another Merc-type domination, which many credit to the head start they apparently had on the technology and the huge resources they poured into it, coupled with the extended rules stagnation (yes, I know there were some changes but the underlying development path was the same), while at the same time no-one wants to see another Honda-type scenario where teams have to take over half a decade just to catch up.  If there was a way to remove the incentive to think too long term, that might be a better option than trying to play whack-a-mole with every new development idea the teams come up with


Edited by shure, 02 January 2022 - 12:52.


#56 SpatialTech

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Posted 02 January 2022 - 13:00

I don’t like the anti-innovation stuff being touted by the FIA; for me, F1 is all about innovation, finding loopholes, exploiting gaps in the regulations and more. I love seeing a team like Braun win, I love the idea of the ground effects, of the fan that Murray brought in, the 6 wheels. Some work, others don’t, but if you’re stifling innovation then you’re stifling the sport. I deliberately don’t watch US series motorsport because these artificial additions for ‘the show’, much like I don’t watch FE for the same reasons. I have long loved F1 for it being the epitome of motorsport; it shouldn’t become a spec series, there’s plenty of those about.

What I wouldn’t mind, is if someone does get a grey area to exploit, the moment the FIA know, they publicise it, as in detailed instructions, drawings, etc that shows what’s being done. At least that way, any advantage would be removed and we’d still get the innovation.

#57 as65p

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Posted 02 January 2022 - 13:11

What I wouldn’t mind, is if someone does get a grey area to exploit, the moment the FIA know, they publicise it, as in detailed instructions, drawings, etc that shows what’s being done. At least that way, any advantage would be removed and we’d still get the innovation.

You do have a some concept of intelectual property, don't you? I will never be like that.



#58 shure

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Posted 02 January 2022 - 13:29

You do have a some concept of intelectual property, don't you? I will never be like that.

well in fairness a similar thing was proposed by I think Gerhard Berger (or was it Prost?  I thought I'd bookmarked it, but can't find it anymore) a few years back, as a means to combat both excessive spending and extended dominance by any team.  I think it was something on the lines of open source principles, after a one-year exclusive, with all designs registered with the FIA.  Wouldn't work for PU's, I think, as there's a lot of commercial IP there related to the real world, but much of what goes into an F1 car stays on an F1 car, and the majority of teams copy the bits they can see anyway, so think that has greater potential to be implemented



#59 Deeq

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Posted 02 January 2022 - 13:58

well in fairness a similar thing was proposed by I think Gerhard Berger (or was it Prost? I thought I'd bookmarked it, but can't find it anymore) a few years back, as a means to combat both excessive spending and extended dominance by any team. I think it was something on the lines of open source principles, after a one-year exclusive, with all designs registered with the FIA. Wouldn't work for PU's, I think, as there's a lot of commercial IP there related to the real world, but much of what goes into an F1 car stays on an F1 car, and the majority of teams copy the bits they can see anyway, so think that has greater potential to be implemented

I agree, the concept of IP is "fluid" in F1/sport. If they can visualy see they can copy with no problems.

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#60 as65p

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Posted 02 January 2022 - 14:13

well in fairness a similar thing was proposed by I think Gerhard Berger (or was it Prost?  I thought I'd bookmarked it, but can't find it anymore) a few years back, as a means to combat both excessive spending and extended dominance by any team.  I think it was something on the lines of open source principles, after a one-year exclusive, with all designs registered with the FIA.  Wouldn't work for PU's, I think, as there's a lot of commercial IP there related to the real world, but much of what goes into an F1 car stays on an F1 car, and the majority of teams copy the bits they can see anyway, so think that has greater potential to be implemented

Sure, it's accepted that everything visible is also copyable, always been like that. However, the buck stops somewhere, and drawings and other technical data is a whole different matter. Else the whole 2007 Ferrari/McLaren affair would be no affair at all, and there would be no need for gardening leaves and stuff. IOW, F1 ain't Open Source...  ;)



#61 SpatialTech

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Posted 02 January 2022 - 14:47

You do have a some concept of intelectual property, don't you? It will never be like that.

Intellectual Property? Of course I do, indeed: my wife was a corporate lawyer and I run a Data Engineering company. You do understand IP is shared constantly between teams when it suits both the teams and the FIA, don’t you? Next Concorde agreement just make it a specific condition. F1 isn’t a normal business, there is so much horse trading going on it’s laughable, mostly behind backs too. The largess shown to Honda was laughable, just to save their face, have another manufacturer in F1 and ensure there was some parity.

Edited by SpatialTech, 03 January 2022 - 09:54.


#62 SpatialTech

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Posted 02 January 2022 - 14:49

Sure, it's accepted that everything visible is also copyable, always been like that. However, the buck stops somewhere, and drawings and other technical data is a whole different matter. Else the whole 2007 Ferrari/McLaren affair would be no affair at all, and there would be no need for gardening leaves and stuff. IOW, F1 ain't Open Source...  ;)


Mercedes helped Honda with their engine, sharing IP. It’s not a big one. 2007 was very different as they had the details of the whole project, not just a wing, a gearbox. Teams also sell lots of parts to other teams, within guidelines

#63 SpatialTech

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Posted 02 January 2022 - 14:59

well in fairness a similar thing was proposed by I think Gerhard Berger (or was it Prost? I thought I'd bookmarked it, but can't find it anymore) a few years back, as a means to combat both excessive spending and extended dominance by any team. I think it was something on the lines of open source principles, after a one-year exclusive, with all designs registered with the FIA. Wouldn't work for PU's, I think, as there's a lot of commercial IP there related to the real world, but much of what goes into an F1 car stays on an F1 car, and the majority of teams copy the bits they can see anyway, so think that has greater potential to be implemented

I agree, not with engines, as the manufacturers are going to use some the tech in their businesses. It was more about when they find a grey area, a loophole. They get to use it, but it becomes open to the FIA and other competitors.

Got to be found first, so there’s still the chance the teams can take a good advantage out of it.

The term Gardening leave still makes me laugh, as whilst it’s a thing, it’s never worked; years ago I was placed on 6 months garden leave and just worked from home. It’s the same as the summer break; the idea someone isn’t actually working makes me laugh.

Edited by SpatialTech, 02 January 2022 - 15:07.


#64 jjcale

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Posted 03 January 2022 - 13:03

I’d love to see Hamilton won a championship against an equal opponent in an equal car , at least once before he walks.

 

Why is SLH constantly held to a standard that no other driver in history is held to??

 

F1 is a constructor's sport ... the drivers are (mostly) just jockeys.... and even then they are not "equal" to each other. 

 

Asking for "equal drivers" in "equal cars" is completely unrealistic (... and presumably youve watched enough F1 - and are capable of understanding what you are watching - to know this) .... yet that is the standard you want to see SLH held to.... :confused:   



#65 shure

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Posted 03 January 2022 - 13:12

Why is SLH constantly held to a standard that no other driver in history is held to??

 

F1 is a constructor's sport ... the drivers are (mostly) just jockeys.... and even then they are not "equal" to each other. 

 

Asking for "equal drivers" in "equal cars" is completely unrealistic (... and presumably youve watched enough F1 - and are capable of understanding what you are watching - to know this) .... yet that is the standard you want to see SLH held to.... :confused:   

drivers are held to this standard all the time.  It's the same stick people tend to beat Schumacher with, Lew's not unique in that regard.  

 

Agree that it's probably unrealistic, but it's not unusual to want to have an equal battle, which to be fair we did for the most part this year



#66 Dhillon

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Posted 03 January 2022 - 13:21

Why is SLH constantly held to a standard that no other driver in history is held to??

F1 is a constructor's sport ... the drivers are (mostly) just jockeys.... and even then they are not "equal" to each other.

Alonso said his second championship was special as it was against Schumacher.

I just like to see Hamilton winning agains same level driver in same level car w/o intra team politics.

Edited by Dhillon, 03 January 2022 - 13:22.


#67 SpatialTech

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Posted 03 January 2022 - 13:25

drivers are held to this standard all the time. It's the same stick people tend to beat Schumacher with, Lew's not unique in that regard.

Agree that it's probably unrealistic, but it's not unusual to want to have an equal battle, which to be fair we did for the most part this year

I think it’s irrefutable that 44 gets far more stick than any other driver in F1 has, including MS. Senna was a god, that happened to drive one of the best cars ever produced. Same for MS in parts at his time at Ferrari. Mansell drove possibly the best car to win a WDC too. If Brawn had the moolah, Button would have absolutely dominated 2009. Show me a WDC and I’ll show you the car advantage he’s had 99% of the time. I’d say the close racing in a lot of the 80’s left me looking at which was the best car and being confused, but not towards the latter part. Rosberg’s car is the only car I think that wasn’t the quickest, best car to win a WDC back in the day, but my memory fades.

As for equal cars and equal drivers, I read Williams say sometime in his life, that if you chucked any competent F1 driver in a car, and they’ll lap within .5 of each other. That’s why they paid for the ones that were at the top of that .5 gap and it’s those who make the difference. As an aside, and OT, the Renault boss (Fauvre?) who provided the V10’s for Williams during what I think was Newey’s heyday stated he thought Mansell was the quickest of any driver he had, including Prost and Senna. He said if he went out and did two qualifying laps, and one was slower, you knew it was the car.

Edited by SpatialTech, 03 January 2022 - 13:27.


#68 SpatialTech

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Posted 03 January 2022 - 13:25

Alonso said his second championship was special as it was against Schumacher.
I just like to see Hamilton winning agains same level driver in same level car w/o intra team politics.

So 11 was treated w/o intra-team politics this season, as an equal to 33?

Edited by SpatialTech, 03 January 2022 - 13:25.


#69 shure

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Posted 03 January 2022 - 14:37

I think it’s irrefutable that 44 gets far more stick than any other driver in F1 has, including MS. Senna was a god, that happened to drive one of the best cars ever produced. Same for MS in parts at his time at Ferrari. Mansell drove possibly the best car to win a WDC too. If Brawn had the moolah, Button would have absolutely dominated 2009. Show me a WDC and I’ll show you the car advantage he’s had 99% of the time. I’d say the close racing in a lot of the 80’s left me looking at which was the best car and being confused, but not towards the latter part. Rosberg’s car is the only car I think that wasn’t the quickest, best car to win a WDC back in the day, but my memory fades.

As for equal cars and equal drivers, I read Williams say sometime in his life, that if you chucked any competent F1 driver in a car, and they’ll lap within .5 of each other. That’s why they paid for the ones that were at the top of that .5 gap and it’s those who make the difference. As an aside, and OT, the Renault boss (Fauvre?) who provided the V10’s for Williams during what I think was Newey’s heyday stated he thought Mansell was the quickest of any driver he had, including Prost and Senna. He said if he went out and did two qualifying laps, and one was slower, you knew it was the car.

I did write an extensive answer to this, but frustratingly Chrome crashed and I lost it all, sigh.  You would have been amazed at the pithy insights and irrefutable arguments, but you'll just have to take my word for it  :)

 

The abridged version is that Schumacher did and still does get an awful lot of stick.  Many people claim his success was all down to the car and the fact he had a team that supported him 100%, that he never had a team mate worthy of the name, and that he only had success because all the other drivers were rubbish (paraphrasing here).  Most of these are either from people with very short memories, or ones who never actually saw him race in his prime, but regardless he still comes under fire for the above even now, and these excuses are inevitably rolled out whenever comparisons with Hamilton are made.

 

The internet has changed things, too.  Back in the day there simply wasn't a medium to discuss and compare drivers like we do now, and every driver act wasn't analysed and discussed to within an inch of its life.  Drivers are more accessible than ever before, and with that exposure comes a lot more commentary.  But Vettel used to get a lot of flack, and his name was barely mentioned in his WDC years without the "Newey rocket ship" tag attached.  I think many people thought that was his middle name.  Again, his success coincided with greater forum activity and accessibility, so debates raged on a daily basis.  Hamilton, too, is enjoying success when every man and his dog has internet access, and with success, particularly prolonged success, comes inevitable discussion.

 

I do recall Mansell in particular getting extensive criticism, however, even allowing for the lack of readily available medium at the time.  He didn't help himself with his "me against the world" attitude, though, and nobody really likes it when a successful person claims adversity, especially when it's obvious to everyone else that they have enjoyed a big advantage.  Even when he'd lapped everybody else by the way he talked in the post race interview he was valiantly battling the odds and holding the car together with hastily cobbled together rubber bands etc, winning in spite of the car.  It tended to wind a lot of people up, so they looked at ways to bring him down to earth again.  Credit was almost invariably exclusively his, in his eyes, and he certainly struggled with the concept of winning graciously.

 

I think the greater the success, the greater the chances that people will find something to criticise.  Despite what I said about Mansell, only partially tongue in cheek, it really started in a big way with Schumacher, probably because people were looking for ways to explain away the almost unprecedented success he had.  The next dominant driver was Vettel, and he got lots of negative press during his WDC years, and then of course we have Hamilton, who has enjoyed even greater success, so he naturally becomes the next target.

 

And, similar to Mansell, he attracts criticism at least in part by his own attitude and actions.  If you style yourself as fighting against the odds, then it invites criticism, especially when those odds aren't all that visible to people.  He gets involved in noble causes, which is admirable, but sometimes the way he does can give the impression at least that self publicity is the aim.  That may be unfair, but it is part of his image and certainly one reason why he is a target for some.  But in all honesty I don't recall him attracting anywhere near as much negative attention before his Merc days, aside from the obvious things like Liegate, which is largely self-inflicted anyway.  Continued success will always attract scrutiny, that's all, and I don't see him as being excessively put-upon.

 

Regarding Williams, Frank was notorious for being fairly dismissive about drivers and what they brought to the table.  He was famous for not paying much, comparatively speaking, and for firmly believing the car was the star.  I'm not sure I'd fully agree with him, tbh, because most of the giants were giants precisely because they stood head and shoulders above even their team mates, and in any event in those days sizeable gaps were not that uncommon.  Of course they need a good car to be able to do anything, which is why Alonso isn't nipping at Hamilton's heels just now, but we can see from the difference between eg Hamilton and Bottas, and Max and Perez, just what a top driver can do, given the opportunity.  

 

I expect that Merc will still be top next year, and would be hugely surprised if they weren't at least extremely competitive.  I hope we don't go back to peak Merc, because I've really enjoyed this season for the most part and I'd hate to go back to another processional one.  And although I've little doubt that Hamilton, like most drivers, would enjoy having the undisputed best car, as long as it's good enough I think his intensely competitive nature will give him the motivation to prove himself again.  He needs a realistic chance of winning to deliver his best performances, IMO, but if he feels it's there he will fight all the way



#70 SpatialTech

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Posted 03 January 2022 - 14:47

I did write an extensive answer to this, but frustratingly Chrome crashed and I lost it all, sigh. You would have been amazed at the pithy insights and irrefutable arguments, but you'll just have to take my word for it :)

The abridged version is that Schumacher did and still does get an awful lot of stick. Many people claim his success was all down to the car and the fact he had a team that supported him 100%, that he never had a team mate worthy of the name, and that he only had success because all the other drivers were rubbish (paraphrasing here). Most of these are either from people with very short memories, or ones who never actually saw him race in his prime, but regardless he still comes under fire for the above even now, and these excuses are inevitably rolled out whenever comparisons with Hamilton are made.

The internet has changed things, too. Back in the day there simply wasn't a medium to discuss and compare drivers like we do now, and every driver act wasn't analysed and discussed to within an inch of its life. Drivers are more accessible than ever before, and with that exposure comes a lot more commentary. But Vettel used to get a lot of flack, and his name was barely mentioned in his WDC years without the "Newey rocket ship" tag attached. I think many people thought that was his middle name. Again, his success coincided with greater forum activity and accessibility, so debates raged on a daily basis. Hamilton, too, is enjoying success when every man and his dog has internet access, and with success, particularly prolonged success, comes inevitable discussion.

I do recall Mansell in particular getting extensive criticism, however, even allowing for the lack of readily available medium at the time. He didn't help himself with his "me against the world" attitude, though, and nobody really likes it when a successful person claims adversity, especially when it's obvious to everyone else that they have enjoyed a big advantage. Even when he'd lapped everybody else by the way he talked in the post race interview he was valiantly battling the odds and holding the car together with hastily cobbled together rubber bands etc, winning in spite of the car. It tended to wind a lot of people up, so they looked at ways to bring him down to earth again. Credit was almost invariably exclusively his, in his eyes, and he certainly struggled with the concept of winning graciously.

I think the greater the success, the greater the chances that people will find something to criticise. Despite what I said about Mansell, only partially tongue in cheek, it really started in a big way with Schumacher, probably because people were looking for ways to explain away the almost unprecedented success he had. The next dominant driver was Vettel, and he got lots of negative press during his WDC years, and then of course we have Hamilton, who has enjoyed even greater success, so he naturally becomes the next target.

And, similar to Mansell, he attracts criticism at least in part by his own attitude and actions. If you style yourself as fighting against the odds, then it invites criticism, especially when those odds aren't all that visible to people. He gets involved in noble causes, which is admirable, but sometimes the way he does can give the impression at least that self publicity is the aim. That may be unfair, but it is part of his image and certainly one reason why he is a target for some. But in all honesty I don't recall him attracting anywhere near as much negative attention before his Merc days, aside from the obvious things like Liegate, which is largely self-inflicted anyway. Continued success will always attract scrutiny, that's all, and I don't see him as being excessively put-upon.

Regarding Williams, Frank was notorious for being fairly dismissive about drivers and what they brought to the table. He was famous for not paying much, comparatively speaking, and for firmly believing the car was the star. I'm not sure I'd fully agree with him, tbh, because most of the giants were giants precisely because they stood head and shoulders above even their team mates, and in any event in those days sizeable gaps were not that uncommon. Of course they need a good car to be able to do anything, which is why Alonso isn't nipping at Hamilton's heels just now, but we can see from the difference between eg Hamilton and Bottas, and Max and Perez, just what a top driver can do, given the opportunity.

I expect that Merc will still be top next year, and would be hugely surprised if they weren't at least extremely competitive. I hope we don't go back to peak Merc, because I've really enjoyed this season for the most part and I'd hate to go back to another processional one. And although I've little doubt that Hamilton, like most drivers, would enjoy having the undisputed best car, as long as it's good enough I think his intensely competitive nature will give him the motivation to prove himself again. He needs a realistic chance of winning to deliver his best performances, IMO, but if he feels it's there he will fight all the way

Great post. I do think there’s a tall poppy syndrome in a lot of this, but I would say Hamilton gets more than most, and whilst it’s probably been said before, there’s a bad human trait that’s at the bottom of some of it, and people do move onto the next victim quite readily.

All the best drivers want and inevitably get the best drives. I’ve never begrudged any of them the best cars as they all gravitate to them, just because of primarily what Williams said; in a sport decided by 1/10ths of seconds, you’re going to want a car that gives you that, and a driver too; if they’re all within that amount, then it’s an easy fix to give your car: lump the best drivers in them.

No argument with your post tho, cheers.

Edited by SpatialTech, 03 January 2022 - 15:27.


#71 Singularity

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Posted 03 January 2022 - 16:27

 Merc did very little with their cat 2021, not a token spent. All they did was to shuffle the engines a bit so they could take a bit more power out (I think they have a knob hidden somewhere that goes to 11 and before Brazil its was set at 7). Instead they have made sure their dominance will not end this year. Nobody have the resources of Mercedes and they'll peak when the want to.