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Autosport best drivers of the century so far


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#1 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 07 January 2022 - 22:01

An article on Autosport+ that's worth discussing about.

Pos Driver Wins Years 1 Lewis Hamilton 7 2009, 2015, 2017-21 =2 Sebastian Vettel 3 2010-11, 2013 =2 Michael Schumacher 3 2002-04 =4 Fernando Alonso  2 2006, 2012 =4 Daniel Ricciardo 2 2014, 2016 =6  Sebastien Loeb 1 2005 =6 Kimi Raikkonen 1 2007 =6 Robert Kubica 1 2008

 

The most interesting table though,  is this one (selecting just part)

Pos Driver (main series) Total Points Top 50 entries 1 Fernando Alonso (F1) 810  18 2 Lewis Hamilton (F1) 798 17 3 Sebastian Vettel (F1) 573 15 4 Scott Dixon (IndyCar) 558 15 5 Jenson Button (F1) 515 16 6 Sebastien Loeb (WRC) 513 12 7 Kimi Raikkonen (F1) 508  15 8 Sebastien Ogier (WRC) 496  12 9 Mark Webber (F1) 464  14 10 Nico Rosberg (F1) 407 12 11 Jimmie Johnson (NASCAR)  386  12 12 Daniel Ricciardo (F1) 364  10 13 Nico Hulkenberg (F1) 359  12 14 Max Verstappen (F1) 352 8 15 Valtteri Bottas (F1) 332  11 16 Will Power (IndyCar) 319 11 17 Rubens Barrichello (F1) 306 9 18 Jarno Trulli (F1)  284 8 19 Sebastien Buemi (WEC/FE) 279  8 20 Juan Pablo Montoya (F1) 270 8 21 Carlos Sainz Jr (F1) 268 8 22 Sergio Perez (F1)  265 10 23 Michael Schumacher (F1) 258 6 24 Felipe Massa (F1) 258  9

Hulkenberg in front of Schumacher, Massa, Verstappen?

 

edit: I have to fix this, the post was messed up by the copy paste...


Edited by MikeTekRacing, 07 January 2022 - 22:02.


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#2 ARTGP

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Posted 07 January 2022 - 22:21

An article on Autosport+ that's worth discussing about.

Pos Driver Wins Years
1 Lewis Hamilton 7 2009, 2015, 2017-21
=2 Sebastian Vettel 3 2010-11, 2013
=2 Michael Schumacher 3 2002-04
=4 Fernando Alonso  2 2006, 2012
=4 Daniel Ricciardo 2 2014, 2016
=6  Sebastien Loeb 1 2005
=6 Kimi Raikkonen 1 2007
=6 Robert Kubica 1 2008

 

The most interesting table though,  is this one (selecting just part)

Pos Driver (main series) Total Points Top 50 entries
1 Fernando Alonso (F1) 810  18
2 Lewis Hamilton (F1) 798 17
3 Sebastian Vettel (F1) 573 15
4 Scott Dixon (IndyCar) 558 15
5 Jenson Button (F1) 515 16
6 Sebastien Loeb (WRC) 513 12
7 Kimi Raikkonen (F1) 508  15
8 Sebastien Ogier (WRC) 496  12
9 Mark Webber (F1) 464  14
10 Nico Rosberg (F1) 407 12
11 Jimmie Johnson (NASCAR)  386  12
12 Daniel Ricciardo (F1) 364  10
13 Nico Hulkenberg (F1) 359  12
14 Max Verstappen (F1) 352 8
15 Valtteri Bottas (F1) 332  11
16 Will Power (IndyCar) 319 11
17 Rubens Barrichello (F1) 306 9
18 Jarno Trulli (F1)  284 8
19 Sebastien Buemi (WEC/FE) 279  8
20 Juan Pablo Montoya (F1) 270 8
21 Carlos Sainz Jr (F1) 268 8
22 Sergio Perez (F1)  265 10
23 Michael Schumacher (F1) 258 6
24 Felipe Massa (F1) 258  9

Hulkenberg in front of Schumacher, Massa, Verstappen?

 

edit: I have to fix this, the post was messed up by the copy paste...

 

I have no idea what the first or the second list is trying to communicate. 


Edited by ARTGP, 07 January 2022 - 22:27.


#3 PlatenGlass

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Posted 07 January 2022 - 22:31

It seems like because of the scoring system, you get loads of points just for featuring, so it's biased towards long careers rather than peak level.



#4 YamahaV10

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Posted 07 January 2022 - 22:39

Hamiltons stats need to be adjusted to make up for the longer seasons compared to Micheal Schumacher. If you do that, Schumacher is still ahead by a couple wins or something

 

Driver of the century would have to be some combination of Jimmy Johnson and Hamilton


Edited by YamahaV10, 07 January 2022 - 22:42.


#5 SpatialTech

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Posted 07 January 2022 - 23:08

Hamiltons stats need to be adjusted to make up for the longer seasons compared to Micheal Schumacher. If you do that, Schumacher is still ahead by a couple wins or something

Driver of the century would have to be some combination of Jimmy Johnson and Hamilton

Don’t they do that by putting them into a ratio i.e. how many races won by how many they partook in?

Jim Clark’s figures still outstanding.

Edited by SpatialTech, 07 January 2022 - 23:09.


#6 Collombin

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Posted 07 January 2022 - 23:29

Jim Clark’s figures still outstanding.


Not compared to Fangio or Ascari, but this is a 21st century thread anyway. It's so annoying that they kept changing numbers in those days, it means we have to go to the extra effort of typing out their names.

#7 SpatialTech

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Posted 07 January 2022 - 23:30

Not compared to Fangio or Ascari, but this is a 21st century thread anyway. It's so annoying that they kept changing numbers in those days, it means we have to go to the extra effort of typing out their names.


Or maybe you could have actually read what I did, you know, how tricky would that have been ;)

#8 Collombin

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Posted 07 January 2022 - 23:40

After half a litre of rum? Well, reasonably tricky for a lightweight like me actually.

#9 jjcale

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Posted 07 January 2022 - 23:41

Guys,

 

Wins = first place in Autosport annual top 50 list ..... wins =/= races won in F1

 

Points = total points since 2001 based points for place on the Autosport annual top 50 list

 

 

Would be interesting to see an average of the "points" per season .... just to take away FA's advantage of having been an active top level driver since at least 2001, and therefore having the most total points.



#10 SpatialTech

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Posted 07 January 2022 - 23:44

After half a litre of rum? Well, reasonably tricky for a lightweight like me actually.


Well, it really was quite easy, but good man. Hope you enjoyed it.

#11 jonpollak

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Posted 07 January 2022 - 23:49

Scott Dixon… wife sweeter than all others combined.
Just sayin.
Jp

#12 Yamamoto

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 00:32

I could've sworn Nick Heidfeld was top in 2009.



#13 Anderis

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 00:53

I could've sworn Nick Heidfeld was top in 2009.

That would've been some controversial verdict, not only because awarding it to a driver who only finished 13th in WDC would be unprecedented but Heidfeld wasn't even the best BMW driver that year (although he beat Kubica in WDC by 2 points- that wasn't on merit- Kubica was the faster driver that year but luck went in Heidfeld's favour, such as Kubica losing a certain podium without his fault in Australia and Nick getting a freak result in Malaysia where the race was red flagged at a perfect time for him as he was only temporarily 2nd due to being out of sync with the rest of the drivers in terms of tyre changes while Robert couldn't even score because he had an early mechanical after outqualifying Heidfeld).



#14 CSF

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 01:01

:lol:



#15 Yamamoto

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 07:40

That would've been some controversial verdict, not only because awarding it to a driver who only finished 13th in WDC would be unprecedented but Heidfeld wasn't even the best BMW driver that year (although he beat Kubica in WDC by 2 points- that wasn't on merit- Kubica was the faster driver that year but luck went in Heidfeld's favour, such as Kubica losing a certain podium without his fault in Australia and Nick getting a freak result in Malaysia where the race was red flagged at a perfect time for him as he was only temporarily 2nd due to being out of sync with the rest of the drivers in terms of tyre changes while Robert couldn't even score because he had an early mechanical after outqualifying Heidfeld).

 

But his hair was so thick and lovely!



#16 danmills

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 08:43

Another nonsense tainted stat release.

All series should be treated as points out if 100, and series wins, poles, fastest laps etc divided the same way to make it remotely comparable.

Ie, a 10 race season divided by 10, a 17 race season divided by 10.

Is winning 10 out of 10 the same as winning 10 out of 20? No. One is dominating. 100 versus 50 percent. Work with ratios and percentages.

 

But even thats just on results. You should be able to throw in overtaking number variables but thats not necessarily relatable to drivers in other series like Loeb versus say Alonso.

 

Not enough common stats to really make an ultimate list.

 

Maybe percentage ahead of nearest rival in races?

Percentage swing of points versus team mate?

 

Things like that that identify the driver against immediate competitors more specifically how much superior in a wider range of areas.


Edited by danmills, 08 January 2022 - 08:48.


#17 Collombin

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 08:54

Is winning 29 out of 30 worse than 10 out of 10?

Stats themselves are just stats, they shouldn't be used to rate drivers. If stats are the only info available then buy some books or something.

#18 danmills

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 09:23

True, thats another taint. But thats where other relatable stats support it or as you've highlighted show its flaws. A 29/30 race season is possibly not as gruelling as a season that may only have 10 races three times as long? Or not.

 

Or relating relevance to winning three 10/10 seasons or one 29/30 year. Are we rewarding outright wins or celebrating consistency over a career? 

 

Theres no end to it, its just stats, but the original list is quite funny.


Edited by danmills, 08 January 2022 - 09:26.


#19 Bleu

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 14:40

So is it 50 points for the top driver and then one point less for each position?

 

It would make it absolutely biased towards those who always feature on the list.

 

10 times on the list, each time on top would give 500 points.

15 times on the list, each time on 15th would give 540 points.



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#20 SpatialTech

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 14:50

Is winning 29 out of 30 worse than 10 out of 10?
Stats themselves are just stats, they shouldn't be used to rate drivers. If stats are the only info available then buy some books or something.


Normalisation is good in cases like this as well, but I agree.

#21 ProSportsCars

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 16:10

Best Drivers since 2006(post-Schumacher era):

 

1. Hamilton

2. Alonso

3. Raikkonen

4. Rosberg

5. Ricciardo

6. Verstappen

7. Leclerc

8. Vettel

9. Kubica

10. Button



#22 messy

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 18:00

Verstappen behind Ricciardo and Rosberg? OK.

#23 SpatialTech

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 19:33

Verstappen behind Ricciardo and Rosberg? OK.


I think that’s more about time served. Verstappen has only been in since, what, 2014? Gives a lot of the others 8 years on him.

#24 PitViperRacing

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 20:16

I think that’s more about time served. Verstappen has only been in since, what, 2014? Gives a lot of the others 8 years on him.


This makes sense, and I can understand him being behind Rosberg. Rosberg has been pretty successful overall in the lost schumacher era.

Being behind Ricciardo is a tad off to me. Only because verstappen has more wins, championships and beat Ricciardo as a teammate between 2006 and now. Unsure how Ricciardo eeks ahead of him?

#25 Secretariat

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 20:42

I will admit I don't know much about the methodology of the Autosport rankings, but my opinion in general is race driver analytics is still poor in comparison to stick and ball sports (odd when you are talking about a technology sport). For example, there is a stat or variable to review for virtually everything in American Baseball (e.g. Major League Baseball).

 

From a layman's point of view, its a conversation I have had off/on for like 15 years. In that time I have not seen ranking analytics that make sense or make a proper attempt to objectively "rank" drivers. Happy to be corrected if there are good ones these days that exist.



#26 Collombin

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 20:57

Happy to be corrected if there are good ones these days that exist.


There are not and there never can be. Thankfully.

#27 ARTGP

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 20:59

Best Drivers since 2006(post-Schumacher era):

 

1. Hamilton

2. Alonso

3. Raikkonen

4. Rosberg

5. Ricciardo

6. Verstappen

7. Leclerc

8. Vettel

9. Kubica

10. Button

 

Kimi that high up based on his post '06 form is questionable. His post '06 form was very beatable over a season. 


Edited by ARTGP, 08 January 2022 - 21:00.


#28 Secretariat

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 21:07

There are not and there never can be. Thankfully.

I find analytics a supplement, not a replacement, to what one's eyes sees in addition to all of the other info we have had over the years. So, given that these rankings and things similar to these type of rankings aren't going anywhere, I prefer that they are actually considerate of variables that do create some semblance of objectivity.  



#29 Anderis

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 21:13

Verstappen behind Ricciardo and Rosberg? OK.

1. Don't have any understanding of what the list represents

2. Sarcastically mock it for not being what you expected to be even though it was never supposed to

 

Kimi that high up based on his post '06 form is questionable. His post '06 form was very beatable over a season. 

The same case as the above. Kimi is not 3rd because he was judged to be so good but but because he spent more seasons accumulating those points. Being 15th 5 times is worth more than being 1st 2 times and not being featured 3 times because of being too young.

 

To anyone who hasn't figured out yet: they sum up the points from all of the Autosport top50 drivers rankings from years 2002-2021. It's not an attempt to objectively judge drivers based on their peak performance, it just sums up their points from all of those years, and obviously drivers with shorter careers were not able to accumulate as many points.
 



#30 Collombin

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 21:21

I prefer that they are actually considerate of variables that do create some semblance of objectivity.


But how much emphasis you choose to put on each of those many variables is a matter of personal opinion and preference, so the only possible approach is subjective. It doesn't have to mean biased.

#31 Secretariat

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 21:27

But how much emphasis you choose to put on each of those many variables is a matter of personal opinion and preference, so the only possible approach is subjective. It doesn't have to mean biased.

Agree with that and cant put a percentage on it. But when we have subjective discussions its helpful to have additional supporting details to have those discussion. Some folks would use it, others not. Nevertheless, I put stats and analytics in "supporting details" category. I would never say, "see driver x is #1 on this list, so that means he is the best, etc." 



#32 messy

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 22:14

1. Don't have any understanding of what the list represents
2. Sarcastically mock it for not being what you expected to be even though it was never supposed to

I know what it’s meant to mean thanks, and was just expressing surprise because personally I’d have said Verstappen and even Vettel had made far more of an impact and were better drivers across 21st Century F1 than Ricciardo and Rosberg. I’m not mocking it - I’m giving an opinion on it. Surely if you post something on here, you’re inviting opinions. If I was going to mock one comment on this thread, it wouldn’t be that one!….

Edited by messy, 08 January 2022 - 22:21.


#33 SpatialTech

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Posted 09 January 2022 - 10:28

Kimi that high up based on his post '06 form is questionable. His post '06 form was very beatable over a season.


He was world champion in 2007?

#34 Collombin

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Posted 09 January 2022 - 10:43

He was world champion in 2007?


Because others dropped the ball. I seem to recall his own team criticising his form mid-season.

#35 SpatialTech

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Posted 09 January 2022 - 10:44

Because others dropped the ball. I seem to recall his own team criticising his form mid-season.

Ok, but even so, he’s 3rd, worst case, so his post 2006 isn’t bad, given that the Mclaren was notably the better car.

I’d say in the Renault he did fairly well too, and given the contract he negotiated, you could imagine Renault didn’t think the car was that good either.

Edited by SpatialTech, 09 January 2022 - 10:45.


#36 shure

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Posted 09 January 2022 - 10:56

Best Drivers since 2006(post-Schumacher era):

 

1. Hamilton

2. Alonso

3. Raikkonen

4. Rosberg

5. Ricciardo

6. Verstappen

7. Leclerc

8. Vettel

9. Kubica

10. Button

I'll add my voice to the Kimi query.  The only way it makes any kind of sense for me to have Kimi above Vettel is to include pre-2006, and even there I'd question it.  But post 2006 there was only one year that Seb wasn't driving, and from 2009 on it's hard to imagine anyone voting Kimi better than him in any of those years (and Kimi wasn't even around for a couple of those years anyway), or Kimi having any demonstrably better metrics of any kind in that period.

 

In fact, the list would probably make a lot more sense if you swapped them, although I'd certainly query Ricciardo being that high up, but that's another story



#37 SpatialTech

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Posted 09 January 2022 - 12:12

I'll add my voice to the Kimi query.  The only way it makes any kind of sense for me to have Kimi above Vettel is to include pre-2006, and even there I'd question it.  But post 2006 there was only one year that Seb wasn't driving, and from 2009 on it's hard to imagine anyone voting Kimi better than him in any of those years (and Kimi wasn't even around for a couple of those years anyway), or Kimi having any demonstrably better metrics of any kind in that period.
 
In fact, the list would probably make a lot more sense if you swapped them, although I'd certainly query Ricciardo being that high up, but that's another story


I’d agree with a lot of things about Kimi, but he was in the second best car in 2007 and won, and he did well in the Renault. Otherwise, yes, I don’t see anything in him post 2007.

#38 Dhillon

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Posted 09 January 2022 - 12:30

I’d agree with a lot of things about Kimi, but he was in the second best car in 2007 and won, and he did well in the Renault. Otherwise, yes, I don’t see anything in him post 2007.


Ferrari was the better car with more poles, FLs and Wins but the drivers were inconsistent.
Schumacher would have easily won the championship.

#39 SpatialTech

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Posted 09 January 2022 - 13:07

Ferrari was the better car with more poles, FLs and Wins but the drivers were inconsistent.
Schumacher would have easily won the championship.

Kimi had 2 retirements and was off the podium 3 times. It was a pretty good season and I still say the Mclaren was the better car; the rookie came 2nd.

Schumacher was retired, and didn’t drive the car, so that’s spurious speculation. Massa, in the same ‘best car’, finished 4th.

Edited by SpatialTech, 09 January 2022 - 13:08.


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#40 messy

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Posted 09 January 2022 - 16:33

I’ll argue it till I’m blue in the face - Kimi was the best driver of 2007, and the right champion.

Maybe he wasn’t as exciting as he had been in his McLaren days, but he did the job nicely. For me, the turning point with Kimi was about halfway through 2008. From battling for back to back titles, to support role for Massa. And that strange slump he had coloured opinions of him for years to come, even though he largely recovered his form in 2009. His comeback, too, was highly successful - third in the Championship in his first year back at Enstone, podium after podium after podium through 2012 and most of 2013. People say Grosjean was always the quicker when he got it all dialed in but I don’t think that’s wholly true, it just suits the narrative. Again, late 2013 he had a weird little slump and Grosjean took over as the Lotus driver at the sharp end. Was it the change of tyre construction? His niggling back problem? His stropping about not getting paid and losing motivation? Probably all three I think. No massive mystery.

Kimi has this really strong “he was brilliant then he was sh*t and lingered around too long” narrative around him doesn’t he, which really affects the ways certain things and certain seasons are remembered.

#41 JRodrigues

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Posted 09 January 2022 - 17:40

Because others dropped the ball. I seem to recall his own team criticising his form mid-season.

1 3 3 Ret 8 5 4 1 1 Ret 2 2 3 1 3 1 1

I fail to see how a string of 9 consecutive podiums (with a DNF due to mechanical issues in the middle) to finish the season is questionable. 


Edited by JRodrigues, 09 January 2022 - 17:40.


#42 JRodrigues

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Posted 09 January 2022 - 17:49

Kimi had 2 retirements and was off the podium 3 times. It was a pretty good season and I still say the Mclaren was the better car; the rookie came 2nd.

Schumacher was retired, and didn’t drive the car, so that’s spurious speculation. Massa, in the same ‘best car’, finished 4th.

 

2007 journalists season predictions:

 

 

 

Jonathan Noble
Ferrari may have lost Michael Schumacher and Ross Brawn, but Jean Todt will not allow the train to leave its tracks. Felipe Massa, having learned alongside the master last year, will put it all to good use to head off the threat of both his own Ferrari teammate Kimi Raikkonen, who will continue to be dogged by bad luck, and a very-strong Alonso at McLaren.
Varsha: Fernando Alonso, Felipe Massa, Kimi Raikkonen. I really can’t see any reason not to back Alonso, despite the change of team, given what he has shown in the last two seasons. I think he really has no weaknesses, although his biggest challenge this year may be organizing the team around him, given the corporate culture at McLaren. I also think Massa will win the early battle to gain the upper hand over Raikkonen at Ferrari if given the chance. That’s a big “if,” but given the upheaval on the technical side at Big Red, they need a driver who is sound on the engineering side, and I think we know that’s not Kimi’s strength. But Raikkonen is so gifted I’ll put him third, and if the car is right he could do much better.

 

https://forums.autos...f1-2007-season/

 

Many users here also said that Massa would have upper hand over Raikkonen, so I don't understand why do people try to change what was said at the time. Was it just because Kimi won?



#43 juicy sushi

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Posted 10 January 2022 - 15:15

Guys,

 

Wins = first place in Autosport annual top 50 list ..... wins =/= races won in F1

 

Points = total points since 2001 based points for place on the Autosport annual top 50 list

 

 

Would be interesting to see an average of the "points" per season .... just to take away FA's advantage of having been an active top level driver since at least 2001, and therefore having the most total points.

Ah, so if this is the methodology I can safely ignore the list as drooling idiocy.  A formula reflecting results on track would be interesting, but a formula reflecting journalist rankings is not something worthy of discussion.