2397 replies to this topic

[SpatialTech]

Just reading Masi has been giving his walking boots, with the other chap too.

Any verification anywhere, this was on Twitter.

Edited by SpatialTech, 12 January 2022 - 09:56.

[Risil]

Quick scan around the news suggests that the last bit of news was Andrew Benson's bombshell reporting (anonymously-sourced, denied by everyone!) that Toto Wolff demanded that Michael Masi and Nicolas Tombazis left their jobs in exchange for dropping the Abu Dhabi appeal. I've changed the thread title for now but if anything happens I'll update.
 
Here's the relevant bit:
 

One senior source told BBC Sport that Mercedes had dropped their appeal against the results of the race after agreeing a quid pro quo with the FIA.

This deal was said to be that Masi and FIA head of single-seater technical matters Nikolas Tombazis would no longer be in their positions for the 2022 season.

Mercedes deny that any such deal was reached, and insist that they dropped their appeal after receiving assurances only that the issue would be treated seriously and appropriate action would be taken by the FIA.

 
https://www.bbc.co.u...rmula1/59951382

[PitViperRacing]

Just reading Masi has been giving his walking boots, with the other chap too.

Any verification anywhere, this was on Twitter.

Still speculative at this stage.

 

I mentioned it in the other thread on whether Lewis will retire, but I'll reiterate it here. I have no issues with Masi being shown the door, as his performance over the last season was pretty poor overall. But if Merc have used the AD controversy as an opportunity to strong-arm the FIA in ousting Tombazis they can jam it.

 

To use a controversy as an opportunity to remove someone simply because you didn't like the recent regulation changes is wrong, and completely defies the narrative of holding the FIA accountable for 'the integrity of the sport'. If Merc has had a hand in Tombazis being removed, they've lost any moral high ground IMO.

 

The above is obviously speculative, as it's not confirmed if Tombazis has been removed; or if Merc has had any hand in it if he has been dumped.

[SpatialTech]

Seemingly the rumours include Hamilton refusing to come back unless he was removed. Bombshell if true.

https://www.express....news-Toto-Wolff

[Risil]

Seemingly the rumours include Hamilton refusing to come back unless he was removed. Bombshell if true.

https://www.express....news-Toto-Wolff

 

This is just a rewording of the BBC story really, with a bit from a Sky Sports story about the possibility of Lewis retiring grafted onto the end!

[TradeMark]

If all this is true Hamilton should have left. The sport is seriously messed up if Mercedes can pressure FIA into such calls. But yeah it only confirms how Mercedes has been using it's power for a decade already to steer everything in their direction.

[Risil]

There's some more reporting to be done about why/if Mercedes are equally upset with Tombazis. I think we could all have guessed that Masi had to go and that Wolff would have demanded it, but throwing the FIA's single-seater technical guy in there as well is news to me.

[TheFish]

If all this is true Hamilton should have left. The sport is seriously messed up if Mercedes can pressure FIA into such calls. But yeah it only confirms how Mercedes has been using it's power for a decade already to steer everything in their direction.

Lots of people will agree with you on that one. Even questions on if it's still a sport right now. There will be different reasonings though.

 

I think it's a slam dunk Masi has to go, and if he had any shame he'd have resigned and apologised already.

 

Merc pushing their power to get Tombazis gone, if they have done it, would be a surprising demand on a few different levels. That the FIA would accept it is also surprising. It would show that they were likely very afraid of what the Merc protest would do and show.

[Diablobb81]

Since it's a new thread : kick Merc out for the good of the sport.

Edited by Diablobb81, 12 January 2022 - 10:09.

[TheJag]

Or else?

[SpatialTech]

Still speculative at this stage.

I mentioned it in the other thread on whether Lewis will retire, but I'll reiterate it here. I have no issues with Masi being shown the door, as his performance over the last season was pretty poor overall. But if Merc have used the AD controversy as an opportunity to strong-arm the FIA in ousting Tombazis they can jam it.

To use a controversy as an opportunity to remove someone simply because you didn't like the recent regulation changes is wrong, and completely defies the narrative of holding the FIA accountable for 'the integrity of the sport'. If Merc has had a hand in Tombazis being removed, they've lost any moral high ground IMO.

The above is obviously speculative, as it's not confirmed if Tombazis has been removed; or if Merc has had any hand in it if he has been dumped.

Not yet, but given how enraged all of the AMG management were (the top dog was there and agreed to the appeal), it’s not a massive leap of logic to see this was part of it all. AMG will, of course deny it.

Masi had to go, for F1 to retain any remaining integrity, but I was surprised when I read Tombazis.

I think, if true, it shows how worried the FIA was about this going to appeal…

Edited by SpatialTech, 12 January 2022 - 10:11.

[TheFish]

Since it's a new thread : kick Merc out for the good of the sport.

Would make 2022 fun with only 12 cars on the grid.

[TradeMark]

Well, Wolff first says after the season that both Horner and himself went too far in manipulating RD via radio and then continues afterwards to manipulate and demand certain people to be fired in order for Lewis to continue?

I can't wait for the day that Mercedes and especially Wolff leave the sport.

[TradeMark]

Or else?

Lets hope we find out.

[ConsiderAndGo]

What's Tombazis done? Was he responsible for for the floor change directive? If they are asking for him to resign for that, I'd rather Merc packed up and left. Bunch of pathetic cry babies.

 

Hamilton and Merc cannot be allowed to blackmail the FIA to get what they want, which is to essentially say Masi is a cheat who always wanted Verstappen to win. Neither are bigger than the sport and will be consigned to the history books once they leave, whether that be now or the future. 

Edited by ConsiderAndGo, 12 January 2022 - 10:15.

[ensign14]

If all this is true Hamilton should have left. The sport is seriously messed up if Mercedes can pressure FIA into such calls. But yeah it only confirms how Mercedes has been using it's power for a decade already to steer everything in their direction.

 

Said it before.  Mercedes should have pursued an independent legal action.  That way the removal of Masi would not have been seen as a quid pro quo, rather than something that should have been done after Azerbaijan, or at least Spa.  It smacks of the FIA pivoting to try to blame Mercedes.

 

[Risil]

What's Tombazis done? Was he responsible for for the floor change directive? If they are asking for him to resign for that, I'd rather Merc packed up and left. Bunch of pathetic cry babies.
 
Hamilton and Merc cannot be allowed to blackmail the FIA. Neither are bigger than the sport and will be consigned to the history books once they leave, whether that be now or the future.

 

Tombazis would also be responsible for the action/inaction on the various technical controversies throughout the year. I don't really understand why Mercedes would want him out so strongly, and why if they do, they haven't been encouraging journos to run stories about how "controversial" and "fraught" his tenure has been. I wouldn't be surprised if Benson's source is right about the Masi demand but wrong about the Tombazis one. More reporting to do.

[Beri]

If this is true, it does show the true colors of Mercedes and would be a dangerous precedent. And in that case, VAG cant come soon enough into Formula One to devaluate Mercedes' power.

[SpatialTech]

This is just a rewording of the BBC story really, with a bit from a Sky Sports story about the possibility of Lewis retiring grafted onto the end!

Express, should have realised, got a bit too excited.

I really do hope they’ve shipped the Aussie off though, they had to.

If true, and I emphasise the if, I believe it shows both how much the FIA were afraid of losing the appeal, and maybe Hamiltons overall strength in ‘the show’ as was alluded to in earlier threads.

Hamilton to walk 2022, I am sure of it. And if so, it shows it’s been pushed as entertainment, not sport.

[joegsmro]

Just a guess ....the Tombazis removal request ( if there is any truth to it ) must be correlated to Brazil 0.2 rear wing failure and the fact that the fia technical department did not give the wing back to Mercedes preventing them to prove that it was a failure and not a cheat .

[Cliff]

Seemingly the rumours include Hamilton refusing to come back unless he was removed. Bombshell if true.

https://www.express....news-Toto-Wolff

 

I'd call it petulant. Demanding for someone to get fired who made a mistake, in which your own teamboss probably has had some sort of influence in a negative way. Someone who compared to you has a lot less wealth, and basically ending said persons career is extremely petty. If true it would be a good riddance if he leaves the sport.

 

But I really don't believe he demands this, It's likely just the British garbage tabloid press making it up as they go along. Lewis has more class than this.

[Risil]

It's the BBC who originated the story, not the tabloid press. They're a bit less assertive than the Express about the connection to Lewis wondering if he'll retire however. There does seem to be a link though.

[SpatialTech]

I'd call it petulant. Demanding for someone to get fired who made a mistake, in which your own teamboss probably has had some sort of influence in a negative way. Someone who compared to you has a lot less wealth, and basically ending said persons career is extremely petty. If true it would be a good riddance if he leaves the sport.

But I really don't believe he demands this, It's likely just the British garbage tabloid press making it up as they go along. Lewis has more class than this.

You’d hope so, but we will never know, no one is going to admit to all of this; Masi and, potentially, Tombazis, will be moved out, to some back office role, ‘as planned’ or something, AMG, Hamilton will deny doing anything: it is thus how the FIA operate.

Personally, if true, would love to see Masi spit the dummy and start talking about all behind closed doors deals.

Edited by SpatialTech, 12 January 2022 - 10:28.

[Beri]

It's the BBC, not the tabloid press. 

 

Which makes it likely to be true and therefore even a scenario that is so sickening, that I simply can not believe Mercedes would stoop so low.

[Risil]

Personally, if true, would love to see Masi spit the dummy and start talking about all behind closed doors deals.

Free Masi!

[Requiem84]

So what is next? Can Mercedes now hand in a list of Stewards which they require unfit for their tasks as Stewards? 

 

How far does this 'leveraging' go? Will Hamilton only come back if Toto Wolff will be the new FIA president? 

 

[SpatialTech]

Which makes it likely to be true and therefore even a scenario that is so sickening, that I simply can not believe Mercedes would stoop so low.

Personally happy they did. Masi screwed up and needed to go to retain any scared of integrity. Not too sure what Tombazis did wrong, unless there’s some perceived bias AMG thought he had. Not too sure I’d go along with that.

[Nemo1965]

Express, should have realised, got a bit too excited.

I really do hope they’ve shipped the Aussie off though, they had to.

If true, and I emphasise the if, I believe it shows both how much the FIA were afraid of losing the appeal, and maybe Hamiltons overall strength in ‘the show’ as was alluded to in earlier threads.

Hamilton to walk 2022, I am sure of it. And if so, it shows it’s been pushed as entertainment, not sport.

 
I saw this view in other threads as well, the idea that if Hamilton leaves F1, it would reflect badly on FIA and F1 in general. In the very short term, yes, but I think it would be VERY detrimental to Lewis his reputation if he would quit F1 now and especially if he does so with indicating this was because of Abu Dhabi 2021. I am not saying it would be fair, I am not saying it would be justified: but if Lewis walks away from the sport it would seriously tarnish his reputation and that of Mercedes. He and his fans would think 'That will show them,' but it would be more like the suicide-squad in the Life of Brian...

Edited by Nemo1965, 12 January 2022 - 10:35.

[Beri]

Personally happy they did. Masi screwed up and needed to go to retain any scared of integrity. Not too sure what Tombazis did wrong, unless there’s some perceived bias AMG thought he had. Not too sure I’d go along with that.

 
Well, I still cant see what Masi did wrong. But that is for another discussion.
 
In this case we are talking about a competitor demanding the race director stepping down. It would be the same as if, in Football terms, the Manchester City board demanding Peter McCormick of the FA to step down. It is ridiculous and totally out of Mercedes league to even demand that.

[ConsiderAndGo]

Which makes it likely to be true and therefore even a scenario that is so sickening, that I simply can not believe Mercedes would stoop so low.

You've seen who their boss is, right? Wolff is an unhinged nut job. Its EXACTLY how low I'd expect Merc to go.

[PitViperRacing]

Personally happy they did. Masi screwed up and needed to go to retain any scared of integrity. Not too sure what Tombazis did wrong, unless there’s some perceived bias AMG thought he had. Not too sure I’d go along with that.

I don't think there's a huge amount of backlash ref Masi. The main thing is the Tombazis removal (if true). He's done nothing other than made decisions that didn't work well for Mercedes. To push to have him shown the door for that is horrid. If it comes to light that it's true, would be very happy to see Toto out of the sport.

[Dhillon]

Well, I still cant see what Masi did wrong. But that is for another discussion.

I agree, as soon as Lafiti was in the wall there was no chance of an amicable outcome.

Mercedes may as well demand Toto to handle RD duties.

[Requiem84]

I don't think there's a huge amount of backlash ref Masi. The main thing is the Tombazis removal (if true). He's done nothing other than made decisions that didn't work well for Mercedes. To push to have him shown the door for that is horrid. If it comes to light that it's true, would be very happy to see Toto out of the sport.

 

It would be a rather dangerous thing for Mercedes to demand Tombazis to be removed. 

 

It could lead to all sort of inquiries about corruption, blackmail, abuse of power, governance etc. Not one single competitor in any sport in the world should be able to demand to have people removed (especially if they are totally unrelated to the case at hand). 

 

This could explode very very badly.

[Risil]

In this case we are talking about a competitor demanding the race director stepping down.

 

Leaving aside the rest of your post for a moment -- if you assume that the race director is incompetent and it's ruining the competition, who should be demanding the race director steps down? I'm not sure who else would be able to exert pressure on the FIA.

[SpatialTech]

I saw this view in other threads as well, the idea that if Hamilton leaves F1, it would reflect badly on FIA and F1 in general. In the very short term, yes, but I think it would be VERY detrimental to Lewis his reputation if he would quit F1 now and especially if he does so with indicating this was because of Abu Dhabi 2021. I am not saying it would be fair, I am not saying it would be justified: but if Lewis walks away from the sport it would seriously tarnish his reputation and that of Mercedes. He and his fans would think 'That will show them,' but it would be more like the suicide-squad in the Life of Brian...
https://www.youtube....h?v=NUHk2RSMCS8

I disagree, if anything, if he walks away he’s showing how tarnished that last race was, the FIA were, not himself; he’s acted with nothing but dignity since that last lap, been perfect in response to Verstappen if the Verstappens are to be believed. if he left now, he’d be doing it with his head held high, not wanting to take part in what he might rightly call no longer a sport. I think he’d be lauded for walking away, and let’s not forget, he’s the most successful F1 driver of all time; Most wins, most poles, most podiums, most points, etc, etc.

As an aside, what are the rules here for directly quoting from an article? Do you post some and a link?

[TheFish]

 
Well, I still cant see what Masi did wrong. But that is for another discussion.
 
In this case we are talking about a competitor demanding the race director stepping down. It would be the same as if, in Football terms, the Manchester City board demanding Peter McCormick of the FA to step down. It is ridiculous and totally out of Mercedes league to even demand that.

Not quite, it would be more like demanding one referee not take control of any of their games anymore. Which has happened a few times and some dodgy decisions.

[Disgrace]

Well done, Mercedes. They found the one option that would be worse than Masi staying, which is manufacturers making demands on issues of the sport's governance.

[SpatialTech]

Ed Straw’s article last night is a very good read on Hamiltons strength in what may be being discussed behind closed doors. Expands on what we were talking about the other day, about his attraction as a global superstar that the FIA need in continuing to sell the show, something Verstappen isn’t.

[GentlemanDriver091]

Personally happy they did. Masi screwed up and needed to go to retain any scared of integrity. Not too sure what Tombazis did wrong, unless there’s some perceived bias AMG thought he had. Not too sure I’d go along with that.

It’s your opinion Masi screwed up, not everyone agrees with that, so that’s what it is, just an opinion.

My opinion is that F1 would be a lot better off without Mercedes and Toto Wolff and if Lewis is such a sore loser, he wants to retire, please let him.

[ConsiderAndGo]

Ed Straw’s article last night is a very good read on Hamiltons strength in what may be being discussed behind closed doors. Expands on what we were talking about the other day, about his attraction as a global superstar that the FIA need in continuing to sell the show, something Verstappen isn’t.

No disrespect to him, but what nonsense. 

 

Drivers far more popular than Hamilton in the past have left and guess what.... the sport was just fine even without calling the sports governance into disrepute. 

[Risil]

Ed Straw’s article last night is a very good read on Hamiltons strength in what may be being discussed behind closed doors. Expands on what we were talking about the other day, about his attraction as a global superstar that the FIA need in continuing to sell the show, something Verstappen isn’t.

 

Not having read The Race's article, I wonder if the cunning part of using Hamilton as leverage is that it drives a wedge between the FIA and Liberty. The FIA probably cares more about its dignity and authority, and I doubt they'd mind that much if Lewis retires out of spite or disillusionment. But Liberty as the commercial rights holder are much more sensitive to Hamilton's appeal, especially in the kinds of markets they see as critical for their strategy. So as a divide and conquer there's something to recommend it.

 

Whether this is on the whole good for F1 is another question. But it's kind of up to the FIA to show leadership on this issue. Doesn't really do any good to complain about Lewis playing politics when he is perfectly entitled to walk away if he wants.

[pdac]

Mercedes should have taken their case to court when the had the chance. That would have resolved the whole issue one way or another. It's just too late now.

 

(of course, it may transpire that they came to a private agreement that they would not take it further and, in return, the FIA would quietly dispose of Masi - and now the FIA have changed their mind).

Edited by pdac, 12 January 2022 - 11:01.

[w00dy]

Ed Straw’s article last night is a very good read on Hamiltons strength in what may be being discussed behind closed doors. Expands on what we were talking about the other day, about his attraction as a global superstar that the FIA need in continuing to sell the show, something Verstappen isn’t.

 

Has Hamilton become too big to lose a championship in this sport? Interesting take.

[TheFish]

It’s your opinion Masi screwed up, not everyone agrees with that, so that’s what it is, just an opinion.

My opinion is that F1 would be a lot better off without Mercedes and Toto Wolff and if Lewis is such a sore loser, he wants to retire, please let him.

I too think we should have a 12 car grid this season.

[Calum]

I’m quite stunned Masi hasn’t walked already.

[Requiem84]

Has Hamilton become too big to lose a championship in this sport? Interesting take.

 

Or alternatively, is the FIA now required to give Hamilton his 8th WDC in 2022? 

 

Can we be assured that any decision making behind the scenes is not aimed at benefitting Mercedes / Hamilton for 2022 to 'make up for Abu Dhabi'? 

 

It's one thing to say that we all have been watching a 'rigged race' in Abu Dhabi in 2021, but it would be rather... next level to witness a full 23 race Championship being tailored to Mercedes' needs.... 

[GentlemanDriver091]

I too think we should have a 12 car grid this season.

If that is what you think my opinion is, please read again.

[wj_gibson]

Personally, if the story is true, then I think it completely unacceptable for a competitor (Merc, Red Bull, Ferrari or anyone else) simply to demand the heads of the officials of any sport, and dangle the threat of withdrawal of either themselves or one of their key assets as a bargaining chip in the process.

 

The rules clearly have opaque and contradictory aspects to them, but the team bosses have been leaning on Masi throughout the races all year. Merc clearly continues to do so through this process. 
 

There has to be a point at which the teams accept that the RD’s decisions are final, no matter how contentious or open to different interpretation. By all means clarify the rules and processes around race restarts, but this Robespierrian nonsense of demanding heads has to stop. I won’t be the only one whose perception of Merc F1 will be significantly damaged through the apparent course of events now unfolding.

Edited by wj_gibson, 12 January 2022 - 11:05.

[Risil]

There has to be a point at which the teams accept that the RD’s decisions are final, no matter how contentious or open to different interpretation. By all means clarify the rules and processes around race restarts, but this Robespierrian nonsense of demanding heads has to stop. I won’t be the only one whose perception of Merc F1 will be significantly damaged through the apparent course of events now unfolding.

 

This is a genius analogy as you can see the spot where Robespierre was executed from the FIA head office's window...

[TheJag]

Disgusting. If this true Merc should be banned from the sport.