95 replies to this topic

[ConsiderAndGo]

Separate team & technical car thread is more than enough per team. Seemed to work quite well last season.

Edited by ConsiderAndGo, 14 January 2022 - 12:30.

[noikeee]

Single team and technical car thread is more than enough per team. Seemed to work quite well last season.

We had 2 threads per team last year, one "team thread" and one "technical thread". I wonder if some people aren't even realising this?

For people that are new to the forum I think the current model might well be quite confusing.

[SophieB]

Brainstorming here, I just had another idea: what about one single technical thread for all the teams? "Formula 1 Technical Thread / Development Race 2022"

Would be particularly useful in the first few weeks of the season / pre-season. People spend loads of time comparing car designs anyway. And the bargeboard/sidepod obsessives would find a home here, largely shielded from driver v driver nonsense. Without the club house effect, even.

This is an interesting idea. You are right that the people who appreciated the science/art of the technical designs of cars did complain that updates got lost in the heat of driver fights which helped drive the idea for giving them their own space but it’s possibly not working that well, hence this thread for more brains to think about it all.

[IrvTheSwerve]

This is an interesting idea. You are right that the people who appreciated the science/art of the technical designs of cars did complain that updates got lost in the heat of driver fights which helped drive the idea for giving them their own space but it’s possibly not working that well, hence this thread for more brains to think about it all.

 

I was also thinking that a single technical thread could be a good idea...people who are interested in the technical side are more than likely going to be interested in all developments across the teams anyway...

[JimmyClark]

I think the current system works well, it is indeed good to split technical from team discussion as the former can easily get lost amongst the more passionate driver discussions. 

[ConsiderAndGo]

We had 2 threads per team last year, one "team thread" and one "technical thread". I wonder if some people aren't even realising this?

For people that are new to the forum I think the current model might well be quite confusing.

Yes that's what I meant sorry.

[SenorSjon]

Worse than Lando v Daniel?

 

Haven't followed that. Max vs Mercedes was intense enough as it is.

 

Brainstorming here, I just had another idea: what about one single technical thread for all the teams? "Formula 1 Technical Thread / Development Race 2022"

Would be particularly useful in the first few weeks of the season / pre-season. People spend loads of time comparing car designs anyway. And the bargeboard/sidepod obsessives would find a home here, largely shielded from driver v driver nonsense. Without the club house effect, even.

 

Isn't it called the winter testing thread? Afterwards, most comparing gets done in the race threads and when something mid-season pops up, it gets its own thread like the bendy wings.

[jonpollak]

A Meritocracy Based Forum !!!


1) Exhaustive Entrance Examinations for prospective posters.
2) Tiered access to threads based on sentence structure and correct grammar points gathered at regular intervals.
3) Awarded GOLD members can say whatever they like about anything and to anyone with guaranteed impunity.
4) ASSHAT awards presented to posters that are all up themselves.

Sounds good huh !!
Jp

[Secretariat]

I like that, but then isn't that FIA's job to explain regulations and regulation changes .. so that we can hold them accountable.

Yes. However, it can be as uncomplicated as anyone wants that willing to post in that potential thread. For example opening post links to the year's regs, links to any stories/articles that discuss regs, or the opening poster can provide an opinion/analysis of the regs/reg changes.  F1 fans have always discussed the rules whether sporting or technical and that seems to being continuing these days as well. So perhaps a dedicated space is helpful.   

[noikeee]

A Meritocracy Based Forum !!!


1) Exhaustive Entrance Examinations for prospective posters.
2) Tiered access to threads based on sentence structure and correct grammar points gathered at regular intervals.
3) Awarded GOLD members can say whatever they like about anything and to anyone with guaranteed impunity.
4) ASSHAT awards presented to posters that are all up themselves.

Sounds good huh !!
Jp

 

JP and all the people moaning there's too many rules ruining the fun.. I get that but there kinda needs to be some rules. The "driver threads" and "driver v driver threads" were absolutely awful and made everything toxic (and gave a ton of work to the people behind the scenes to prevent WW3). There's a reason why those were got rid of. What we ended up with now, was some kind of attempt to reframe those. "Red Bull team thread" sounds a lot more benign than "Max v Dan thread" (as in, everyone, fight!!! beat the other guy!! RAAAAA!!!). Simply a change in the names was enough to make things a whole lot different. Same thing for the "Lewis Hamilton thread - all things Lewis Hamilton" (or a few other drivers) which became a fanclub and aggressive towards other fanclubs.

 

Ultimately all we want (we = all of us posters, or most of us) is to be able to chat about F1 without having a daily aneurysm.

Edited by noikeee, 14 January 2022 - 13:54.

[Wolbo]

Strongly prefer a combined technical and team thread e.g. Red Bull Racing 2022. I understand the thinking behind a separate team and technical thread but in my opinion this distinction is flawed and has never really worked well. There is simply too much overlap which often leads to posts about the team or technical aspect ending up in the wrong thread or the technical thread just being discarded in favor of the team thread. When discussing the result or performance at a certain race you can often not separate these aspects and trying to do so makes it contrived and illogical.

 

To demonstrate the point, just look at Red Bull Racing 2021 (Team thread). Disregarding the nonsense in the beginning you can see how quickly technical aspects are discussed in the team thread. This happens all the time which is the best indicator that team and technical should not be separated.

[jonpollak]

JP and all the people moaning…..

Yeah… That’s not what I was saying.
Meant to be a self-deprecating joke…
but on reflection I think an entrance exam is not a bad idea.

Jp

[milestone 11]

I don’t understand the reluctance in having team threads as being something of a “clubhouse”.
 
I have the good grace to not venture into Red Bull team or technical threads, I don’t read them, I don’t post in them. I have no interest in their car, their drivers, nor their fans. That is my prerogative. The love ins that presumably take place therein can continue happily without my presence.
 
However, the same good grace, sadly, is not reciprocated by others. The Mercedes team thread is frequently invaded by marauders with little intent other than to introduce trolling and flame-baiting bile with regard Hamilton. This behaviour should be deterred or preferably stopped.
 
There are sufficient threads available to all, for the anti Hamilton brigade to have their say. The vast majority of threads descend into a Verstappen/Hamilton bore fest, one only has to look at the “BBC alleges” thread for evidence. This, manifested by a small select group that a simple post count of will establish the guilty. The team thread is an essential commodity and should be the domain of its fans, not yet another vehicle for incessant argument. Some would prefer a little peace and quiet without having to avoid brickbats and bottles. That same team should have a separate “Technical” thread in which the bottles can be thrown when the need arises.
 
There needs to be a much stricter control over manifestly dishonest selective quoting designed to alter the context of or, indeed, the very meaning of that which is posted. It should be a punishable offence. A classic example of this from yesterday, involved an Admin post.

 

Risil, on 12 Jan 2022 - 10:00, said:
 Toto Wolff demanded that Michael Masi and Nicolas Tombazis left their jobs in exchange for dropping the Abu Dhabi appeal.

 

 
Actual quote,
 

Risil 12 January 2022 – 10:00, said:
Quick scan around the news suggests that the last bit of news was Andrew Benson's bombshell reporting (anonymously-sourced, denied by everyone!) that Toto Wolff demanded that Michael Masi and Nicolas Tombazis left their jobs in exchange for dropping the Abu Dhabi appeal.

 

 

[noikeee]

I don’t understand the reluctance in having team threads as being something of a “clubhouse”.
 
I have the good grace to not venture into Red Bull team or technical threads, I don’t read them, I don’t post in them. I have no interest in their car, their drivers, nor their fans. That is my prerogative. The love ins that presumably take place therein can continue happily without my presence.

Because you shouldn't need this good grace, you are more than entitled to go chat about and voice your opinion on teams and drivers that you don't like, or at least aren't an active fan of, provided it's an honest opinion and not just something to wind people up.

 

Club house mentality can be bad when it fosters an us vs them mentality. If it's just friendly it's fine, but it's hardly ever like that (at least when trophies are on the line - backmarkers tend to be friendlier...)

[milestone 11]

 

Because you shouldn't need this good grace, you are more than entitled to go chat about and voice your opinion on teams and drivers that you don't like, or at least aren't an active fan of, provided it's an honest opinion and not just something to wind people up.

 

Club house mentality can be bad when it fosters an us vs them mentality. If it's just friendly it's fine, but it's hardly ever like that (at least when trophies are on the line - backmarkers tend to be friendlier...)

 

Frankly, I believe you've missed the point.

[Red5ive]

The  current system is fine.

 

Whilst on the subject - I dont really "get" why the "clubhouse" style isnt allowed during testing/quali/race etc  Surely if people see a value in that then whats the harm - or am I missing something ?.  

[SophieB]

The  current system is fine.

 

Whilst on the subject - I dont really "get" why the "clubhouse" style isnt allowed during testing/quali/race etc  Surely if people see a value in that then whats the harm - or am I missing something ?.  

Because discussing one team or driver shouldn’t be restricted to those who are demonstrating fandom/loyalty adequately. Left unchecked, it leads to non- fans being seen as inherently hostile, as openly expressed in posts along the lines of. ‘Why are you even posting here, you’re not even a fan of driver X’, like they’ve found a wasp in the beehive or something.  Doesn’t lead to open discussions of ideas. 

 

Also, frankly, the jump from clubhouse to echo chamber is a small one and in years past, some very weird ideas have taken hold through sheer repetition and going unchecked because again, saying stuff like ‘hey this makes no sense and could construed as complete balloon juice’ gets seen as inherently vindictive.

[loki]

JP and all the people moaning there's too many rules ruining the fun.

 

Moaning is when someone complains for the sake of complaining.  When someone asks for input and that input doesn’t fit a particular self determined construct that’s not moaning.  It’s an opinion.  An opinion that was solicited no less.

 

Many here  don’t realize/accept that they and they alone are responsible for what they read (as well as write) on the forum.  Should they not like the tone of the thread or the angst involved they should exercise their prerogative and not read the posts.  It’s not up to others to post things that make you feel good.  Not everyone’s opinion will be all warm and fuzzy.  It’s about civility not a concurrence of values and group think.  If you don’t like how a particular thread is going don’t read it.  It really is that easy.

[noikeee]

Moaning is when someone complains for the sake of complaining. When someone asks for input and that input doesn’t fit a particular self determined construct that’s not moaning. It’s an opinion. An opinion that was solicited no less.

Many here don’t realize/accept that they and they alone are responsible for what they read (as well as write) on the forum. Should they not like the tone of the thread or the angst involved they should exercise their prerogative and not read the posts. It’s not up to others to post things that make you feel good. Not everyone’s opinion will be all warm and fuzzy. It’s about civility not a concurrence of values and group think. If you don’t like how a particular thread is going don’t read it. It really is that easy.

Sorry I really didn't mean it that way

[mclarensmps]

I think Driver vs Driver threads invite a very specific type of user, and conversation that tends to put off others easily. 

In my opinion, the best course of action would be:
1. A team thread that covers everything to do with the team and the car - These threads are less susceptible to arguments and usually the discussion is up to date with what's currently happening in the season on and off track

2. A driver vs driver thread that focuses only on driver performance, opinion and fans who support drivers, rather than teams - These threads tend to go round in circles quite a lot, with heated debate and bringing up older incidents and stats over the course of the season. 

[MKSixer]

I think the current format of a Team Thread and a Technical Team Thread work well.  

 

I'd like to suggest adding an All-Cars Technical Thread to compare the various cars in one place.  The only rule would be no personnel/driver discussion with zero tolerance for breaking that rule.

 

Other than this, I can't see any reason to change the current arrangement.

[KWSN - DSM]

A single thread for each team.

e.g. 2022 Red Bull Racing Discussion

All technical, car related, team related and team personnel related discussion goes into such a thread. Discussion specific to a single driver and teammate battle stuff also belongs here. Will devolve into a clubhouse for fans but negative criticism is also allowed.

 

A single thread for discussing the performance of all 2022 drivers. It could be called the 2022 Driver Discussion. If anyone wants to compare the performance of drivers across teams in the context of the 2022 season, this is the place.

 

A single thread for the constructors championship. 2022 Constructors Championship thread. For discussing the WCC championship and comparing team performance.

 

Thats it.

 

I like that, count me as suggesting the same.

[FirstnameLastname]

What about one thread ‘The 2022 Formula One thread’? Could add OFFICIAL to the title to make it the place to be during 2022.

Rest of the forum could be for Lewis and Max themed threads

[mp4x]

I like the idea of having a single thread per team; last year some of technical sides of MCL35M were being posted in the team thread because some of the posters wouldn't bother to post them in the technical thread.
I think if a single thread could be heavily moderated I would pick it, because frankly some of driver vs. driver discussions are unbearable.

[Mark521]

While 2 threads per Team is a pretty good idea, for the smaller teams they disappear off the first page (or two).

I would then suggest 1 thread per Team, pinned in alphabetical order so they're easy to find.

Of course this probably looks terrible on a phone.

All other threads would be event or multiple team/driver issue related.

 

I suspect the above isn't popular so I'm fine the way it is but thanks for asking    .

[CPR]

For threads that are intended to last the rest of the year only...

 

I'd suggest defaulting to one thread per team.

 

I'd suggest having a pre-approved list of other potential year long threads that are subcategories for the team threads, which can be created when there's obvious need for one. The first post in the main thread and any subcategories would have links to the other threads, to make them easier to find when lost. The reason why I suggest having a pre-approved list of potential subcategories is that makes it very clear what options exist, makes it easier for them to be consistent across teams with minimum effort and makes approving them very simple ("is there sufficient demand/need?"). The most obvious team subcategories would be a technical one focused on the physical car (the engineering behind it, the characteristics it has on track) and one focused on the current drivers.

 

For other year long threads that aren't specific to a particular team, they could be created like how they are now.

[cbo]

Discussion of race incidents should be limited to the relevant race-thread and not allowed to spawn a gazillion other threads.

[pacificquay]

Discussion of race incidents should be limited to the relevant race-thread and not allowed to spawn a gazillion other threads.

Why?

 

if it’s a specific point and someone starts a thread, that lives or dies by its popularity. If it gets lots of response it remains prominent, if not it drops away.

[pRy]

I'll leave the suggestions to the more regular posters. But thank you to the mods for entering yet another year of trying to keep this place organised and functional. Your efforts are always appreciated.

[messy]

Personally I don’t think you’re ever going to be able to do anything about how partisan the driver vs driver threads get….people support their driver or team and will want to back them, that’s sport in a nutshell. And unfortunately that means some people get nasty, personal, bad tempered. The only way to make threads like that bearable for other people is to police the individual posts like crazy and given how many of them seem to get nasty and how quickly debates like that can run away with themselves, I don’t think that’s ever going to happen.

It’s a shame though because without that, threads about team-mate battles are some of the most interesting on here IMO. It’s not the concept of those threads that’s to blame, or the fact some people are biased - that’s fine - it’s the fact some people just aren’t able, in the heat of debate, not to get angry or personal. And that’s what needs to be policed - but it’s easier said than done when there’s so…..much.

Aside from that I think the one thread per team thing works. I must say, generally I didn’t tend to bother too much with the technical threads because I always felt there was a better discussion in the team thread simply because more people contributed. So maybe merging those two and just having one thread for McLaren, one thread for Red Bull, etc. Best of both worlds. You get the full contribution and some of the really insightful stuff that people would have missed on the tech threads gets seen by more people. I’m not personally bothered if the Haas thread drops onto page three, it’s easy to bump it if there’s a talking point.

Also, I think if there’s a talking point from a race, new threads to discuss that incident or situation being distinct from the season-long threads works fine. So basically, I’m pretty happy with how things are really.

[renzmann]

I don't mind keeping it the way it is, but I do wish there were more technical discussion. The technical threads tend to be neglected and need some bumping from time to time to be kept alive. I think more members would stumble upon and join a technical discussion if there were a catch-all thread for each team.

 

Also, whenever a team thread went OT, it mostly was due to driver comparisons gone out of hand. The rivalry thread opted above may be a good idea.

[aray]

I also like the idea of one technical thread. New parts get discussed regularly on team thread anyway most of the time, so individual technical threads are mostly redundant.

Since we can't have driver vs. driver thread , sadly I can't think of a solution to avoid the toxic bickering between the fanbase. Team thread has to absorb them.

 

One thing the management can think of is implementing thread moderator for team threads. Global moderators will have less pressure then.

[Rinehart]

Yeah… That’s not what I was saying.
Meant to be a self-deprecating joke…
but on reflection I think an entrance exam is not a bad idea.

Jp

[Tenmantaylor]

I said it earlier in the thread but I think a Hamilton vs Russell thread would be fantastic.

 

Both British drivers so no nationalism BS.

 

Both in the same team so no team preference BS.

 

The political and sporting threads in this upcoming battle alone are well worthy of their own thread now, let alone when the season gets going.

 

Give it a go 

[BRG]

Oh, and a big thank you to all moderators and admins for all their work and being interested to improve this place.

Agreed and seconded fully. It should be seconded by all of us.

 

Make a different split:

Team thread for discussing things technical and team organisation, economy, ownership, performance etc.

Team driver and staff thread to discuss the teams drivers and staff.

Reasoning is that discussion on drivers and team personnel seems to generated the most drivel and bollocks.

Yes.  the two thread concept is the best, but with this modification.  One thread for firmware, one for wetware.

 

But the clubhouse idea is wrong.  Any thread is, and should remain, open to anyone, subject to the longstanding rules of the forum.  

Edited by BRG, 15 January 2022 - 12:22.

[FullOppositeLock]

I appreciate that the opening post explains that single driver threads have been tried and didn't work, but that was probably before my time and I don't quite understand why it would be any more toxic than the Team threads we have today. It would have as a benefit that discussion about individual drivers would be more concentrated and those only interested in reading up on their favourite driver could do so more easily without having to trawl through loads of posts they may find less interesting. I feel that the team mate versus team mate threads we had previously and the Team threads we have today have the potential to turn toxic when the drivers' performance is closely matched.

 

I would go with two individual driver threads per team and a combined technical and other team members/news thread. On top of that I think the ad hoc incident threads are fine as they are.

 

Most of all, I want to compliment and thank the mod team for their excellent work in keeping the discussion on this forum civilised even in challenging times.Without you any structure is doomed to descend into chaos.   

[shure]

I’m fine with the current format. And I would also add that I like the fact that the mods allow threads to meander a bit for the most part, as the natural flow of any conversation is to drift here and there anyway. Only perhaps slightly negative point I might have is that sometimes I think threads are closed for no reason other than that the mod thinks it’s not interesting anymore, and as long as things aren’t toxic I think they should be allowed to carry on, as clearly some people are still interested in the discussion. But overall I think the balance here is pretty good. I came from another forum where you could often cut the atmosphere with a knife so kudos to the mods for striking what must be a very difficult balance here

[kumo7]

Thanks for asking PayAsYouRace.

I nearly agree with the idea to keep the status quo.
Yet, I do think more clear objective would help us discuss things much in focus. Therefore I do think to discuss the matter as according to the championship that the teams are running for.

So I propose two threads per team;
one thread on the team efforts for the World Drivers Championship and the other ;
on the team efforts for the World Constructors Championship.

I have seen discussions quite inseparable from drivers to the team and quite often in one thread mixup issues being discussed by several posters passionately. I do think this is quite natural because sometime one driver delivered results for constructors championship, and on the other occasion for drivers championship.
The teams fight for the two championships therefore I think quite natural that we discuss the efforts for tyem.

[Clatter]

I don't mind keeping it the way it is, but I do wish there were more technical discussion. The technical threads tend to be neglected and need some bumping from time to time to be kept alive. I think more members would stumble upon and join a technical discussion if there were a catch-all thread for each team.

 

Also, whenever a team thread went OT, it mostly was due to driver comparisons gone out of hand. The rivalry thread opted above may be a good idea.

 

There is a whole forum dedicated to the technical stuff.

[PayasYouRace]

For this week this thread will be sticky, just in case anyone else wants a say.

[pup]

My thoughts:

 

1.  I think the usefulness of having separate technical threads isn't what it used to be.  The inventiveness and rapid, visible development that we used to see on the cars once drove a great deal of discussion; and so it made sense to split those out.  Now, apart from the car reveals and testing, technical changes and development are subtle and, honestly, not particularly interesting.  On the rare occasion when something dramatic or controversial does appear, I think a separate thread might actually generate more interest and discussion, since it will attract more comments from those who don't regularly visit team threads other than their favorites.  For my part, I know of a few interesting technical subjects that I completely missed simply because all the discussion happened within a team thread that I never visit.

 

2.  Intrateam driver battles are generally the only thing within a team's fanbase that will predictably lead to arguments.  Segregating those discussions out of the team threads won't eliminate those arguments of course, which is fine, imo; but it would allow the team threads to not be sidetracked and littered with comments that are only interesting to those who choose to participate.  

 

3.  Other potential flashpoints between fans of a particular team are rare enough that I think they too could easily be split to separate topics in order to protect the team threads.  McLaren v Honda would be a good example of that.  

 

4.  So, my opinion is one team/tech thread and one driver thread, with additional separate topics created for interesting technical advancements or specific controversial team developments.  

 

5.  I really appreciate that the moderators are asking for this feedback and willing to consider alternatives to the status quo.

Edited by pup, 17 January 2022 - 18:17.

[PayasYouRace]

Thank you all for your considered and thoughtful feedback. We’re now closing this thread and we’ll announce any changes in the next week or so.

[PayasYouRace]

Once again I'd like to thank everyone who provided thoughtful and considered responses to this survey.

 

There does not seem to be a general consensus for change, so we're going to leave things generally as they are in terms of the thread topics. However, we'd like to enourage all members to open new threads on particular topics, as we don't want to see news and potentially interesting discussion points buried in the team threads.

 

Finally, I'd like to add that in future if anyone does have a good idea, please PM one of the mod team and we'll definitely read it. We'll leave this thread open for a short while.

[MasterOfCoin]

A technical tab inside the main team thread would be nice.....

[Zmeej]

Well.

 

But seriously...

 

PayAsYouRace

 

Great OP, great summation.

 

FWIW, and as Ukrainians say, "as mustard after lunch,"

the resurgence of my interest in the RC this year was due to what was going on in F1 during the season.

 

Could generally tell by thread titles whether I would have any interest in reading the posts and/or contributing my own.

 

Otherwise, it seems to me that the functionality of the threads I did visit was due, as it loooong has been, to the excellence of the admin team.

 

Keep up the good work folks, and mille grazie.

Edited by Zmeej, 01 February 2022 - 02:50.

[Rinehart]

What was decided in the end?

Really, really don’t see the point of the separate team and technical threads when people are just going to the busy one with anything to say - which happens to be the technical one in the case of McLaren and Mercedes at least…

Edited by Rinehart, 25 March 2022 - 20:01.