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2022 Mercedes-AMG W13 E Performance (Technical Thread)


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#10351 SwedeForceOne

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Posted 20 November 2022 - 15:19

Gives off a bit of spoiled brat calling this car a dog 😅 it was a good car but not a championship contender. They’ll most likely be back at the front in 2023 though.

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#10352 Muppetmad

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Posted 20 November 2022 - 15:24

The car was undeniably volatile at the start of the year, but settled down as time went on.



#10353 mclara

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Posted 20 November 2022 - 15:26

Gives off a bit of spoiled brat calling this car a dog it was a good car but not a championship contender. They’ll most likely be back at the front in 2023 though.

I think everyone at Mercedes and the cleaning lady thinks that Mercedes should be at the front. Hardly controversial



#10354 lewislorenzo

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Posted 20 November 2022 - 15:27

Can we close the thread 💥

😂😂

#10355 squarewun

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Posted 20 November 2022 - 15:29

Damn I wish it were February already.

#10356 gillesfan76

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Posted 20 November 2022 - 15:29

Can we even be sure they have the ominous issue that occured at the very early stages of development? And that the car is a monster in the wind tunnel? It's a rather handy way to say to hide that you've built a car that just isn't fast enough. Why would you keep developing this season's car when you know it's fundamentally flawed? You can only do that if you're 100% sure what the car will do once the fundamental problem is solved, I reckon. And why would Wolff keep spreading different messages: Sometimes this season is all about "learning for 2023", sometimes it's about winning at least one GP. Those are rather conflicting objectives.

 

I can't imagine a team like Merc needing almost a full season to figure out what the car's problem is - and not being able to solve it. I heard similar stories from RBR when the RB13 was a disappointment, but RBR were on top of things by the summer break.

 

To me, the W13 doesn't look like a car that's fundamentally flawed at all. It was overweight, it bounced and sometimes it didn't do what the drivers had asked the car to do. Those were problems 90% of the field had. Occam's razor would suggest the car is just what it is, no?

 

I think it’s a case of relativity. Their latest comments are that there is a certain philosophy or concept built into this car that results in it being draggy, but they know what that is and have a plan for a fix for next season. I suspect it’s the overall car’s aero efficiency that they’ve misjudged and that is probably a function of not being able to run the car as low as they want in order to stave off the bouncing. Raising the car means, they shed off too much floor induced downforce which they then try and recoup by adding more dirty downforce i.e rear wing, gurneys etc which shoots drag up.

 

So for next season I expect they will tune the aero for maximum efficiency at a higher ride height.



#10357 Lowgrip

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Posted 20 November 2022 - 15:34

For Lewis Hamilton's last hurrah, Mercedes should bring back this color theme. Even if for a few races. Menacing and sophisticated at the same time.

 

M2842391.JPG


Edited by Lowgrip, 20 November 2022 - 15:34.


#10358 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 20 November 2022 - 16:23

All the more reason not to put another penny in a car that's supposedly fundamentally flawed.

That’s okay if you know what you have done wrong…

#10359 ToniF1

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Posted 21 November 2022 - 12:11

 
George Russell

 

 

This could have almost been a memorable race, but we probably got more wrong than right today. We didn’t have the pace this weekend and tried as hard as we could, but this was actually one of the toughest race of the season for us. It’s a shame how the race panned out for me - I had a strong start fighting Carlos, but with the long first pit-stop and the five-second penalty meant the race was over for me. This race brought us back to reality, after our high in Brazil at a track that suited our car much better. Today simply highlighted what we already knew: that we have lots of improvements to make during the winter. Everyone in the team in Brackley and Brixworth is pushing as hard as they can and we’re headed in the right direction. And we are confident, we will have a stronger car next year.

 

 

 

 
Lewis Hamilton

 

This last race was just a good reminder of the whole year and I’m glad it’s over and that we can now look forward to next year. I had a strong start, but the car floor took a big hit during the contact with Carlos and everything else unfolded from there. When it happens, you just lose a little bit of performance, but the balance basically shifts forwards. It’s almost like you have loads of front wing and I had to wait for the stop to take out front wing – which did improve the balance. We had a difficult car all weekend and unfortunately, I had to retire right before the race finish because we lost hydraulic pressure. We will have the next couple of weeks at the factory, where we will work hard to make sure we can come back stronger next year so we will focus on that. I hope that the struggle this year will provide us with the strength and the tools to fight for more victories in the future – the team in Brackley and Brixworth deserve it, given how hard they’ve worked all year. So, we continue to get up and try – we need to show our strength across this winter and into next season.

 

 

Toto Wolff

 

Today we really didn’t perform well. We did all the mistakes we could possibly have made tonight: we didn’t have the pace, one driver breaking down and the other one running out of tyres - it’s a good summary of the challenges this season for us. We cooked the tyres in the first few laps because we attacked. The car seemed strong at the start, but then the front right just gave out and maybe that’s something we should’ve predicted. We knew that Abu Dhabi was going to be a difficult one for us so at least that prediction was accurate but then unfortunately we made mistakes we could’ve avoided. For us, this was a character-building season and we will put this car on display in the factory as a reminder. We had more bad moments than good ones, but the good ones were spectacular, like a week ago in Brazil, which reminded us how good it can be. It’s okay the way we feel right now but we’re pushing hard so we can be back next year!

 

 

Andrew Shovlin

 

It wasn’t the way we wanted to finish the year, but if we’re honest with ourselves it’s the way we deserved to. We weren’t good enough in many areas today and we’ll use that fact to focus our work over the winter. It’s been very difficult, but the challenge has brought the team together and it feels like we are more united than we’ve ever been. We knew our winning streak would come to an end one day and we always knew it would be the biggest challenge the team has ever faced, but if we are to look at the positives of 2022, it’s how the team has worked together, how we’ve looked for solutions, rather than excuses and we will do everything possible to get back into the title fight next year.

 

 

https://www.mercedes...milton-russell/

 

Lol for Toto puting the car on display as a reminder...whoever builds this again gets fired on the spot.

 

 

 

 

 



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#10360 Hank

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Posted 21 November 2022 - 14:08

I don't understand Toto's comment on the car to be put on a display. Does he mean that next year will be much better and the W14 will be a championship contender? I mean, W13 was not a bad car, it just wasnt quick enough to win races and championships. So, unless he thinks that next year they will be ready to fight the bulls, and the W13 should be a lesson learned, Toto's statement is confusing. The W14 could very well be like W13, not a race winning car on merit, but good enough to pick up scraps if something were to happen to RB. 



#10361 cbo

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Posted 21 November 2022 - 14:30

I don't understand Toto's comment on the car to be put on a display. Does he mean that next year will be much better and the W14 will be a championship contender? I mean, W13 was not a bad car, it just wasnt quick enough to win races and championships. So, unless he thinks that next year they will be ready to fight the bulls, and the W13 should be a lesson learned, Toto's statement is confusing. The W14 could very well be like W13, not a race winning car on merit, but good enough to pick up scraps if something were to happen to RB.


I think Toto believes the W13 to be an utter failure that need to sink into oblivion, only to reemerge when Mercedes is again in triumph, as the slave whispering in the triumphant emperors ear: "Remember you are a mere mortal, remember the W13..."

A team with 8 consecutive WCCs are not going to be happy with a difficult, struggling, third place car. Not by a longshot.

#10362 Clatter

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Posted 21 November 2022 - 14:57

Uneven friction would be the only reason for that surely. That being the case, it would suggest a faulty calliper, though I'm fairly convinced the callipers were changed last week. Is George suffering the same problem?

 


Uneven cooling? Could something with the aero mean one side is not getting cooled as much?

#10363 milestone 11

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Posted 21 November 2022 - 15:14

Uneven cooling? Could something with the aero mean one side is not getting cooled as much?

I've no idea what that could be, it is, supposedly, the front brakes which are suffering the disparate temperatures. A small difference in tyre pressure could also cause pulling to one side under braking, I wonder if the more loaded tyre is achieving sufficient heat to increase the pressure causing an imbalance. I find it difficult to believe that it could be coincidental having already changed callipers a few times.

#10364 Clatter

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Posted 21 November 2022 - 15:24

I've no idea what that could be, it is, supposedly, the front brakes which are suffering the disparate temperatures. A small difference in tyre pressure could also cause pulling to one side under braking, I wonder if the more loaded tyre is achieving sufficient heat to increase the pressure causing an imbalance. I find it difficult to believe that it could be coincidental having already changed callipers a few times.

 


It is an odd one. Never heard of this before, and they have had the problem for several races. If it was something to do with the actual brake hardware, you would think they would be on top of it.

#10365 milestone 11

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Posted 21 November 2022 - 15:31

It is an odd one. Never heard of this before, and they have had the problem for several races. If it was something to do with the actual brake hardware, you would think they would be on top of it.

Occasionally, it's possible to have a sticky calliper but they've changed them many times. An imbalance of tyre pressure has quite marked consequences on heavy braking, as little as 0.5lb. Though I don't for one moment believe that they haven't already investigated this. They changed both discs and pads on the grid at COTA.

Edited by milestone 11, 21 November 2022 - 15:36.


#10366 ToniF1

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Posted 23 November 2022 - 19:29



#10367 lewislorenzo

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Posted 24 November 2022 - 07:07

Please sort out the drag for next year!

#10368 RedRabbit

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Posted 24 November 2022 - 14:03

I think Toto believes the W13 to be an utter failure that need to sink into oblivion, only to reemerge when Mercedes is again in triumph, as the slave whispering in the triumphant emperors ear: "Remember you are a mere mortal, remember the W13..."

A team with 8 consecutive WCCs are not going to be happy with a difficult, struggling, third place car. Not by a longshot.


That's such an entitled viewpoint though. Only 1 other driver outside the top 3 teams got a podium, not?

Most of the grid would be quite satisfied driving this Merc to regular podiums and top 5s.

Top management constantly calling this car a dog or sh**box might not go down so well with engineers who have been in the sport a while and understand that teams don't win every year for eternity.

#10369 P123

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Posted 24 November 2022 - 14:10

That's such an entitled viewpoint though. Only 1 other driver outside the top 3 teams got a podium, not?

Most of the grid would be quite satisfied driving this Merc to regular podiums and top 5s.

Top management constantly calling this car a dog or sh**box might not go down so well with engineers who have been in the sport a while and understand that teams don't win every year for eternity.

 

To most of the grid that would be welcome progress.  For Mercedes it was an unwelcome step backwards.



#10370 pdac

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Posted 24 November 2022 - 15:41

That's such an entitled viewpoint though. Only 1 other driver outside the top 3 teams got a podium, not?

 

Would you expect him to have anything other than an entitled viewpoint? I don't think he's the only one in the paddock with that attitude.



#10371 Bartonz20let

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Posted 24 November 2022 - 16:56

That's such an entitled viewpoint though.


A winners mentality

Winners aren't satisfied with second and I'd hope the engineers are winners or they shouldn't be at a team like merc.

#10372 alframsey

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Posted 24 November 2022 - 19:03

You know, I started out hating this car - I thought it was dog ugly compare to the rest, had a very very strange shape, and it was slow and difficult. It looked as stiffly sprung as any of the cars Lewis drove at McLaren. In the end I grew to love this misunderstood, maligned and ill conceived racing car; its flashes of brilliance kept me imagining what could be, if only it could be tamed. That crowning moment in Brazil was something to behold, redemption for her and the team which designed her. She wasn't all conquering like her predecessors but, like a warrior, she reached the summit and is a worthy addition to the factory.

 

Can't wait to see the back of her though.


Edited by alframsey, 24 November 2022 - 19:08.


#10373 Huffer

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Posted 24 November 2022 - 19:26

To me, the W13 doesn't look like a car that's fundamentally flawed at all. It was overweight, it bounced and sometimes it didn't do what the drivers had asked the car to do. Those were problems 90% of the field had. Occam's razor would suggest the car is just what it is, no?

 

 

There's a fair bit of selective reasoning going on there. It wasn't as if they developed the car all season, and the developments that they WERE developing were aimed at trying to iron out / balance the issue that the car was suffering from. That's not the sign of a car that's behaving as expected or just has a certain setup window - that's a car with an inherent issue, and not just that, one that they can't easily solve. 
 

And if you could't see that the car had inherent issues, then you need your eyes checking. It suffered from, not just worse porpoising compared to the front runners, but to such a degree that the car was extremely unstable on corner entry and under braking. Trying to pass that off as "other cars had that issue to" is ignoring that different teams suffered the same issue but to different degrees. Other teams could at least lessen the effects with a minimal compromise on performance, but Mercedes had to change the setup to such a degree that their performance was pretty dire. 

 

That's a design flaw in the entire concept. The car was just a bad 'un compared to the front runners, and that's all there is to it. 



#10374 ToniF1

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Posted 02 December 2022 - 21:39

Can i open W14 thread :p

 



#10375 mclara

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Posted 03 December 2022 - 14:37

Can i open W14 thread :p

 

 

Some encouraging stuff there from Scarbs. And he says what some people have been saying in this thread for a while.

If Mercedes can fix their issues with how to generate downforce as intended, drag will not be an issue and they can fight at the front again.

Which again adresses the point why Mercedes had to figure out where they went wrong and not just start over mid season



#10376 lewislorenzo

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Posted 03 December 2022 - 16:25

Some encouraging stuff there from Scarbs. And he says what some people have been saying in this thread for a while.
If Mercedes can fix their issues with how to generate downforce as intended, drag will not be an issue and they can fight at the front again.
Which again adresses the point why Mercedes had to figure out where they went wrong and not just start over mid season

A lot of low hanging fruit to be had. Plus they are overweight too but yeah a big if😅

Edited by lewislorenzo, 03 December 2022 - 16:25.


#10377 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 04 December 2022 - 00:08

Others will advance too. Red Bull will surely shave weight

#10378 Goron3

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Posted 04 December 2022 - 11:29

Others will advance too. Red Bull will surely shave weight


Red Bull stopped developing the 2022 car in August which makes you wonder what they've got planned.

I also suspect the car will be developed in an even more extreme way that lends itself well to Max.

#10379 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 04 December 2022 - 15:57

Red Bull stopped developing the 2022 car in August which makes you wonder what they've got planned.

I also suspect the car will be developed in an even more extreme way that lends itself well to Max.

I find that hard to believe given the rules stability

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#10380 ToniF1

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Posted 05 December 2022 - 19:35

2023 seat fit

 



#10381 lewislorenzo

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Posted 05 December 2022 - 20:26

2023 seat fit

https://www.youtube....h?v=9OediH5s8dk


Car definitely look’s lighter😂

#10382 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 05 December 2022 - 20:43

Ominous... they're not even using sidepods..😝🤣

#10383 heyu

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Posted 05 December 2022 - 23:12

Was this ever posted maybe in a different article?

 

https://formula1news...ercedes-change/



#10384 ToniF1

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Posted 07 December 2022 - 17:53

-Toto saying that they solved the underlying problem of porpoising but not all could have been implemented on 2022. car but will be for 2023. They are changing some of the architecture and the layout of the car.

-He is proud about the team being bold with zero pods and that zero pod concept had nothing to do with the problems.

-He is happy with the engine.

-They think they had the biggest peek downforce just couldn't get it to work like they wanted.

 

Toto Wolff: Falling Behind, Fighting Back | Beyond The Grid | Official F1 Podcast

 

 


Edited by ToniF1, 07 December 2022 - 17:55.


#10385 lewislorenzo

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Posted 07 December 2022 - 18:00

-Toto saying that they solved the underlying problem of porpoising but not all could have been implemented on 2022. car but will be for 2023. They are changing some of the architecture and the layout of the car.
-He is proud about the team being bold with zero pods and that zero pod concept had nothing to do with the problems.
-He is happy with the engine.
-They think they had the biggest peek downforce just couldn't get it to work like they wanted.

Toto Wolff: Falling Behind, Fighting Back | Beyond The Grid | Official F1 Podcast


https://www.youtube....=EHH-JeQViGA&t=

I am optimistic for next year😅the car was so flawed and running comprised but was still able to perform alright. Don’t wanna get my hopes up though

Edited by lewislorenzo, 07 December 2022 - 18:02.


#10386 ToniF1

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Posted 07 December 2022 - 18:03

I just seen first 15 min, maybe you will find more lol



#10387 lewislorenzo

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Posted 07 December 2022 - 19:03

Will wait for testing😂

#10388 w1Y

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Posted 07 December 2022 - 21:26

Will wait for first qualy and race

#10389 ToniF1

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Posted 08 December 2022 - 17:39



#10390 ToniF1

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Posted 25 December 2022 - 17:03

“At Silverstone [for the shakedown], we were in the middle of a storm – it was about the worst conditions we’ve ever run a car in,” Shovlin told Motorsport.com.

“That certainly doesn’t allow for very clear and sensible shakedown running for the filming day.

“But that car – so the car that we then took to Barcelona – yes, you could get porpoising and we were running the car very high anyway on ride heights given the weather and given that it was the first running of the car.

“We did lower the ride heights to more normal levels at Silverstone and saw that you could get this phenomenon. But, we didn’t really know much about it and what was causing it.

“So, going to Barcelona was therefore a case of understanding: ‘How can we run the car? What are the problems? How can you mitigate what was happening with the porpoising?’

 

“At the time about the best thing you could do was just lift the car off the ground, give up performance and manage it that way.

“That car was defined much, much earlier in the development programme than the race one package.

“But the issue… at the time in Barcelona, we thought: ‘We’re not the quickest, but we don’t think we we’re in a bad place’.

“Because we were expecting to add good performance with that Bahrain package.

“The issue was that when we fitted it, the porpoising was a whole other level.

“Most of the performance that we intended to add didn’t materialise because we had to lift the car even further and at that point you couldn’t get rid of the bouncing.”

 

https://www.motorspo...-test/10414472/

 



#10391 ToniF1

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Posted 11 January 2023 - 22:31

Fm-OCCim-X0-BMw7o-J.jpg

 

 

https://twitter.com/...276075810869254

 

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