184 replies to this topic

[Anderis]

As of "the most unexpected team mate battle results" I mean cases in which the driver who had been expected to be beaten turned out to be actually faster, or the driver who was expected to be totally dominated turned out to be really close. Being higher in WDC only thanks to luck is not what I'm looking for.

 

The ones I can think of:

1. Ricciardo vs Vettel (2014)

Vettel had just won 4 consecutive WDCs, dominated Webber since 2011 and had had a superb season in midfield Toro Rosso in 2008, while Ricciardo looked just OK in Toro Rosso but few people saw him as the next big thing and some even questioned if he was really that much better than Vergne and deserved to be given a seat in a top team. Despite all of that, the Australian driver came out ahead by quite a margin.

 

2. Hamilton vs Alonso (2007)

While Hamilton was widely acknowledged as a great talent, Alonso was widely seen as the best driver on the grid. Even if it was not a shocking opinion to see Lewis as equally talented driver to Fernando, everybody was aware based on the past history that even the most talented drivers were rarely able to perform on a WDC worthy level since year 1 in F1 and it took a decent amount of experience to get to anywhere near one's peak. Hamilton's case proved to be different as he started matching Alonso just after a few races and even beat him in the final WDC standings.

 

3. Norris vs Ricciardo (2021)

It's kind of funny to see Daniel featured here in both roles but it's how it's. His record against his team mates had been very good, as he was significantly faster than all of his former team mates bar Max, and that list includes a multiple WDC like Vettel but also exciting talents like Ocon. He was also much closer to Verstapen than any other driver since, while all Norris could show on his F1 resume were 2 seasons lost against Sainz, whose own record against his team mates was not that stellar either, including a loss to Nico Hulkenberg. Ricciardo was definitely a favourite to win this confrontation, maybe not as overwhelming one as one could deduce from my previous lines, as Lando enjoyed a lot of support and opinion of a talented driver. There might have been some people who called Norris as the winner of this battle but the extent of his advantage over Ricciardo in the first half of the season must have surprised every neutral observer.

 

4. Rosberg vs Schumacher (2010-2012)

This one can be a bit of a controversial inclusion since with hindsight it totally made sense that Schumacher wasn't at his best after the return and Rosberg's estimation went quite a bit up between 2010 and 2016 but since the topic is based on expectations from that time period, I think this battle deserves to be here. I remember many people didn't really rate Nico at the time and he was supposed to be an easy target for even a past-peak Michael, at the very worst it was supposed to take a few months for him to start beating Nico on a consistent basis. As the evidence I can bring the data from "Place The Points Competition" from this forum where out of 34 players, 28 expected Schumacher to end up the year with more points than Rosberg. So yeah, don't let the hindsight trick you, Schumacher was overwhelmingly favoured to win this battle but he didn't manage to do it.

 

5. Massa vs Raikkonen (2007-2009)

Raikkonen had been seen by many at the time as the fastest driver in F1, while few people had really expected Massa to ever become a proper top driver, yet the pair turned out to be closely matched. Even 2007 was closer than it may seen, Felipe was leading Kimi in the standings after 12 races but the mechanical DNF at Monza made Ferrari to turn its focus towards Raikkonen as their chances of chatching up to McLaren's drivers in WDC grew smaller and smaller.

 

Some of these weren't exactly sensational but it's the best I can think of. My memory can only go as far in time as 2006, so perhaps some of you will be able to provide examples that will vastly enrich this list.

[noikeee]

Button vs Villeneuve 2003. People were expecting Button to be smoked...

 

I'll think of more later. Good idea for a thread.

[Anderis]

One I forgot to include in the OP:
6. Kobayashi vs Trulli (2009)

A driver with pretty unremarkable results in GP2 was unexpectedly thrown into a car late season. I expected a little disaster but he managed to beat Trulli on merit in his 2nd race. I was not the only person impressed as he managed to find an F1 seat for 2010 without much sponsorship support IIRC.

Edited by Anderis, 22 December 2021 - 23:11.

[ProSportsCars]

Button vs Villeneuve 2003. People were expecting Button to be smoked...

 

I'll think of more later. Good idea for a thread.

Yeah I remember that one, turned out that Button was actually very good and he went on to win WDC in 2009, while Villenueve became the consensus worst driver to ever win a WDC. Similar thing happened in 2014 as Ricciardo dominated defending champion Vettel, and now everyone knows the latter is the worst to ever win multiple championships.

Edited by ProSportsCars, 22 December 2021 - 23:22.

[Alfisti]

Rosberg Schumacher played out exactly as expected no??? He was 100 years old.

And ricciardo was better than just ok in the toro Ross.

[stevesingo]

As of "the most unexpected team mate battle results" I mean cases in which the driver who had been expected to be beaten turned out to be actually faster, or the driver who was expected to be totally dominated turned out to be really close. Being higher in WDC only thanks to luck is not what I'm looking for.

 

The ones I can think of:

1. Ricciardo vs Vettel (2014)

Vettel had just won 4 consecutive WDCs, dominated Webber since 2011 and had had a superb season in midfield Toro Rosso in 2008, while Ricciardo looked just OK in Toro Rosso but few people saw him as the next big thing and some even questioned if he was really that much better than Vergne and deserved to be given a seat in a top team. Despite all of that, the Australian driver came out ahead by quite a margin.

 

2. Hamilton vs Alonso (2007)

While Hamilton was widely acknowledged as a great talent, Alonso was widely seen as the best driver on the grid. Even if it was not a shocking opinion to see Lewis as equally talented driver to Fernando, everybody was aware based on the past history that even the most talented drivers were rarely able to perform on a WDC worthy level since year 1 in F1 and it took a decent amount of experience to get to anywhere near one's peak. Hamilton's case proved to be different as he started matching Alonso just after a few races and even beat him in the final WDC standings.

 

3. Norris vs Ricciardo (2021)

It's kind of funny to see Daniel featured here in both roles but it's how it's. His record against his team mates had been very good, as he was significantly faster than all of his former team mates bar Max, and that list includes a multiple WDC like Vettel but also exciting talents like Ocon. He was also much closer to Verstapen than any other driver since, while all Norris could show on his F1 resume were 2 seasons lost against Sainz, whose own record against his team mates was not that stellar either, including a loss to Nico Hulkenberg. Ricciardo was definitely a favourite to win this confrontation, maybe not as overwhelming one as one could deduce from my previous lines, as Lando enjoyed a lot of support and opinion of a talented driver. There might have been some people who called Norris as the winner of this battle but the extent of his advantage over Ricciardo in the first half of the season must have surprised every neutral observer.

 

4. Rosberg vs Schumacher (2010-2012)

This one can be a bit of a controversial inclusion since with hindsight it totally made sense that Schumacher wasn't at his best after the return and Rosberg's estimation went quite a bit up between 2010 and 2016 but since the topic is based on expectations from that time period, I think this battle deserves to be here. I remember many people didn't really rate Nico at the time and he was supposed to be an easy target for even a past-peak Michael, at the very worst it was supposed to take a few months for him to start beating Nico on a consistent basis. As the evidence I can bring the data from "Place The Points Competition" from this forum where out of 34 players, 28 expected Schumacher to end up the year with more points than Rosberg. So yeah, don't let the hindsight trick you, Schumacher was overwhelmingly favoured to win this battle but he didn't manage to do it.

 

5. Massa vs Raikkonen (2007-2009)

Raikkonen had been seen by many at the time as the fastest driver in F1, while few people had really expected Massa to ever become a proper top driver, yet the pair turned out to be closely matched. Even 2007 was closer than it may seen, Felipe was leading Kimi in the standings after 12 races but the mechanical DNF at Monza made Ferrari to turn its focus towards Raikkonen as their chances of chatching up to McLaren's drivers in WDC grew smaller and smaller.

 

Some of these weren't exactly sensational but it's the best I can think of. My memory can only go as far in time as 2006, so perhaps some of you will be able to provide examples that will vastly enrich this list.

 

6. LeClerc vs Sainz (2021)

LeClerc was often touted as elite an spoke of in the same manner as Hamilton, Verstappen and Alonso after giving Vettel a run for his money.  Sainz was supposed to be the solid midfielder who was run close by relative newcomer Norris in 2020, although beat him 9-3 in races the both finished in 2019.  Sainz was beaten by Hulkenberg in 2018, 2017 is a confusion due to the TorroRosso revolving door. But, people seem to forget that 2016 Sainz raced against Verstappen in the first four rounds and although it was 3:1 in qualifying, it was 1:1 in the races both finished.  Sainz outscored LeClerc in 2021, despite being new to the team!

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Even after three years against Schumacher, I don't think many people expected Rosberg to hold his own against Hamilton.

[alframsey]

Rosberg Schumacher played out exactly as expected no??? He was 100 years old.

And ricciardo was better than just ok in the toro Ross.

Yeah that is my memory too tbh and I don't remember many saying Schumi would be the man he once was?

[tourister46a]

2005 Raikkonen vs Montoya. I remember both being hot prospects but the ease with which Kimi beat his teammate in both 2005 and 2006 was a shock to me. Kimi essentially ended JP's career. Looking at how Kimi's career later turned out, this is even more puzzling.

[Anderis]

Rosberg Schumacher played out exactly as expected no??? He was 100 years old.

Yeah that is my memory too tbh and I don't remember many saying Schumi would be the man he once was?

Did you even read what I had written?

 

As the evidence I can bring the data from "Place The Points Competition" from this forum where out of 34 players, 28 expected Schumacher to end up the year with more points than Rosberg.

The overwhelming majority of people expected Schumacher to win against Rosberg (I presented hard data), even if today it may seem like irrational expectations. People might have not necessarily expected Schumi to be the man he once had been, but the dominant expectation was that it was still going to be enough to beat Nico, who was very underrated at the time, with opinions that he would never even win a single race not being uncommon.

 

6. LeClerc vs Sainz (2021)

LeClerc was often touted as elite an spoke of in the same manner as Hamilton, Verstappen and Alonso after giving Vettel a run for his money.  Sainz was supposed to be the solid midfielder who was run close by relative newcomer Norris in 2020, although beat him 9-3 in races the both finished in 2019.  Sainz was beaten by Hulkenberg in 2018, 2017 is a confusion due to the TorroRosso revolving door. But, people seem to forget that 2016 Sainz raced against Verstappen in the first four rounds and although it was 3:1 in qualifying, it was 1:1 in the races both finished.  Sainz outscored LeClerc in 2021, despite being new to the team!

Leclerc beat Sainz 14-6 head to head in races they both finished, don't let the points score mislead you- as I said in the opening post, I'm looking for unexpected performance balance, not unexpected "dry" result where a slower driver ends up ahead thanks to luck. I don't feel like Leclerc-Sainz was unexpected. Despite the points result, Charles was the quicker and better driver this season and by a margin not far from what an average fan had expected as most people rated Sainz as a very solid driver who was not expected to be totally destroyed by Leclerc.

 

And ricciardo was better than just ok in the toro Ross.

Of course it depends on what you mean by "ok" and "better than just ok", he had some impressive performances and we can discuss about stuff but I don't really recall many people seeing him as the next best thing which was the point. His Toro Rosso performances were good but not so great that everybody was screaming "a future WDC" and he was totally not expected to challenge Vettel, yet alone beat him, by the majority of people.
 

Edited by Anderis, 23 December 2021 - 00:04.

[ensign14]

Regazzoni v Lauda.  One had won his fifth Grand Prix and finished third in the world title in his first half-a-season.  The other had been eviscerated by Peterson.  Yet in the BRMs they were equally matched - and at Ferrari Lauda became a legend.  Then again Watson and Piquet showed up better against Lauda than anyone would probably have expected.

 

Richie Ginther joined BRM in 1962 as a very likely race-winner, alongside Graham Hill who was not.  He'd only had one chance at winning in four years. 

 

And of course Mansell in 1986, meant to be in Piquet's shadow.

[ensign14]

Going back pre-war, the proletarian Lang was put in the Merc team as a sort of working-class exemplar, coming up from the mechanics side of things, but in 1939 he was the best driver in the world.  The list of other drivers given a similar chance is long and obscure; names such as Geier, Brendel, Kautz, and others who didn't get beyond testing.  Rosemeyer was a similar example but the circumstances were more unusual and his team-mates a more variable standard.

[PlayboyRacer]

Yeah I remember that one, turned out that Button was actually very good and he went on to win WDC in 2009, while Villenueve became the consensus worst driver to ever win a WDC.

And still to this day that view taken by many is asinine.

Villeneuve and Button were neck and neck in 2003. In fact if you fuel adjust their qualifying battle, it's JV that was still quicker. Yet his car never held up in races, never giving his strategy the chance to play out effectively.

But by that stage Jacques was in decline anyhow. Throw in him protecting Pollock, leading to a rift with Richards... and it was game over. Still he should have been at BAR for 2004. It just shows how bad things got behind the scenes.

Jenson turned out a great driver. Particularly later stages of his career, he impressed me against Hamilton. But prime v prime, I'm still taking 90's Villeneuve.

[noikeee]

And of course Mansell in 1986, meant to be in Piquet's shadow.

This one definitely belongs in this thread. I was born 86 so can't really tell what the feeling was then, but I bet that was a massive shock to most. Nigel hadn't really done much in quite a few years in F1 (although he had ended 85 strongly) and Nelson had a huge reputation as a double world champion.

[PlayboyRacer]

2005 Raikkonen vs Montoya. I remember both being hot prospects but the ease with which Kimi beat his teammate in both 2005 and 2006 was a shock to me. Kimi essentially ended JP's career. Looking at how Kimi's career later turned out, this is even more puzzling.

This is a great one. Montoya v Raikkonen was supposed to be fireworks, both landing heavy blows on the other. But Montoya at McLaren just never clicked, though his form in the latter stages of 2005 was actually quite good.

Both hugely talented drivers. But flawed... and we seen the same with Raikkonen at Ferrari. Up against Massa. That's another good one.

Every man and his dog thought Raikkonen would destroy Massa.

[Spillage]

I don't think too many people would have expected Ronnie Peterson to get the better of Emerson Fittipaldi in 1973. Fittipaldi was the reigning world champion who'd been much better than his previous teammates. He did the edge Ronnie in the championship standings, but by the end of the year Peterson had the edge and Fittipaldi ended up leaving for McLaren. Whereupon he immediately won another title.

[Dutchrudder]

Yeah that is my memory too tbh and I don't remember many saying Schumi would be the man he once was?

I recall it being evidence that Schumacher was really past it and that his return wasn’t really worthwhile because he couldn’t beat an average Rosberg. Turned out Rosberg was really close to the best in the sport and would go on to get a title. That’s kind of reframed Schumi’s return for me, coming to realise that. He was still pretty good, just that Merc took a little too long to get up to challanging for him.

[GunnarN7]

Rosberg was considered to be quite good in his Williams years. He basically did what Gasly has been doing in these past 2 seasons, class of the midfield and always being as high as his car allowed him to be. In 2009 he finished right behind Lewis and Kimi and without a single podium, while Trulli, Alonso, Glock did get at least one, so he beat them through consistency. Also GP2 champion in his debut season, I mean, there was no over hype or anything around him but most expected Michael to have a tough teammate from the start. 

 

I'd say Alonso vs Fisichella (2005). Fisichella was returning to Enstone team after beating Massa at Sauber, and he was the most experienced of the two by quite a margin whereas Alonso had had a so-so 2004 season, struggling with Trulli in qualifying after what had been an impressive 2003. His stock had dropped at the end of 2004 for sure. Giancarlo did manage to win the first race (not exactly by merit, though) but after that Fernando dominated the duel and gave him no chance.

Edited by GunnarN7, 23 December 2021 - 01:14.

[PlayboyRacer]

I never thought Fisichella would get near Alonso tbh. Was always overrated imo.

Prost and Rosberg 1986 could be another one. I think many thought Keke would be far closer to Alain than he was, he never really gelled with the MP4/2C. Though when he did he was still very fast.

[DW46]

And still to this day that view taken by many is asinine.

Villeneuve and Button were neck and neck in 2003. In fact if you fuel adjust their qualifying battle, it's JV that was still quicker. Yet his car never held up in races, never giving his strategy the chance to play out effectively.

But by that stage Jacques was in decline anyhow. Throw in him protecting Pollock, leading to a rift with Richards... and it was game over. Still he should have been at BAR for 2004. It just shows how bad things got behind the scenes.

Jenson turned out a great driver. Particularly later stages of his career, he impressed me against Hamilton. But prime v prime, I'm still taking 90's Villeneuve.

That’s my exact memory of this to be honest. JV didn’t help himself by stirring the pot with the press who responded in kind with a series of articles about him been a has been in F1 Racing and Autosport magazines.

Despite this when they were on the track neck and neck in Australia and UK JV was ahead. It would have been good to see him at the front again with BAR in 04 but he declined the sabbatical offer from Richards (or it was never made if you listen to Jacques) and never really recovered. There was some rumours about a return to Williams or BAR in a super team with Mika but sadly we got a much weaker Jacques after he returned.

Also to whomever said worst world champion - that 97 campaign wasn’t perfect but he beat the best in the world and raced fair. Listen to Jock Clears “Beyond the Grid” episode to get a good idea of how highly thought of Jacques is.

[Baddoer]

Trulli vs Alonso first half of 2004. I think that was toughest competition Alonso faced in the team until certain Lewis Hamilton.

[PlayboyRacer]

That’s my exact memory of this to be honest. JV didn’t help himself by stirring the pot with the press who responded in kind with a series of articles about him been a has been in F1 Racing and Autosport magazines.

Despite this when they were on the track neck and neck in Australia and UK JV was ahead. It would have been good to see him at the front again with BAR in 04 but he declined the sabbatical offer from Richards (or it was never made if you listen to Jacques) and never really recovered. There was some rumours about a return to Williams or BAR in a super team with Mika but sadly we got a much weaker Jacques after he returned.

Also to whomever said worst world champion - that 97 campaign wasn’t perfect but he beat the best in the world and raced fair. Listen to Jock Clears “Beyond the Grid” episode to get a good idea of how highly thought of Jacques is.

Yeah he didn't help himself with being outspoken in the press. But then again I don't think anyone knew how bad things were behind the scenes for him. He could see "his team" (he part owned BAR) slipping away, Pollock was causing waves and JV felt he had to take sides. He was on a hiding to nothing. But make no mistake, he still wasn't the driver he'd been in his prime. I've always believed the decline started Melbourne 2001. JV before and JV after is night and day.

But as I said earlier, Button really impressed me through his career. It's horses for courses. If I want a champion who's brilliant in mixed/wet conditions and super clever on race day, I'm taking Button in his prime. If I want a champion who can wring the neck of a car on a qualifying lap, is crazy brave and capable of brilliance in a dry race, I'm taking prime JV. Both had different strengths and weaknesses.

I think they're both underrated these days. In addition to Clears interview, I highly recommend Jonathan Williams' interview on "bring back V10's". He speaks very, very highly of Jacques and how great he was.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 23 December 2021 - 06:14.

[Afterburner]

Great idea for a thread!

Vettel vs. Ricciardo was not a total surprise to me (and unlike most apparently I actually did rate Vettel very highly then) so I wouldn’t put it anywhere near number 1 personally. The three that have been a shock to me in my time watching F1:

Raikkonen vs. Massa 2008: After Raikkonen won the world championship with a team notorious for its No. 1/2 system, and then started the next year with a commanding lead in the championship, it seemed inconceivable that presumed No. 2 Massa would end up the team’s lead driver and best hope for the championship–and yet, that’s exactly what happened. I still don’t know what exactly happened to Raikkonen in 2008 to cause such a dramatic turnaround, but it was a year Ferrari should have won handily.

Montoya vs. Raikkonen 2005: my memory may be a bit foggy on this one, but I definitely remember expecting JPM to do a lot better than he did with McLaren, particularly in 2005. Perhaps the “tennis accident” ruined what might have been a productive partnership. Nonetheless I was surprised that Raikkonen ended up the superior of the two by the margin that he did (though I think the race head-to-head was even?).

Ricciardo vs. Norris 2021: not much to say here. I’m not the only one who was probably expecting this to be a lot closer than it ended up being…

[DW46]

Yeah he didn't help himself with being outspoken in the press. But then again I don't think anyone knew how bad things were behind the scenes for him. He could see "his team" (he part owned BAR) slipping away, Pollock was causing waves and JV felt he had to take sides. He was on a hiding to nothing. But make no mistake, he still wasn't the driver he'd been in his prime. I've always believed the decline started Melbourne 2001. JV before and JV after is night and day.

But as I said earlier, Button really impressed me through his career. It's horses for courses. If I want a champion who's brilliant in mixed/wet conditions and super clever on race day, I'm taking Button in his prime. If I want a champion who can wring the neck of a car on a qualifying lap, is crazy brave and capable of brilliance in a dry race, I'm taking prime JV. Both had different strengths and weaknesses.

I think they're both underrated these days. In addition to Clears interview, I highly recommend Jonathan Williams' interview on "bring back V10's". He speaks very, very highly of Jacques and how great he was.

Yeah JV was amazing to watch in that 96-01 period. Re Button, I think the battle with Jacques and the backing of Richards made him more confident. He seemed to grow the longer that season went on and at the time I would never have expected 2004 from him. I missed a lot of 2009 but remember being thoroughly surprised to see him holding his own in the 5 way scrap in early 2010.

I agree re the underrating, I’ve done a lot of reading on F1 history and whilst you can never compare eras I find these two hard to place in comparison to other champions - somewhere around Nico and Kimi but probably a bit behind them, about level with Damon but with nothing really in it. If only Sir Frank had kept them both for 97!

Thanks for the tip buddy I’ll find that interview to stretch my JV man crush into its 25th year . . .

Mad to think Max was born that year.

[PlayboyRacer]

Yeah JV was amazing to watch in that 96-01 period. Re Button, I think the battle with Jacques and the backing of Richards made him more confident. He seemed to grow the longer that season went on and at the time I would never have expected 2004 from him. I missed a lot of 2009 but remember being thoroughly surprised to see him holding his own in the 5 way scrap in early 2010.

I agree re the underrating, I’ve done a lot of reading on F1 history and whilst you can never compare eras I find these two hard to place in comparison to other champions - somewhere around Nico and Kimi but probably a bit behind them, about level with Damon but with nothing really in it. If only Sir Frank had kept them both for 97!

Thanks for the tip buddy I’ll find that interview to stretch my JV man crush into its 25th year . . .

Mad to think Max was born that year.

Youre welcome mate. It's the "Villeneuve v Schumacher Jerez '97" episode. A great listen.

And yes time flies...

[TennisUK]

JB v Hamilton. I expected JB to get thrashed, but he did not. Many of the stand out Mclaren drives of that era were Button, not Hamilton, too.

[NoForumForOldPole]

Button vs Hamilton 2010-12

I thought Jenson would be annihilated by Lewis, yet after 4 races Jenson had 2 wins! JB run Lewis very close in championship in 2010 and 12 and beat him on his way to runner up spot in 2011.

Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 23 December 2021 - 06:59.

[absinthedude]

Yup...Button Vs Hamilton. Jenson got a lot closer than anyone thought he would, and even came out on top one season. A lot of folk mistakenly thought that Button's 2009 title was a fluke and some commentators even smugly said he'd never win a race again. I think he proved he was a worthy champion all along. And even though I was never one of his detractors, I was surprised at how close that battle at McLaren was at times. 

 

Mansell Vs Piquet. While some did suspect Mansell had more talent than he'd been able to show at Lotus (especially during the Peter Warr years), I don't think anyone honestly expected him to put Piquet in his place. I certainly hoped he'd win a race or two against Piquet, as he had against Rosberg, but was utterly thrilled when he turned out to be faster than Nelson and well capable of putting him in the shade. 

 

Massa rose to the challenge of Raikkonen, which was unexpected.

[Nemo1965]

Watson vs Lauda. Lauda vs Prost. The demonstrably, historically proven better driver…lost. Watson even beat Lauda over two seasons. Prost only lost in 1984 because the flag was dropped too early in Monaco. Twenty odd laps later, he would have finished second either behind Senna (who had damaged his car) or Stefan Bellof. But then he would have had full points (6) for a second place, instead of half points (4,5) for first.

Whatever the outcome, that Lauda even could live with Prost amazed me. And that while Niki Lauda was my hero…

Edited by Nemo1965, 23 December 2021 - 08:30.

[JeePee]

Raikkonen vs. Massa 2008: After Raikkonen won the world championship with a team notorious for its No. 1/2 system, and then started the next year with a commanding lead in the championship, it seemed inconceivable that presumed No. 2 Massa would end up the team’s lead driver and best hope for the championship–and yet, that’s exactly what happened. I still don’t know what exactly happened to Raikkonen in 2008 to cause such a dramatic turnaround, but it was a year Ferrari should have won handily.

If memory serves me right, they 'updated' the rear suspension after Spain and then couldn't get Kimi in the groove again untill they changed it back in Belgium. Where he was looking good again till the rain came.

[absinthedude]

Lauda was my hero too....I really didn't expect him to get anywhere close to Prost in 1984...but "the computer" as he was known before "the rat" came into play. He knew he wasn't as fast. He knew he wasn't as brave. But he could be more wily. And he was. 

[Anja]

Would Raikkonen vs Alonso in 2014 be a decent shout? Kimi's comeback was deemed quite a success after his two wins and many podiums for Lotus, and there was a lot of excitement when he joined Alonso at Ferrari. It was supposed to be a close battle of two greats but it ended up being very one sided and the margin didn't look good for Kimi at all. 

Edited by Anja, 23 December 2021 - 09:04.

[SpeedRacer`]

Would Raikkonen vs Alonso in 2014 be a decent shout? Kimi's comeback was deemed quite a success after his two wins and many podiums for Lotus, and there was a lot of excitement when he joined Alonso at Ferrari. It was supposed to be a close battle of two greats but it ended up being very one sided and the margin didn't look good for Kimi at all. 

 

Yeah this was my first thought too. Most people would've ranked Kimi and Alonso as fairly equal up until this season.

 

Still feel annoyed that Chilton cost Kimi a podium at Monaco though 

 

Looking back in hindsight:

 

- Villeneuve dominating Frentzen at Williams

- Sainz being outperformed by Hulk at Renault, was lucky to stay in F1 in 2019

 

Have to say I was a bit underwhelmed with Bottas at Merc overall and Perez this season as well.

[ensign14]

Would Raikkonen vs Alonso in 2014 be a decent shout? Kimi's comeback was deemed quite a success after his two wins and many podiums for Lotus, and there was a lot of excitement when he joined Alonso at Ferrari. It was supposed to be a close battle of two greats but it ended up being very one sided and the margin didn't look good for Kimi at all. 

I've not ranked Raikkonen in the same league as Alonso since 2005.  It wasn't a surprise to me.  The Massa v Raikkonen battle was a surprise insofar as I had no idea how much Kimi had turned off after winning the title because in 2008 he should have walked it.

 

Another one: Depailler v Peterson in 1977.  If you were going to say one would squash the other, you'd think it would be Mad Ronald doing the squashing.

 

Also Lafitte v Cheever in 1982.  Lafitte had come within a gnat's crotchet of an unexpected world title in 1981, Cheever had been bumbling along in midfield in a Tyrrell.  But Cheever had perhaps the best season of his F1 career; perhaps Jolly Jacques was devastated by the effective outlawing of the JS19's USP.

[Taxi]

I can't believe people are forgeting Ricciardo/Vettel 2014. 

 

Other examples: 

 

JB/Villeneuve 2003, Sainz/Leclerc, Norris/Ric 2021, Watson/Lauda 1982-3  Alesi /Capelli 1991,  Hakkinen/Mansell 1995,  Vettel/Leclerc 2019-20, 

Edited by Taxi, 23 December 2021 - 09:37.

[RPM40]

I've not ranked Raikkonen in the same league as Alonso since 2005.  It wasn't a surprise to me.  The Massa v Raikkonen battle was a surprise insofar as I had no idea how much Kimi had turned off after winning the title because in 2008 he should have walked it.

 

Another one: Depailler v Peterson in 1977.  If you were going to say one would squash the other, you'd think it would be Mad Ronald doing the squashing.

 

Also Lafitte v Cheever in 1982.  Lafitte had come within a gnat's crotchet of an unexpected world title in 1981, Cheever had been bumbling along in midfield in a Tyrrell.  But Cheever had perhaps the best season of his F1 career; perhaps Jolly Jacques was devastated by the effective outlawing of the JS19's USP.

 

Massa v Raikkonen provided a very good insight into how you would expect the Alonso v Raikkonen battle to go. Massa and Raikkonen were nearly perfectly even over their time together as team mates, so it would make sense they would perform similarly against Alonso, and they did. 

 

If anything it was one of the least surprising team mate battles to me. It was just more that there was a lot of media and fan hype behind Raikkonen. 

[Anja]

I can't believe people are forgeting Ricciardo/Vettel 2014. 

 

Other examples: 

 

JB/Villeneuve 2003, Sainz/Leclerc, Norris/Ric 2021, Watson/Lauda 1982-3  Alesi /Capelli 1991,  Hakkinen/Mansell 1995,  Vettel/Leclerc 2019-20, 

 

Someone didn't read the opening post 

[IrvTheSwerve]

Irvine/Schumacher 99... 

[noikeee]

Coulthard suddenly beating Mika in 2001 after being ripped to shreds the previous 3 years, was a strange one.

 

Irvine/Schumacher 99... 

 

Uh, I don't think people expected Michael to break a leg, true..

[moreland]

Great off-season topic!

 

I've got one valid if slightly obscure one that I can think of, Blundell versus Katayama, Tyrrell, 1994. Blundell had already scored a podium and been generally fast in 1993 and was regarded as a hard charger who'd battled his way to F1 by shining without a big budget in the lower formulae. Katayama had been fairly erratic in 92 and 93, was particularly invisible in 1993 with a very slow Tyrrell. In the end, it was 11-5 to Katayama in qualifying and while Blundell won the points 9-6, Katayama only actually finished 4 races. That was as good as it got for Katayama though, he was anonymous for the remainder of his career.

 

Next one is a bit of a cheat, but Hakkinen outqualifying Senna at Portugal in 1993 was a shock. Senna was faster in the race and comfortably quicker for the other 2 qualifying and races, but it was still a major turning point in Hakkinen's reputation.

 

Last one I can think of right now, and it's also cheating, but can I include a 'retrospective surprise'? Hakkinen and Herbert were equally matched, with Herbert possibly slightly ahead, during their Lotus years of 1991/1992. Given how the rest of their careers panned out, that just makes no sense to me. This was even more surprising given that Herbert's leg injuries had had more time to recover in his later years.

[PlatenGlass]

Hill v Frentzen at Jordan in 1999 was a big shocker for Hill.

Then Frentzen v Trulli at Jordan, certainly in the later stages of their time together into 2001 was a shocker for Frentzen, who spent a very short time back in fashion after his Williams disaster.

[PlatenGlass]

Great off-season topic!

I've got one valid if slightly obscure one that I can think of, Blundell versus Katayama, Tyrrell, 1994. Blundell had already scored a podium and been generally fast in 1993 and was regarded as a hard charger who'd battled his way to F1 by shining without a big budget in the lower formulae. Katayama had been fairly erratic in 92 and 93, was particularly invisible in 1993 with a very slow Tyrrell. In the end, it was 11-5 to Katayama in qualifying and while Blundell won the points 9-6, Katayama only actually finished 4 races. That was as good as it got for Katayama though, he was anonymous for the remainder of his career.

I would suggest that it was no coincidence that the weight limit included both car and driver from 1995.

[Tombstone]

John Miles vs. Jochen Rindt and David Walker vs. Emerson Fitipaldi.

 

Ok, no-one expected them to beat their more lauded team mates, but to score zero points when the other driver went on to become WDC...

[PlatenGlass]

Arnoux v Alboreto at Ferrari in 1984. Arnoux looked quick even with Prost as his team-mate at Renault (more poles, though behind in the head-to-head I think). He also challenged for the title in 1983. But from 1984 his career started going backwards and Alboreto was the main man at Ferrari.

Alboreto v Johansson in 1986. Having been the stronger driver against Arnoux in 1984 and challenged for the title for most of 1985, Alboreto finished behind Johansson on points in 1986. If there was any bad luck involved in that, well he was basically slaughtered by Berger in 1987/8. From a seeming WDC potential driver to an also-ran in a short amount of time.

Then Berger v Senna at McLaren. After the whole Arnoux < Alboreto < Berger thing, surely we had a top driver now. Berger even outqualified Senna at their first race together. But then he rarely impressed again in his entire career.

[Sterzo]

Fascinating thread with some great examples, prompted by a clearly defined subject in the opening post. It gives rise to a thought: there are huge fluctuations in driver performance.

 

It's easy to  assume that A is better than B, or that it's all about the car. But in fact these guys are operating on a knife edge, under terrific pressure, and small changes in their mindsets, or in the techniques needed for different cars, can change performance radically.

[moreland]

I would suggest that it was no coincidence that the weight limit included both car and driver from 1995.

I agree, that was likely a factor, also for the Herbert/Hakkinen example. I wonder how good Prost would have looked if that weight rule had applied throughout the 80s too

Edited by moreland, 23 December 2021 - 10:39.

[PlatenGlass]

I agree, that was likely a factor, also for the Herbert/Hakkinen example. I wonder how good Prost would have looked if that weight rule had applied throughout the 80s too

I've often wondered that. And David Coulthard has the same thoughts. https://youtube.com/...h?v=91TJssQtQOY

Edited by PlatenGlass, 23 December 2021 - 10:43.

[baggish]

Lauda was my hero too....I really didn't expect him to get anywhere close to Prost in 1984...but "the computer" as he was known before "the rat" came into play. He knew he wasn't as fast. He knew he wasn't as brave. But he could be more wily. And he was. 

Don't know when Lauda was known as "the computer" but he already had "the rat" nickname in 74-75.

Edited by baggish, 23 December 2021 - 11:06.

[PlatenGlass]

Also how Prost was unable to get close to Senna in qualifying at McLaren. And I think generally Prost struggled more against Senna than expected. Especially in 1989 when he was basically only ever ahead when Senna had problems.

[ensign14]

Also how Prost was unable to get close to Senna in qualifying at McLaren. And I think generally Prost struggled more against Senna than expected. Especially in 1989 when he was basically only ever ahead when Senna had problems.

Prost worked on race set-up rather than qualifying, knowing he would usually be front row regardless.  Senna scored three times as many poles as he did fastest laps.  Prost set more fastest laps than he got poles.  That's why Prost was known as The Professor.  Let the car do the work.  He was bemused at Mansell's more Captain Scott approach.