72 replies to this topic

[404KF2]

I don't think Michelin's into the cheese tire concept anyway, so the point's doubly moot.

[Secretariat]

https://asia.nikkei....-by-Japan-s-BBS

 

 

BBS Japan, a wheel maker under the umbrella of the Maedakosen group, has signed four- and three-year contracts with the governing bodies of F1 and NASCAR, respectively. BBS was likely selected for its track record or supplying F1 teams.

 

Depending on what is asked for in a future tire tender, it stands to reason standardizing the wheels makes it easier for another tire manufacturer to produce tires. On the other hand, may cement the idea that tire manufacturer variety will come in the form of different sole suppliers for different series as opposed to competition within series.  

[pdac]

Multiple tyre suppliers would work if tyre supply was get equal to all teams and the tyre suppliers, so instead of teams only using tyres exclusively from 1 tyre supplier, teams rotate through the different tyre suppliers on a race to race basis.

 

Each tyre supplier homolgates 4 dry compounds & 2 wet compounds for the season and brings 2 dry & 2 wet compounds to each race.

 

2 tyre suppliers after Friday practice each teams choose 1 dry & 1 wet compound from each supplier to use for rest of weekend.

This creates 4 dry tyre combinations using Pirelli & Michelin for example - Pirelli soft/Michelin soft, Pirelli hard/Michelin soft, Pirelli soft/Michelin hard, Pirelli hard/Michelin hard and 2 wet tyre combinations Pirelli inter/Michelin wet, Pirelli wet/Michelin inter,

 

3 tyre suppliers or more then before the start of the season each team assigned 2 of the available tyres suppliers for each race.

Team 1 tyre supplier A & B, Team 2 tyre supplier A & C, team 3 tyre supplier B & C, etc

 

This way all tyre suppliers supply all teams with the same amount of tyres per season creating similar supply costs for each supplier, while still creating a tyre competion. If there is 3 or more competing tyre suppliers than teams will be using tyres from different suppliers at each race which lead to greater variation in each teams performnce race to race as the different tyre impact car performance.

 

One problem with that is that tyre performance is not just about the compound, the construction and the car its fitted to. The road surface also plays an important part. So it's quite likely that the tyres from one manufacturers would work well at one circuit, but not another. It would be very much about who lucked out and got the right manufacturer at each circuit and by rotating them, it's possible that one team could luck out and get the best tyre at every circuit.

 

So, I agree, it's very much just another gimmick.

[Secretariat]

I don't think Michelin's into the cheese tire concept anyway, so the point's doubly moot.

Michelin is not the only other supplier. Nevertheless, in principal I don't disagree. However, what happens if the formula moves to longer life tires given some of the sustainability objectives of the FIA? Specifically regarding Michelin, I think it is pretty clear they can make long life tires with good performance.

[ray b]

what about we have the current one make range of tyres HH to SS

 

but let the teams run what ever in any combination  SS r/f and a HH l/r if that is faster

instead of the no mix no match rules and limited tyre  selection  by some official by track

 

keep the one make range of tyres but free pick how they are used ?

[Sterzo]

Why have varied tyre compounds? There's one wet, and one intermediate, why not one dry? That way we get racing between cars instead of racing between tyres.

[PayasYouRace]

what about we have the current one make range of tyres HH to SS

 

but let the teams run what ever in any combination  SS r/f and a HH l/r if that is faster

instead of the no mix no match rules and limited tyre  selection  by some official by track

 

keep the one make range of tyres but free pick how they are used ?

 

So I get that SS would be Super Soft. So what's HH? Hardy Hard?

[shure]

Why have varied tyre compounds? There's one wet, and one intermediate, why not one dry? That way we get racing between cars instead of racing between tyres.

would kinda defeat the object of the tires in the first place.  Their whole raison d'etre is to act as a means of controlling the race via pit stops.  If you only had eg one Soft compound all year, then that might last 15 laps at one circuit and 40 at another.  They select the compounds depending on the characteristics of the circuit

[ray b]

So I get that SS would be Super Soft. So what's HH? Hardy Hard?

hardest hard or hyper hard

vs softest soft or super soft

 

we currently have 5 types of tyre with 3 labeled soft

why I do not know

[pdac]

Why have varied tyre compounds? There's one wet, and one intermediate, why not one dry? That way we get racing between cars instead of racing between tyres.

 

This

[PayasYouRace]

hardest hard or hyper hard

vs softest soft or super soft

 

we currently have 5 types of tyre with 3 labeled soft

why I do not know

We currently have 5 compounds labelled 1 to 5. They’re labelled hard, medium and soft depending on the selection. I think you’re a few years out of date.

[Sterzo]

would kinda defeat the object of the tires in the first place.  Their whole raison d'etre is to act as a means of controlling the race via pit stops.  If you only had eg one Soft compound all year, then that might last 15 laps at one circuit and 40 at another.  They select the compounds depending on the characteristics of the circuit

Going for a single compound of dry tyre would hardly defeat the object of tyres. You mean it would defeat the object of using cheese tyres to "spice up the show" instead of addressing the real problems. In fact we are, at last, seeing an attempt to address those problems with the 2022 cars. So it's exactly the right time to get rid of the joke tyres.

Edited by Sterzo, 16 January 2022 - 17:07.

[PayasYouRace]

Going for a single compound of dry tyre would hardly defeat the object of tyres. You mean it would defeat the object of using cheese tyres to "spice up the show" instead of addressing the real problems. In fact we are, at last, seeing an attempt to address those problems with the 2022 cars. So it's exactly the right time to get rid of the joke tyres.

 

Even with other single suppliers at other times, compound options were always a good thing.

 

I can see why getting rid of the mandatory two compound rule would be a positive. But I think it’s important to keep some options.

[pdac]

Even with other single suppliers at other times, compound options were always a good thing.

 

I can see why getting rid of the mandatory two compound rule would be a positive. But I think it’s important to keep some options.

 

Have a couple of options available, but make it that, after practice, the teams have to opt for a single compound to be used in quali and race.

[PayasYouRace]

Have a couple of options available, but make it that, after practice, the teams have to opt for a single compound to be used in quali and race.

 

The 1997 system. Not sure when that was changed. Did it last until Brigestone single supply in 2007?

[Bleu]

The 1997 system. Not sure when that was changed. Did it last until Brigestone single supply in 2007?

 

Yes. And the explanation Bridgestone gave (who called for the mandatory two-compound use) was that with that older rule, half of the rules brought to the race track were never used which was too much.

 

Of course, the talk of two compounds keep tyre manufacturer better in the spotlight which may be the unofficial reason for the change.

[Secretariat]

Given that we are talking about the future and the conversation has also expanded to compounds (a good thing), what about the development of "super compounds"? Compounds that can be used in various dry conditions with a separate wet compound. To use Michelin again, they created hybrid slick intermediate tires some years ago for LMP's. I will raise again the factors related to sustainability and whether the future will involve the manufacture and use of less tires. A functional equivalent to "all season" radials for the dry and intermediate conditions.

[Secretariat]

 

 

Speaking at a Pirelli pre-season launch in Monaco on Tuesday, the Italian tyre manufacturer’s head of F1 and car racing Mario Isola explained why he thinks the days of free choice may be over. “We had to find this solution for the pandemic to be quicker in reaction,” explained Isola about the current fixed supply stance. “But then the teams came back to us saying, actually the system is quite good. We want to keep it for the future. So it was not our decision at the end to continue with this fixed allocation.” Isola explained that the teams felt much more comfortable being told what tyres were being picked for them, than having to devote resources to working out the best option themselves.

 

 

 

Wanted to add this to the chain of discussion regarding tire choice. If the teams are happy to not put in effort regarding tire choice, perhaps being given 6 sets of 1 Super Compound TM  tire  (haha) in the future is something they also will be happy with. 

 

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/why-pirellis-emergency-f1-fixed-supply-rule-looks-set-to-stay/7391305/

Edited by Secretariat, 19 January 2022 - 21:19.

[Secretariat]

The short version, I resurrect this thread given the on going years discussion and relevance of how critical the tires are in terms of temperature regulation, warm up procedures, wear, and so on which are all managed through the filter of one supplier. Pirelli's contract reportedly runs through 2027 with an option for 2028.  Some post ideas to consider: 

 

• Does the FIA & F1 tweak raceability with tire competition? 
• Do they re-introduce free choice of compounds?
• Multiple companies submitting a tender and multiple companies being asked to provide tires
• Those tire companies can be given development tokens to try and balance any performance difference, i.e. a tire BoP.  homologated deg profile

[Stoffel]

 

The short version, I resurrect this thread given the on going years discussion and relevance of how critical the tires are in terms of temperature regulation, warm up procedures, wear, and so on which are all managed through the filter of one supplier. Pirelli's contract reportedly runs through 2027 with an option for 2028.  Some post ideas to consider: 

 

• Does the FIA & F1 tweak raceability with tire competition? 
• Do they re-introduce free choice of compounds?
• Multiple companies submitting a tender and multiple companies being asked to provide tires
• Those tire companies can be given development tokens to try and balance any performance difference, i.e. a tire BoP.  homologated deg profile

 

 

• How much money does Pirelli pay for trackside advertising?

 

Because unfortunately that's the most important factor for Liberty/FOM in deciding who will get the next contract...

[Secretariat]

• How much money does Pirelli pay for trackside advertising?

 

Because unfortunately that's the most important factor for Liberty/FOM in deciding who will get the next contract...

 

Given that the thread is not only speaking on contracts and the tender itself, do you have an opinion on whether "trackside advertising" has impact on proposals and/or the implementation of tire regulations such as mixing compounds, free tire choice and so on.  

[PayasYouRace]

 

The short version, I resurrect this thread given the on going years discussion and relevance of how critical the tires are in terms of temperature regulation, warm up procedures, wear, and so on which are all managed through the filter of one supplier. Pirelli's contract reportedly runs through 2027 with an option for 2028.  Some post ideas to consider: 

 

• Does the FIA & F1 tweak raceability with tire competition? 
• Do they re-introduce free choice of compounds?
• Multiple companies submitting a tender and multiple companies being asked to provide tires
• Those tire companies can be given development tokens to try and balance any performance difference, i.e. a tire BoP.  homologated deg profile

 

My thoughts on your questions:

• Tyre completion adds lots of expense for very little reward. Previous posts in this thread probably cover that well enough. You have tyres becoming an even more dominant factor on who wins on the day. Are there any major series with open completion between tyre manufacturers nowadays?
• Theres a good chance that if there was a new supplier there might be a rethink of how to manage the rules regarding compound usage. It’s a bit open ended as a question.
• I could see a tender process being opened up if more than one company expresses interest. But very unlikely you’d have more than one company accepted. See point 1.
• See point 1.

[Secretariat]

 

My thoughts on your questions:

• Tyre completion adds lots of expense for very little reward. Previous posts in this thread probably cover that well enough. You have tyres becoming an even more dominant factor on who wins on the day. Are there any major series with open completion between tyre manufacturers nowadays?
• Theres a good chance that if there was a new supplier there might be a rethink of how to manage the rules regarding compound usage. It’s a bit open ended as a question.
• I could see a tender process being opened up if more than one company expresses interest. But very unlikely you’d have more than one company accepted. See point 1.
• See point 1.

 

 

Thank you. I won't answer point for point as it seems the bottom line is cost. As we have seen with budget caps in F1 and other sports, there are tools to manage costs. In my opinion, we don't see multiple suppliers in direct competition with each other much anymore is because the marketing/commercial interests are outstripping the competitive interests...the racing is somewhat incidental; there is no incentive to compete. Unless, the entities/series/governing body making the request for tires change the parameters of the tender/RFP to ask for something different. If tires are so important to many variables in racing, then perhaps they should in fact be treated as important. Seems the governing body and its competitors have gone far down a road in terms of rule sets and development to improve the racing with not many lasting results. 

 

As for multiple companies being accepted, that would be a start to potentially address the raceability issue by adding more variables for teams to consider. More variability introduces more chance and less predictability. More often we are seeing less tools available for shaking up the order; so much so that the success or failure of teams seems to be predicated on one person; and if they retained his services, all will be solved, as has been the case with Newey. 

 

Still, given that commercial interests are a fact of life, this is where afore mentioned tools such as budget caps, development jokers, BoP, and so on come into play. Manufacturers will have a fixed cost and development is regulated but we have some competition and teams have more choices.