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Steve Nichols Interview


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#101 PayasYouRace

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Posted 09 January 2022 - 21:29

Pretty nasty but it was how it was done. Within a couple of years of this picture the practice of measuring and metering fuel by weight had become universal and cars were filled via closed lightbulb shaped containers filled and emptied via a dry break Avery Hardoll style coupling. Stand it upside down on scales and add fuel via a funnel plugged onto the dry break, then stand it upright and plug it onto the car and admit air into the “bulb” via a pushbutton breather valve. Of course nowadays they use the dedicated bowsers.

 

My main concerns are the fact that nobody is wearing any sort of PPE while this is going on, and Alain is actually strapped into the car. Terrifying!

 

On a more pertinent note, and you might have the inside knowledge to answer, why did McLaren take so long to move from the male-moulded chassis with the separate fibreglass one piece bodywork over the top to female-moulded chassis where the tub itself forms the outer skin?

 

For example, Williams were already using the more modern chassis construction in 1986.

 

williams-fw11-setup.jpg

 

But we were seeing McLarens with their tops off in the pits until the early 90s.



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#102 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 09 January 2022 - 21:42

It’s a good question and I don’t know the answer. I think Gustav Brunner was the first to do a female mould carbon tub with no top body, on his ATS D6 BMW in 83 so it took McLaren a long time to change. It is interesting that Neil Oatley, who was closely involved with the design of the Beatrice Lolas of 85 and 86 still kept the “traditional” McLaren construction for the MP4/5 of 1989

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 09 January 2022 - 21:44.


#103 jcbc3

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Posted 09 January 2022 - 22:01

... I think Gustav Brunner was the first to do a female mould carbon tub with no top body, on his ATS D6 BMW in 83 ...

 

In the mist of my failing memory, I remember an pretty long article in a German magazine (Rallye Racing or Sport Auto) from back then, where they showed and explained the ATS. I was enthralled by the beauty of the car and the sheer 'futuristicness' of it. 



#104 ensign14

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Posted 09 January 2022 - 23:46

There was certainly an article in Grand Prix International about the ATS with Kevlar body, the one thing I recall is that it said they could apply the decals straight to it without having to add the paint layer first.



#105 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 10 January 2022 - 16:17

I doubt it was kevlar - pretty nasty stuff to work with and yellow coloured so not suitable for use “naked” - much more likely to be carbon which is stiffer, easier to cut and drill, more durable and of course black. In fact these days there is a return to that idea of leaving the carbon surfaces uncovered for the black elements of livery. No point in putting black wrap onto black carbon, especially as one can achieve a decent finish out of the mould. As the saying goes, “they’ll never see it from the stands at 200 miles an hour”. As Kayemod can remind us, none of this is all that new - the gfrp panels made by Specialised Mouldings in the Sixties used a pigmented gel coat which didn’t need painting.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 10 January 2022 - 17:35.


#106 jcbc3

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Posted 10 January 2022 - 19:02

I think it's pretty clear on this pic, that the black is in fact the carbontub:

 

Ge3x4nvl.jpg



#107 stuartbrs

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Posted 11 January 2022 - 07:51

That ATS is gorgeous, from an aesthetics point of view. 



#108 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 11 January 2022 - 08:21

But the really clever bit can’t be seen. On the first tub Manfred’s seat back moulding was actually incorporated into the tooling.  So he sat directly into the tub with just the odd bit of sponge to aid comfort.  

Absolutely brilliant, but as Gustav told me it also meant practically that no one else could drive the car…..

So the next tub had a conventional seat void.   



#109 Michael Ferner

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Posted 11 January 2022 - 10:09

The tailor-fit racing car... exclusivity up the bazoo!



#110 BRG

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Posted 11 January 2022 - 10:47

The tailor-fit racing car... exclusivity up the bazoo!

"You can't sack me!  I'm the only one that fits into the car!"



#111 Michael Ferner

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Posted 11 January 2022 - 10:50

... that's why they invented plastic bum surgery!



#112 Obster

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Posted 11 January 2022 - 18:21

I thought the Gustav Brunner tub was just a fantastic idea.

I remember reading that McLaren kept removable bodywork

in order to be able to alter the aero if necessary.



#113 TennisUK

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Posted 11 January 2022 - 21:20

It’s a good question and I don’t know the answer. I think Gustav Brunner was the first to do a female mould carbon tub with no top body, on his ATS D6 BMW in 83 so it took McLaren a long time to change. It is interesting that Neil Oatley, who was closely involved with the design of the Beatrice Lolas of 85 and 86 still kept the “traditional” McLaren construction for the MP4/5 of 1989

as did John Barnard when he moved to Ferrari.

#114 kayemod

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Posted 12 January 2022 - 17:12

I doubt it was kevlar - pretty nasty stuff to work with and yellow coloured so not suitable for use “naked” - much more likely to be carbon which is stiffer, easier to cut and drill, more durable and of course black. In fact these days there is a return to that idea of leaving the carbon surfaces uncovered for the black elements of livery. No point in putting black wrap onto black carbon, especially as one can achieve a decent finish out of the mould. As the saying goes, “they’ll never see it from the stands at 200 miles an hour”. As Kayemod can remind us, none of this is all that new - the gfrp panels made by Specialised Mouldings in the Sixties used a pigmented gel coat which didn’t need painting.

I've only just noticed Nigel's namecheck in his post, so in the hope that it will help others to understand a few mysteries, here's a little clarity on composite structures. All of these are essentially cured resin structures reinforced by strengthening fibres of various kinds, usually catalyst-cured polyester with glass strengthening in earlier times, the glass took the form of glass fibres, either in the form of random oriented mat or woven glass cloth, or a combination of the two. The name 'Fibreglass' is actually the Manufacturer's brand name, but it's the word most frequently used, much in the same way that almost all vacuum cleaners are referred to as 'Hoovers'. Things have moved on, and nowadays at higher levels of the sport, structures or mouldings are most often heat cured polyepoxide or epoxy resin, reinforced by impregnated carbon or Kevlar fibres. Each of these reinforcing mediums have their own advantages and disadvantages. Glass is by far the most user friendly, and many one-off and limited production mouldings have been produced by semi skilled enthusiasts in their garages, as Barry Boor for one could confirm. Carbon and Kevlar reinforcements are in a wholly different league, both require heat curing, this necessitates an oven or autoclave, which adds hugely to the cost. Also, those materials are expensive, far more than glass, with Kevlar usually somewhat cheaper than carbon fibre, but it brings problems that are all its own.

 

As Nigel says, Kevlar, also a registered brand name, is not the nicest stuff to work with. The dry woven material demands special cutting shears, normal ones are useless, and it's the same with drills etc for the cured mouldings. Advantages when used in race car monocoques or bodywork, is that the stuff possesses very good impact and abrasion resistance and it can save weight in comparison with equivalent glass or carbon structures. The main disadvantages are that exposed fibres absorb water, and mouldings have poor resistance to sunlight, UV light  in particular, so paint or some other protective coating is essential. It's perhaps most often encountered as lightweight armour, stab and bulletproof clothing, and cut-proof gloves for butchers and the like. The only Kevlar reinforced epoxy bodywork I've had much experience with was made years ago for the Gulf Mirage GR7, and possibly the GR8 as well. The manufacturing process encountered numerous problems, and because of the susceptibility to UV damage, the cars had to be painted in their usual zenith blue/tangerine colours. The aim had been weight saving, but I doubt if there was any significant benefit overall, and the costs were huge.

 

Carbon is currently the most expensive type of fibre reinforcement, but it is the now most frequently encountered in motor sport generally, especially bodywork and monocoques. Sunlight and UV don't bother it much, and bare mouldings can look quite attractive in their own right. Some disadvantages are that metals in contact can corrode, but on a weight for weight basis, carbon has the highest compressive and tensile strength, is the most rigid, and has a low coefficient of thermal expansion. Unlike Kevlar, carbon is sometimes being used in road cars, both for lightweight body parts and interior and exterior embellishment, possibly partly as an excuse for the Manufacturer to charge more, but my last road car, an Alfa Giulia, had a carbon fibre reinforced prop shaft, so carbon is not just a pretty face.

 

Thread drift I suppose, a TNF speciality, but don't you just love it?

 

PS, Apologies for describing Barry Boor as "semi-skilled". He and the rest of his bunch should have got a Mention in Dispatches at the very least.


Edited by kayemod, 12 January 2022 - 23:09.


#115 chr1s

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Posted 12 January 2022 - 22:29

For some reason i had it in my head that the cockpit surrounds on later M23s were made of Kevlar? Or did i just imagine it!



#116 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 12 January 2022 - 23:11

For some reason i had it in my head that the cockpit surrounds on later M23s were made of Kevlar? Or did i just imagine it!

Yes, this is correct. This was done for the 1976 season. The nose, cockpit surround and airbox (both the tall and low versions) were made out of kevlar. This was a significant weight saving over the woven glass mat GFRP used previously. This, plus the weight saving of ditching the onboard electric starter and introducing the air starter, plus the re-engineering of the gearbox to make it a 6-speed all contributed to keeping the M23, at that point entering its fourth season, competitive.

I was 17 at the time. My dad was works manager at McLaren in Colnbrook, and I would spend my school holidays, weekends and evenings there doing odd jobs. One of these was helping flat and polish bodywork. The “rocket red” dayglo paint used by McLaren faded in bright sunlight and so needed regular stripping and repainting. That is how come I know what a bugger kevlar can be - if you flatted the paint too much and got through the surface of the kevlar it would become “wooly” and need repair before you could respray it. A real hassle.

McLaren were always pretty much at the leading edge on the use of composite materials, even going back as far as the use of mallite (aluminium sandwich, balsa wood core) in the M2B. The M23 used glass fibre skinned, nomex honeycomb cored, rear wing end plates at the end of the 76 season (the ones you see in photos with a white border), and of course that was the year they were also developing the M26 which included aluminium honeycomb chassis panels plus glass/nomex sandwich construction cockpit sides. These were cured in a large oven right in the middle of the workshop at Colnbrook. Not an autoclave (pressurised oven) in the mid 70s but vacuum bagged to assist with consolidating the component in the mould.

Sorry for making the thread drift even worse!

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 12 January 2022 - 23:54.


#117 john aston

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Posted 13 January 2022 - 07:08

To make it even worse , maybe you can help with an issue that has long intrigued me?  Much was made in period of the ground breaking use of carbon fibre in the MP4/1 , and  some press copy got very breathless about the application of this wondrous,  space- age material for racing cars. That rather baffled me  - I am a keen fly fisherman and had been using carbon fibre rods for several years  before the MP4/1 appeared, starting with  the Hardy Farnborough - named after the place  carbon fibre was invented I think ?  It was expensive , but a revelation after glass fibre (heavy , slow in action  and recovery ) and cane (don't ask ) . 

 

A fly rod is a very different animal to an F1 car but it is far from simple , with issues such as strength, speed of recovery and taper all crucial . So how come it took F1 so long  to use the stuff ? In the Barnard biography, carbon was hailed as the massive breakthrough , JB as some sort of  visionary,  but all I thought was 'What took you so long, guys  ? Don't you even read Trout and Salmon magazine ?   



#118 SamoanAttorney

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Posted 13 January 2022 - 07:53

These posts are evidence of why I value this forum above others. People who know what they are talking about doing so in a respectful manner, the complete opposite of social media. Long may it continue and thanks.



#119 stuartbrs

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Posted 13 January 2022 - 09:08

I got brave and tackled a number of Carbon projects on my E30 M3 (Replica) race car. I did all the guards, door cards, and a heap of little bits and pieces in CF an had a ball doing it. Its just a wet layup and the biggest part I made was the bonnet which came in at around 3.8kg including the underside, compared to 17kg for the steel one. I know exactly what Nigel means with the Kevlar going furry. I used a bit of Kevlar on the inside of the guards in case the wheels ever rubbed and its impossible to sand back, and ultra difficult to cut as well. I ended up using a bit on the floor and I would like to put a Kevlar panel inside the door at some point. 

 

Whilst no where near the complexity of a tub, making smaller parts from Carbon is well within reach of the home garage race car builder. Here is a great video done by Malcolm Oastler on doing a CF diffuser for his hill climb car, itself a fascinating series on his youtube channel, full of awesome tips and tricks and design principles. 

 

https://youtu.be/DaVGVijqkRQ



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#120 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 13 January 2022 - 11:32

. So how come it took F1 so long  to use the stuff ? In the Barnard biography, carbon was hailed as the massive breakthrough , JB as some sort of  visionary,  but all I thought was 'What took you so long, guys  ? Don't you even read Trout and Salmon magazine ?   

 

Where to start... lack of knowledge, expertise, equipment, and space plus a healthy dose of superstition - in light of the RB211 fan blade saga carbon was perceived to be brittle by most people - hardly the kind of stuff you'd want around you in a monumental crash at, say, Monza.... By the end of the seventies McLaren was pretty familiar with composite structures, using that term as a generic phrase to encompass cored/skinned components, be it foam (rohacell) or honeycomb (nomex, aluminium) core in conjunction with glass or aluminium skins, but this was all cured in a large unpressurised oven with vacuum bag assistance. I can't recall precisely when carbon started being used. As I said, my dad was developing their capability in this area this from around 75 onwards. 

 

The story of how JB came to be aware of the structural use of carbon at a time when he was looking for an alternative to aluminium is pretty well known. Aluminium is not very stiff at all - you can easily see distortion in monolithic aluminium components - the flex in brake calipers as the pressure is applied is very visible.  He looked at steel but it is too heavy, so his crossing paths with the people at British Aerospace, creating and fitting structural panels in ways that looked very familiar, overcame the psychological barrier. 

 

The trouble once teams became aware of the advantages of using carbon for chassis was lack of knowledgeable people and, frankly, space. McLaren, Tyrrell, Brabham etc. were helped by their geographical proximity to British Aerospace at Brooklands, so there was a source of laminators, patternmakers, toolmakers, engineers  and designers. The other thing you needed was space - autoclaves are very large, so when Tyrrell finally took the plunge in 1988 to establish a proper composites manufacturing facility it meant effectively doubling the size of the factory to accommodate clean rooms, patternmaking, laminating and fitting.  

 

 

Of course Watson's crash demolished the apprehension about the perceived brittleness of CFRP, at least in average modulus, woven form.


Edited by Nigel Beresford, 13 January 2022 - 11:34.


#121 blackmme

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Posted 13 January 2022 - 12:40

Where to start... lack of knowledge, expertise, equipment, and space plus a healthy dose of superstition - in light of the RB211 fan blade saga carbon was perceived to be brittle by most people - hardly the kind of stuff you'd want around you in a monumental crash at, say, Monza.... By the end of the seventies McLaren was pretty familiar with composite structures, using that term as a generic phrase to encompass cored/skinned components, be it foam (rohacell) or honeycomb (nomex, aluminium) core in conjunction with glass or aluminium skins, but this was all cured in a large unpressurised oven with vacuum bag assistance. I can't recall precisely when carbon started being used. As I said, my dad was developing their capability in this area this from around 75 onwards. 

 

The story of how JB came to be aware of the structural use of carbon at a time when he was looking for an alternative to aluminium is pretty well known. Aluminium is not very stiff at all - you can easily see distortion in monolithic aluminium components - the flex in brake calipers as the pressure is applied is very visible.  He looked at steel but it is too heavy, so his crossing paths with the people at British Aerospace, creating and fitting structural panels in ways that looked very familiar, overcame the psychological barrier. 

 

The trouble once teams became aware of the advantages of using carbon for chassis was lack of knowledgeable people and, frankly, space. McLaren, Tyrrell, Brabham etc. were helped by their geographical proximity to British Aerospace at Brooklands, so there was a source of laminators, patternmakers, toolmakers, engineers  and designers. The other thing you needed was space - autoclaves are very large, so when Tyrrell finally took the plunge in 1988 to establish a proper composites manufacturing facility it meant effectively doubling the size of the factory to accommodate clean rooms, patternmaking, laminating and fitting.  

 

 

Of course Watson's crash demolished the apprehension about the perceived brittleness of CFRP, at least in average modulus, woven form.

 

I apologise in advance if I’m mistaken in this understanding (especially given the contributors to this topic) but I believe a certain amount of distrust in CF as a structural rather than just 'panel' material came from Rolf Stommelen's tragic accident in the 1975 Spanish Grand Prix.  I have read that Andy Smallman (who of course tragically lost his life in the plane crash at the end of the year) was something of a CF pioneer and the rear wing support that failed on the Rolf's car was a completely CF structure under a heavy load.

 

In respect of the subject of this topic Brabham were using CF panels as non-structural items but I think I am correct in saying that even up to the BT53 of 1984 the actual monocoque was a composite aluminium and CF tub. 

I read (pretty sure in the Motorsport interview) that when Gordon went to McLaren in 87 he thought they were a long way behind Brabham in CF component manufacture and use (possibly understandable given the Hercules connection) but I can imagine that if he voiced that opinion in that way that it would not have endeared him to the folks in Woking! 

 

Regards Mike


Edited by blackmme, 14 January 2022 - 06:02.


#122 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 13 January 2022 - 13:07

Hi Mike,

Re the Stommelen wing mount failure, I had forgotten about that. I’m sure it added to the reluctance to use carbon structurally until people really knew what they were doing.

As for Brabham and McLaren’s relative level in terms of composites in 1987 I wouldn’t know, but the most prominent expert at that time was Brian O’Rourke at Williams.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 13 January 2022 - 13:23.


#123 BRG

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Posted 13 January 2022 - 15:43

I cannot remember exactly when it was, but one of the lads from our motor club got a job as gofer and general dogsbody at Brabham in Chessington.  He brought a small c/f piece along to the club and invited our largest club member to jump on it.  Which he did and hurt his foot.  It was the first time any of us had really heard of c/f.  Not sure now what the part was for - it was a small thing a bit like a kidney dish, only straighter,



#124 Doug Nye

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Posted 13 January 2022 - 18:34

If I remember rightly - without checking - the ATS composite tubs were moulded for them by the forerunners of the modern Advanced Composites Group company, based in Heanor, Derbyshire.  I believe that Alfa Romeo/Autodelta also used the company's services?  Something like that...  It's buried somewhere in my past scribblings, but right now the log burner is keeping us so cosy on this cold evening that I am not going hunting... While McLaren went to the US and Hercules for manufacturing help - others in Europe came here to ACG (or its forerunner concern).

 

DCN



#125 Charles E Taylor

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Posted 13 January 2022 - 22:21

Perhaps some research into the contribution made to Motorsport by Roger Sloman might be in order.

 

https://www.motorspo...ing-lives-today

 

 

The more you look the more you see.

 

 

Take Care

 

 

 

Charlie



#126 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 13:53

Very interesting. Thanks for that.

#127 Doug Nye

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 15:59

Yes indeed - Roger Sloman, that's the gentleman I was thinking of.  Not ATS after all, it appears, but certainly Alfa Romeo.

 

DCN



#128 funformula

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 19:38

Some impressions of the Alfa Romeo 182 monocoque here

ALFAROMEO182 (gurneyflap.com)

 

But I doubt it was intended to run without bodywork over the front end