2181 replies to this topic

[Mohican]

I must say, it is all due as Audi wanted a easy ride into Formula One, they might not be as dependent as Ferrari on Formula One business, they are not as ambitious as TOYOTA with Akio, they are not as proud as Honda on their Soichiro Assets, no, Audi is a upper middle car maker for which going on DTM or touring car is the just fit, even Le Mans was a bit of a stretch.
Terrible tho, it once was the Auto Union leading the pack.

Le Mans was a bit of a stretch, was it ? And how many times did they win it, again ?

[JRodrigues]

Le Mans was a bit of a stretch, was it ? And how many times did they win it, again ?

 

Le Mans was as much a stretch as it was WRC... and touring cars... and GT3... and Dakar... and Formula E. And they won it all.

[William Hunt]

Boy do I miss the epic Audi Quattro Rally Group B car, with the likes of Walter Röhrl, Michelle Mouton, Hannu Mikkola driving it. Röhrl actually first beat them to the world title in 1982 in an Opel, before he joined them. At the time it was said that the Audi Quattro and it's rally success saved Audi (which back when that car was launched was not as big a manufacturer as it is today) saved Audi from extinction, just like they say that the Peugeot 205 Group B rally car's success saved Peugeot who were going through a very difficult time before the 205 came.

[Clatter]

You only know what Andretti told you about that deal; ask anybody at Sauber and you will hear different.
Anyway, a long time ago.

 

Well I don't have access to anyone at Sauber, so who have you talked to, and what have they told you?

[loki]

You only know what Andretti told you about that deal; ask anybody at Sauber and you will hear different.
Anyway, a long time ago.

He didn’t tell me.  He told several media outlets.  You’re implying he’s being untruthful.  No one from Sauber has said anything publicly.   If you have something concrete let’s hear it.  Were Rausing to think Andretti misrepresented the deal he’d have said as such.

[kumo7]

Le Mans was a bit of a stretch, was it ? And how many times did they win it, again ?

I know. And we all know that Audi is coming to race on the F1 grid, making investments and preparing too take over the Sauber GP. So far this is the public statement, yet there are these stories saying that Audi is letting pro formula one employees go. Audi is not coming to F1, that never ends.
At some point, we start to think it will not. The company had decided to steer away from F1. It is all logical to think about it, that Audi isn’t coming, that F1 isn’t Audi’s target.

Edited by kumo7, 24 February 2024 - 13:10.

[DeKnyff]

Le Mans was as much a stretch as it was WRC... and touring cars... and GT3... and Dakar... and Formula E. And they won it all.

 

Boy do I miss the epic Audi Quattro Rally Group B car, with the likes of Walter Röhrl, Michelle Mouton, Hannu Mikkola driving it. Röhrl actually first beat them to the world title in 1982 in an Opel, before he joined them. At the time it was said that the Audi Quattro and it's rally success saved Audi (which back when that car was launched was not as big a manufacturer as it is today) saved Audi from extinction, just like they say that the Peugeot 205 Group B rally car's success saved Peugeot who were going through a very difficult time before the 205 came.

 

Not to speak about the Auto Union heritage from prewar years.

[Mohican]

He didn’t tell me. He told several media outlets. You’re implying he’s being untruthful. No one from Sauber has said anything publicly. If you have something concrete let’s hear it. Were Rausing to think Andretti misrepresented the deal he’d have said as such.

Maybe Rausing just prefers not to talk to the press as distinct from Andretti. There is no particular reason to accept one version as gospel just because it is not contradicted in public.

I have clearly heard that the “control issues” were a simple case of Andretti being unwilling to give certain assurances re keeping the team in Hinwil, following which talks terminated.

[kumo7]

Andretti said many times that it want both American and British base, Switzerland is not GB.

[pdac]

Andretti said many times that it want both American and British base, Switzerland is not GB.

 

Andretti must already realise that you can't always get what you want (but you can get what you need, apparently).

[kumo7]

Andretti must already realise that you can't always get what you want (but you can get what you need, apparently).

That is for the future. It was about the past. Hinwil not give up the right to earn money, even if they ‘sell’ the team. So that is not really something. Haas or RB is a better choice, perhaps.

[loki]

Maybe Rausing just prefers not to talk to the press as distinct from Andretti. There is no particular reason to accept one version as gospel just because it is not contradicted in public.

I have clearly heard that the “control issues” were a simple case of Andretti being unwilling to give certain assurances re keeping the team in Hinwil, following which talks terminated.

That’s the very definition of retaining outsized control based on any sort of equity stake.  

[Mohican]

That’s the very definition of retaining outsized control based on any sort of equity stake.  

 

I think it is quite normal to include conditions for a transaction. If the buyer doesn't accept them, there is no agreement. Simple as that.

Andretti's mistake was in talking widely to the media beforehand, giving everybody the impression that the deal was as good as done when it clearly was not.

 

Anyway, a long time ago now.

[loki]

I think it is quite normal to include conditions for a transaction. If the buyer doesn't accept them, there is no agreement. Simple as that.

Andretti's mistake was in talking widely to the media beforehand, giving everybody the impression that the deal was as good as done when it clearly was not.

 

Anyway, a long time ago now.

Dictating the use of the assets after purchase is far from a normal transaction.   The mistake was dealing with someone that tossed a deal breaker into it late in the negotiations.  The terms and timing of the ask shows it wasn’t a good faith effort on the part of Finn Rausing.  

[Wuzak]

Dictating the use of the assets after purchase is far from a normal transaction. 

 

Surely just another condition in the sales agreement?

 

Hence why Toro Rosso/Alpha Tauri/Racing Bulls are still based in Faenza and haven't moved to the UK.

[Mohican]

Dictating the use of the assets after purchase is far from a normal transaction.   The mistake was dealing with someone that tossed a deal breaker into it late in the negotiations.  The terms and timing of the ask shows it wasn’t a good faith effort on the part of Finn Rausing.  

 

 

Not a question of "dictating" anything, just a condition precedent to agreement - and no agreement was reached. Happens every day.

And you (nor I) have no idea about the timing of anything; and you certainly have no reason to call "good faith" into question.

[Mohican]

Was it "good faith" by Andretti to tell everybody that the transaction was nearly done, when it obviously was not.

You should be more prudent with your characterisations.

[loki]

Surely just another condition in the sales agreement?

 

Hence why Toro Rosso/Alpha Tauri/Racing Bulls are still based in Faenza and haven't moved to the UK.

 

 

Not a question of "dictating" anything, just a condition precedent to agreement - and no agreement was reached. Happens every day.

And you (nor I) have no idea about the timing of anything; and you certainly have no reason to call "good faith" into question.

A condition of the sale is dictating what happens during the sale.  It’s what dictating means, to control or decisively effect.

[kumo7]

Well, a well founded Swiss F1 teams does have some hundreds of personeel all resides in Switzerland or close to, that is given. I mean besides its facilities. Unless a new owner releases all contracts, all members must move to a new location, if not, that is not an usual situation in the region such as Europe, where moving is not a as easy as in the United States. Should this new owner decide to release all personnel, then the team would be as good as a new team in terms of knowledge. What would this new owner do with facilities such as carbon oven and fine machines and so forth?

Mateshits did not move Faenza base when he bought the Minardi team.

Andretti might have enough funds to deal with all the needs. But still, there must have one scenarios which is the location remain as is, and that will be the case if it were to happen. I say it all good for the first negotiation. If there might be a second one, that is the question.

[ARTGP]

It seems significant that Audi will now complete a 100% takeover of Sauber.  They could rename it if they wanted. 

 

 

 

However, those rumours have now been largely dispelled. Having taken over 25% of Sauber in early 2023, it is now believed that Audi will complete its transaction with Sauber owner Finn Rausing. While a 75% stake was initially circulated, Bild and Bloomberg report that Audi will realise a 100% takeover.

Audi set to complete Sauber F1 takeover (motorsport.com)

Edited by ARTGP, 06 March 2024 - 18:21.

[Nathan]

Well, a well founded Swiss F1 teams does have some hundreds of personeel all resides in Switzerland or close to, that is given. I mean besides its facilities. Unless a new owner releases all contracts

 

The cost to perform redundancies in Europe is astronomical.  It's the main financial reason why Honda underwrote a good portion of Brawn's 2009 budget, otherwise a similar amount would have went to severance and winding up costs.

Edited by Nathan, 06 March 2024 - 18:40.

[JRodrigues]

It seems significant that Audi will now complete a 100% takeover of Sauber.  They could rename it if they wanted. 

 

Audi set to complete Sauber F1 takeover (motorsport.com)

 

Not the news this forum was waiting for...   

[Beri]

 

While a 75% stake was initially circulated, Bild and Bloomberg report that Audi will realise a 100% takeover.

 

Thats significant and telling.

[kumo7]

The cost to perform redundancies in Europe is astronomical.  It's the main financial reason why Honda underwrote a good portion of Brawn's 2009 budget, otherwise a similar amount would have went to severance and winding up costs.

 

This is exactly the reason why Andretti will not choose to take Sauber over. I recall Honda wrote 100 million USD for Brawn to run the squad, and the year later Brawn sold itself to Mercedes. 100 million now for the American investor are not such a problem,.. this I have no idea.

 

 

Not the news this forum was waiting for...   

 

After so many talks about Audi not coming, I think Audi got rid of all the doubts in the company. So now they decided to do it. I think it might the show on the track. 

[William Hunt]

The cost to perform redundancies in Europe is astronomical.  It's the main financial reason why Honda underwrote a good portion of Brawn's 2009 budget, otherwise a similar amount would have went to severance and winding up costs.

 

It is not astronomical at all, in particular not for such large companies, who make litterally billions of profit every year. It is the correct cost for making someone jobless (which can even lead to depression or families breaking up if the person doesn't find a new job quickly) and if that "cost" was not there, then people could be fired at any time without proper compensation, making them very vulnerable. It is the correct cost, if outside the EU it is cheaper than it means the cost to fire people is far too low outside the EU.

Edited by William Hunt, 07 March 2024 - 14:40.

[Nathan]

Ease the dogs, I just used the word astronomical   Obviously it is a justifiable "cost" and legal requirement.

Edited by Nathan, 07 March 2024 - 15:49.

[William Hunt]

Not the news this forum was waiting for...   

 

Well I for sure want the name Sauber to remain. I'm fine with Sauber Audi (or Audi Sauber) for example.

[Mohican]

SAUDI ?

[FirstnameLastname]

SAUDI ?

Green and white livery

[pdac]

Ease the dogs, I just used the word astronomical   Obviously it is a justifiable "cost" and legal requirement.

 

From my experience (being made redundant in the UK), the costs can be large or not so. It largely depends on how quickly you want to do things. I got the impression that people in the UK had much longer notice periods than would be common in, say, the US (where the company that took us over and made us redundant hailed from). In the UK 4 weeks is typical for a lot, 6 weeks for more senior people. We had one employee who was on 12 months notice. Also there's holiday (vacation) entitlement. If a company give sufficient notice, then the costs will be kept low. But if they want to push it through fast, then they will have to top up the statutory payments with negotiated supplements. In my case, the company (reluctantly and only as a result of us employees laying down the law) walked a middle ground and paid us all quite a bit above the statutory amount. But because they were closing the office completely, that was probably offset by savings on rental/lease of the office space.

Edited by pdac, 07 March 2024 - 21:46.

[Mohican]

Audi confirms 100% takeover of Sauber today.

[jcbc3]

Yes

 

https://www.autospor...1-ceo/10584832/