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Poll: Best non-WDC F1 driver of the modern era (1983-present)


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Poll: Vote (282 member(s) have cast votes)

Who's the best (retired) non-WDC driver since 1983?

  1. Riccardo Patrese (3 votes [1.06%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.06%

  2. Rene Arnoux (4 votes [1.42%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.42%

  3. Elio de Angelis (12 votes [4.26%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.26%

  4. Michele Alboreto (7 votes [2.48%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.48%

  5. Gerhard Berger (22 votes [7.80%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.80%

  6. Jean Alesi (15 votes [5.32%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.32%

  7. Rubens Barrichello (12 votes [4.26%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.26%

  8. Heinz-Harald Frentzen (3 votes [1.06%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.06%

  9. David Coulthard (8 votes [2.84%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.84%

  10. Ralf Schumacher (4 votes [1.42%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.42%

  11. Juan Pablo Montoya (110 votes [39.01%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 39.01%

  12. Mark Webber (8 votes [2.84%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.84%

  13. Felipe Massa (14 votes [4.96%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.96%

  14. Robert Kubica (49 votes [17.38%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 17.38%

  15. Somebody else who's not in this list (11 votes [3.90%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.90%

If you could've voted for Gilles Villeneuve, would you?

  1. Yes (105 votes [37.23%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 37.23%

  2. No (177 votes [62.77%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 62.77%

If you could've voted for Stirling Moss, would you?

  1. Yes (174 votes [61.70%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 61.70%

  2. No (108 votes [38.30%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 38.30%

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#401 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 26 January 2022 - 12:43

While Frentzen had some pretty good races with Sauber, Williams signed him because he was touted to be "even faster than Schumacher when they were teammates" and Frank was desperate to get his hands on a driver who could beat Schumacher.

Frentzen was signed by Williams in 1995 wasn't he? I actually can't remember. But around that time there wasn't many who could hack it trading blows with Schumacher. Hill had quality but certainly wasn't a street fighter, wheel to wheel wasn't his strength. Hakkinen was still a little raw, inconsistent at that time and Villeneuve hadn't arrived yet. So off the back of Frentzens Sauber form, I could see why they signed HHF up. And he was very quick, let's make no mistake about it. Even as late as the 2000 season, he was on par with Trulli in qualifying and took 2 podiums, finishing ahead in the WDC.

I do believe he and Jordan were somewhat fortunate to end up with an outside shot at the 1999 WDC though. They had an exceptional season but the stars aligned for them. From Hakkinens erratic form to McLarens failures, DC being second rate, Schumacher breaking a leg, Villeneuve mired in the midfield, Irvine "leading" Ferrari etc it really was a weird season that played into their hands.

That said it would have been such a fairytale had they won it.

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#402 Alfisti

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Posted 26 January 2022 - 23:20

I still say feentzen never had a **** at the championship, it was a super long shot.

#403 Ruusperi

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 00:00

Ok fair enough. Perhaps "demolished" is too strong... but I did specify the 2008-09 seasons while they were teammates. In that time Felipe took 6 wins to 2, 6 poles to 2... almost won the 2008 championship and was ahead on points both seasons (2009 till his accident).

I think Kimi has said that once he had achieved his life goal by winning the championship, he didn't have any real passion for more after 2007, and F1 became a hobby for him, and it remained so till last season. I'm sure if he hadn't won the championship, Kimi would have been hugely motivated in 2008 and 2009 and it would have been totally different story. Maybe Massa wouldn't have had any chance for a title?

 

Also Kimi's 2008 and 2009 seasons were hindered by politics caused by Santander deal of Ferrari. More about it here: https://f1bias.com/2...santander-2008/



#404 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 00:12

Much of that sounds like excuses tbh. And it's not like Kimi was way ahead of Felipe in 2007, far from it.

#405 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 06:13

I still say feentzen never had a **** at the championship, it was a super long shot.


I agree. At the time it never felt as anything other than a straight fight between Häkkinen and Irvine (once Schumacher was out ofcourse).

#406 Aaaarrgghh

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 06:21

The points don't always tell the whole story. In 2008 Raikkonen was crashed into by Hamilton in Canada losing a likely race win and then he lost another likely race win in France due to car problems. That put him 5 points behind Massa in WDC instead of 10-11 points ahead at that point and set the tone for the rest of championship when the team had to back one driver in a close fight with Hamilton. Even then Raikkonen was firmly ahead of Massa in Belgium until he crashed out battling it out with Hamilton in slippery conditions (with the penalty for Hamilton, that was a 14 points swing in favour of Massa!) and was ahead in China but gave the position up because of team orders. It's not like Massa was that much ahead on performance.

In 2009 Massa beat Raikkonen 3-2 in races they both finished.

Massa also lost two race wins through no fault of his own that year in Hungary and Singapore, so that point gap is only half true.

Edited by Aaaarrgghh, 27 January 2022 - 06:23.


#407 aray

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 06:42

I expected the top 3 in the poll would be Montoya, Massa and Kubica in that order. Massa before the accident had been truly underrated.



#408 messy

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 08:23

I still say feentzen never had a **** at the championship, it was a super long shot.

 

 

Much as people love the romanticism of talking up Jordan's 'title shot', I agree. They were nowhere near the pace in Malaysia or Japan. Even if he'd won at the Nurburgring it was never really on. It would have felt like it after the European GP though!



#409 taran

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 11:37

Much as people love the romanticism of talking up Jordan's 'title shot', I agree. They were nowhere near the pace in Malaysia or Japan. Even if he'd won at the Nurburgring it was never really on. It would have felt like it after the European GP though!

 

I think that’s a bit of hindsight determinism. Racing has never been a pure numbers game. Motivation and emotions play a major role.

 

If Frentzen was still a major contender at that point, the other title-contending drivers and teams would have to take him into account which could have led to different decisions being made and butterflies flapping wings in a completely different way.

 

Both Irvine and Hakkinen were mentally fragile that season and clearly feeling the pressure. Just imagine adding a fired up Frentzen to the mix….or Eddie Jordan baiting Ron Dennis.



#410 JRodrigues

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 11:43

Perhaps. But put it this way - if you'd told me in 2006 that Massa would take more than twice as many poles as Raikkonen through 2007 - 2008, I probably would have laughed at you. I take into account what the expectations were prior to the battle. Maybe you don't and that's fair enough.

 

It was very easy to have more poles than your teammate back then.. you just had to go with less fuel for the qualifying session, which Massa always did.



#411 JRodrigues

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 11:45

Depends on your definition, I suppose.

The mere fact that Massa could live with Raikkonen, and beat him regularly, was totally unexpected. And when Ferrari had to make room for Alonso, they decided to ditch Raikkonen by benching him and paying his salary for two years. That tells you how much they valued Massa over Raikkonen. 

 

I think it helps if your agent is the son of your boss.. But I don't know...



#412 JRodrigues

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 12:12

The points don't always tell the whole story. In 2008 Raikkonen was crashed into by Hamilton in Canada losing a likely race win and then he lost another likely race win in France due to car problems. That put him 5 points behind Massa in WDC instead of 10-11 points ahead at that point and set the tone for the rest of championship when the team had to back one driver in a close fight with Hamilton. Even then Raikkonen was firmly ahead of Massa in Belgium until he crashed out battling it out with Hamilton in slippery conditions (with the penalty for Hamilton, that was a 14 points swing in favour of Massa!) and was ahead in China but gave the position up because of team orders. It's not like Massa was that much ahead on performance.

 

In 2009 Massa beat Raikkonen 3-2 in races they both finished.

 

Do you want another one? British GP 2008, the one that many say was one of Hamilton's greatest wins - Kimi was gaining second after second on Hamilton, until first stop. They were seperated by less than 1s. McLaren changed Hamilton's tires to a new set of inters, Ferrari didn't change Kimi's and right after that it started to rain. Kimi was losing 8s/lap because of that stupid team mistake.

 

France GP was one win less for Kimi, one more for Massa. Kimi's lead was so big to 3rd place he didn't lose another position even if he was low on power.

 

Monaco GP he was hit with a DT penalty because the team didn't have tires on before the start of the race: another podium gone.

 

The story of 2008 is well documented, but people just seem to "forget" what happened. Also, after 2006 Massa was regarded as one of the favourites for the title by many journalists and users of this and other forums (https://forums.autos...f1-2007-season/)



#413 Risil

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 12:18

I don't think Kimi drove well enough to win the title in 2008. His season wasn't the disaster that some people paint it as, but then again, when you're the world champion (and the successor to no less than Michael Schumacher) expectations are very high.



#414 Henri Greuter

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 13:05

Tambay was the Fisichella of his day.  Looked brilliant in the Ensign, was squished by a bored Hunt; brilliant in the Theodore, squished by Lafitte in the Ligier.

 

Ferrari choosing Tambay to replace Gilles was a sentimental choice that cost them the title.  Tambay missed two races because of a lack of fitness.  Had he won both of those, then he would have been champ.  Mario, implanted into the Ferrari, was instantly quicker in qualifying...

 

That is pretty harsh on Patrick in my view.

He actually joined the season for the 2nd half of the season. How realistic is it to expect from a driver to become WDC with only half of the season left to score enough points?

Besides that, in the 6 races he did race he scored 25 points and was classified 7th in the season ranking.

In fact, that he did so well was quite a miracle, given the fact that in general, the reliability in those days was nowhere near as good as it is since, say 2000. And for turbocharged cars that reliability was even ore appalling than the atmos. But Patrick finished every race he started with the turbo Ferrari.

To become champion after all was in fact next to impossible for Patrick but what he achieved in 1982 with Ferrari was close to miraculous.

 

My apologies for being so late with replying on this meassage. But I feel that I need to step up for Patrick in this one, better late, than never.
 



#415 taran

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 13:13

I think it helps if your agent is the son of your boss.. But I don't know...

 

Maybe you don't know.

 

because it didn't help him when Ferrari wanted to have Raikkonen next to Schumacher for 2007. Only Schumacher's retirement kept Massa at Ferrari.

It also didn't help him against Alonso.

 

So maybe being Nicholas Todt's client didn't help against Raikkonen but his speed did.



#416 Sterzo

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 13:50

I expected the top 3 in the poll would be Montoya, Massa and Kubica in that order. Massa before the accident had been truly underrated.

 As others have pointed out, the poll asks for one, so (quite rightly) doesn't show who all the Montoya voters would have nominated for second and third. If asked for a top 3, I'd probably have gone for Montoya, Kubica, Massa.



#417 JRodrigues

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 13:53

I don't think Kimi drove well enough to win the title in 2008. His season wasn't the disaster that some people paint it as, but then again, when you're the world champion (and the successor to no less than Michael Schumacher) expectations are very high.

 

I understand what you're saying, but do you also think Hamilton's 2016 season was bad?


Edited by JRodrigues, 27 January 2022 - 13:55.


#418 Risil

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 14:00

I understand what you're saying, but do you also think Hamilton's 2016 season was bad?

 

His first four races were fairly mediocre, but he recovered and drove at the top of his ability for the rest of the year.



#419 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 19:21

It was very easy to have more poles than your teammate back then.. you just had to go with less fuel for the qualifying session, which Massa always did.

Ok well if that doesn't tickle your fancy, try the fact that Massa won 6 races to Raikkonens 2... And lost another 1 or 2 wins through no fault of his own.

No doubting who the fastest Ferrari driver was in 2008. The plethora of excuses for Kimi still 14 years on is highly amusing.

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#420 noriaki

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 20:10

I still say feentzen never had a **** at the championship, it was a super long shot.


You can repeat it all you like but it still has no basis. Frentzen retired from a comfortable leas lead in Europe because of a miscommunication between him and his race engineer. Had that not happened, he would have been ahead of Irvine and 1 point off Hakkinen going into Malaysia.

#421 PayasYouRace

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 20:19

You can repeat it all you like but it still has no basis. Frentzen retired from a comfortable leas lead in Europe because of a miscommunication between him and his race engineer. Had that not happened, he would have been ahead of Irvine and 1 point off Hakkinen going into Malaysia.

 

That doesn't change that Frentzen would still have been a massive outsider going into those races. Jordan wouldn't have suddenly become a front runner if he'd have been 1 point off the lead.



#422 noriaki

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 20:49

That doesn't change that Frentzen would still have been a massive outsider going into those races. Jordan wouldn't have suddenly become a front runner if he'd have been 1 point off the lead.

Frentzen was a notoriously inconsistent performer and his form depended on his mood a lot. See aldo: 1997. Hence I don't think his post N'ring performances are entirely representative.

Okay I doubt he would have won the title more than 1 out of 5 times even if he had won Nurburgring - but he'd definitely have had a shot going to Suzuka.

Edited by noriaki, 27 January 2022 - 20:51.


#423 HighwayStar

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 21:21

With the Raikkonen-Massa pairing at Ferrari, the thing that most surprised me was how Massa bounced back to become the better performer in 2008 and 2009 after Raikkonen's 2007 title victory. In the early part of the 2007, specifically from Bahrain to Indianapolis (races 3-7), Massa had unexpectedly gained the upper hand but he had the advantage of being the incumbent and he was also more familiar with the Bridgestone tyres than Raikkonen, who had run on Michelins throughout his five seasons at McLaren. Most significantly, Massa had driven the Bridgestone-shod Sauber in the 2004 season which I believe were very similar to the 2007 Bridgestone 'control' tyres. I think both Raikkonen and Alonso, who struggled at times with their tyres in the early stages of the year, were having to adapt to the Bridgestones (as an aside, I suspect this would have given Michael Schumacher an excellent chance of winning the title if he had stayed). From the French GP onwards was a different story as Raikkonen was overall the more impressive performer, outscoring Massa 78-55 on points and winning five races to his team mate's one. Massa was closer than many expected, but Raikkonen had ultimately delivered the goods with the most victories of any driver that season and the WDC against a strong challenge from both McLaren drivers.

 

After the first four rounds of 2008, it seemed as though this pattern was continuing, with two wins from the first four races for Raikkonen. Massa did win in Bahrain, but that was after two pointless races, including Malaysia where he retired through an unenforced error under little pressure. With the Ferrari looking like the best car at this stage, I predicted the Finn would retain the title. Massa then did better in the next two races, including his third consecutive Turkish GP win, but Raikkonen seemed to move back ahead on pace in the following three races - as has been mentioned, he was on course to win in Magny Cours, while both Canada and Silverstone were missed opportunities for different reasons (the latter race was famously a nightmare for Massa, finishing last after five spins). The two drivers were level on points at this stage, with Raikkonen probably unlucky not to have a small lead on balance.

 

However, the pendulum clearly swung in the Brazilian driver's favour in the next three races, all of which featured Raikkonen qualifying further back and having to fight with slower cars while Massa was consistently at the front. What's more, Raikkonen was fortunate to gain six points on Massa in Hungary, where he finished third but benefitted from Massa's engine failure with just three laps to go, which deprived him of a certain and richly deserved victory (probably his best race performance apart from the Brazil title decider). In Valencia, Massa won and Raikkonen suffered an engine failure virtually identical to that suffered by his team mate in the previous race, the difference being that this probably only cost him sixth place. After this came Belgium, where Raikkonen was faster but his crash combined with Hamilton's penalty gifted victory to Massa, who had never looked like winning on track. After that point, with Massa holding a 17 point lead over Raikkonen (two points behind Lewis Hamilton) Ferrari understandably focused on his title challenge. Whatever the reason, that run of four races in summer 2008 shifted the balance of power decisively towards Massa and Raikkonen unexpectedly found himself in a supporting role, a position he would become familiar with later in his career.


Edited by HighwayStar, 27 January 2022 - 21:33.


#424 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 21:23

Frentzen was a notoriously inconsistent performer and his form depended on his mood a lot. See aldo: 1997. Hence I don't think his post N'ring performances are entirely representative.

Was he inconsistent during his Sauber and Jordan prime though? I think too much is made out of his time at Williams tbh. When in absolute reality he was just beaten by a better driver, a champion. I mean look at how inconsistent Coulthard was at McLaren through 1998-2000... yet he doesn't cop anywhere near the amount of flak that Frentzen does for his Williams years.

I've been looking back at those mid to late 90s years quite alot recently. What I found with Frentzen in 1997/98 was he actually wasn't far off JV in race trim overall. Yes Villeneuve had the higher peak performance but consistency wise...not a massive difference. Where he really struggled to match him was in qualifying. And I think it just shows Villeneuve's speed was underrated in that regard, rather than Frentzen being overrated or useless. There was absolutely nothing wrong with Frentzens qualifying efforts at Sauber 1995/96 or Jordan in 1999/2000.

The problem is - imo - everyone was blindsided by that (including Frentzen) because JV in 1996 was learning most of the tracks on race weekends. So his real qualifying speed was somewhat masked due to that disadvantage for 12 months.

People pile in on Frentzen for the Williams years but, relative to some others (DC, Barrichello, Webber to name a few), he actually wasn't any worse. Though certainly expectations for him were high... And that's what people subconsciously measure against results.

#425 RacingMonk

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 22:26

Stefan Bellof anyone?

#426 Anuity

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 23:05

For me I would put some of these drivers in different groups, the way I see it:

Group 1

Pretty, consistent, overall quite good and sometimes with flashes of brilliant performances. I find it hard who was better amongst them.

Barrichello
Coulthard
Ralf Schumacher
Berger

From when watching it live though, I always felt that Coulthard was better than Rubens though, even though I like the latter more.

Group 2:
Flashy, exciting drivers which gave impression of having potential to deliver something special, but never quite achieved it:

Montoya
Alesi
Massa
I agree that Ralf was very close to Juan Pablo overall, but i still think Montoya had a lot of talent which was maybe mismanaged/wasted. Same goes for Jean.

Group 3
Drivers which could deliver brilliant performances but were not particularly flashy nor consistent:

Frentzen
Fisichella
Trulli

I liked all three of them, in fact I find it hard to pick who was the best. I find it strange to see Frentzen on this list, but no Jarno or Fisi. These 3 were very similar to me. I personally think in their primes Fisi was slightly better.

Group 4
Unclear

Kubica

He gets a lot of praise, but looking at his career the sample is very little. He barely edged Nick Heidfeld, who was a very good driver. Yes, Alonso and Hamilton rated him very highly. But Alonso rated highly Hulkenberg and Vandoorne.

Group 5
Overrated

Webber

I personally think he was the least talented than all of these drivers, but got the best car than either of them for several years and collected many more wins than some of them.


For me personally my top 3 would be:

1. Montoya (mind you, Ralf was very close, I just think Montoya was a tad more special)
2. Massa ( I think totally underrated)
3. Alesi ( just because I’m his fan. I only saw Berger in since his Ferrari days, and Jean was usually better)

#427 Yamamoto

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 23:15

With the Raikkonen-Massa pairing at Ferrari, the thing that most surprised me was how Massa bounced back to become the better performer in 2008 and 2009 after Raikkonen's 2007 title victory. In the early part of the 2007, specifically from Bahrain to Indianapolis (races 3-7), Massa had unexpectedly gained the upper hand but he had the advantage of being the incumbent and he was also more familiar with the Bridgestone tyres than Raikkonen, who had run on Michelins throughout his five seasons at McLaren. Most significantly, Massa had driven the Bridgestone-shod Sauber in the 2004 season which I believe were very similar to the 2007 Bridgestone 'control' tyres. I think both Raikkonen and Alonso, who struggled at times with their tyres in the early stages of the year, were having to adapt to the Bridgestones (as an aside, I suspect this would have given Michael Schumacher an excellent chance of winning the title if he had stayed). From the French GP onwards was a different story as Raikkonen was overall the more impressive performer, outscoring Massa 78-55 on points and winning five races to his team mate's one. Massa was closer than many expected, but Raikkonen had ultimately delivered the goods with the most victories of any driver that season and the WDC against a strong challenge from both McLaren drivers.

 

After the first four rounds of 2008, it seemed as though this pattern was continuing, with two wins from the first four races for Raikkonen. Massa did win in Bahrain, but that was after two pointless races, including Malaysia where he retired through an unenforced error under little pressure. With the Ferrari looking like the best car at this stage, I predicted the Finn would retain the title. Massa then did better in the next two races, including his third consecutive Turkish GP win, but Raikkonen seemed to move back ahead on pace in the following three races - as has been mentioned, he was on course to win in Magny Cours, while both Canada and Silverstone were missed opportunities for different reasons (the latter race was famously a nightmare for Massa, finishing last after five spins). The two drivers were level on points at this stage, with Raikkonen probably unlucky not to have a small lead on balance.

 

However, the pendulum clearly swung in the Brazilian driver's favour in the next three races, all of which featured Raikkonen qualifying further back and having to fight with slower cars while Massa was consistently at the front. What's more, Raikkonen was fortunate to gain six points on Massa in Hungary, where he finished third but benefitted from Massa's engine failure with just three laps to go, which deprived him of a certain and richly deserved victory (probably his best race performance apart from the Brazil title decider). In Valencia, Massa won and Raikkonen suffered an engine failure virtually identical to that suffered by his team mate in the previous race, the difference being that this probably only cost him sixth place. After this came Belgium, where Raikkonen was faster but his crash combined with Hamilton's penalty gifted victory to Massa, who had never looked like winning on track. After that point, with Massa holding a 17 point lead over Raikkonen (two points behind Lewis Hamilton) Ferrari understandably focused on his title challenge. Whatever the reason, that run of four races in summer 2008 shifted the balance of power decisively towards Massa and Raikkonen unexpectedly found himself in a supporting role, a position he would become familiar with later in his career.

 

This is a very good summary. Kimi had a lot of struggles in qualifying this year. As well as struggling to heat the tyres, he often took more fuel, but also had a tendency to only ignite part-way through a race. He probably would have stronger results had DRS been a thing in 2008. He also had misfortune and mistakes in some of his stronger races. And it seems like Massa was loved internally, I think Felipe needed that to perform at his best. The difficult question, and it changes Massa's standing in the context of the thread question, is whether his 2009 incident made him a lesser driver, explaining his gap to Alonso and subsequent deficit to Bottas.



#428 danmills

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 23:38

Bottas needs to be high on that list. Up there with Rubens and DC.

For every 'he had the best car' comment you could equally knock off each of their fellow teammates titles.

Look up the Formula 1.5 threads on reddit which remove all results of the top 2 teams and create alternative results bumping everyone else up.

Bottas earns his crust from his Williams years. As does Massa.

#429 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 05:35

Bottas needs to be high on that list. Up there with Rubens and DC.

For every 'he had the best car' comment you could equally knock off each of their fellow teammates titles.

Look up the Formula 1.5 threads on reddit which remove all results of the top 2 teams and create alternative results bumping everyone else up.

Bottas earns his crust from his Williams years. As does Massa.

Bottas would score very high on a list of ”most seasons in the best car without winning the WDC”

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 28 January 2022 - 05:35.


#430 TheFish

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 08:05

Bottas would score very high on a list of ”most seasons in the best car without winning the WDC”

 

Him and Rubens could have a lovely fight together over that one. I think Rubens would just edge it.



#431 Nemo1965

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 08:16

I would like to sharpen the question of the thread a bit... Although I also believe that given the right circumstances Montoya, Berger and Ralf Schumacher could have been world-champions, I don't believe that WHEN they were active, the were the best driver in F1 at that time. While Stirling Moss, IMHO, was certainly the best driver in F1 for, say, between Fangio and Clark. And retired without being champion.

 

Even multiple champions often have years when they are the best and still didn't win championships (yet or not that year). I believe Prost was the best driver in F1 from early on in 1981. Michael Schumacher in 1993 or perhaps even 1992. In hindsight, Hamilton in 2007 was - incredibly enough - immediately the best. I believe that Verstappen has been the best since 2018. And still needed quite amazing circumstances to win in 2021.

 

So... was there a driver since 1983 that was the best in F1 in any given year, who did not win the championship in his whole career?

 

PS: Reading back my post. I believe Montoya had several races in which he was the best in F1, but never over the year and for certain not for his whole F1-career.


Edited by Nemo1965, 28 January 2022 - 08:17.


#432 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 08:31

I would like to sharpen the question of the thread a bit... Although I also believe that given the right circumstances Montoya, Berger and Ralf Schumacher could have been world-champions, I don't believe that WHEN they were active, the were the best driver in F1 at that time. While Stirling Moss, IMHO, was certainly the best driver in F1 for, say, between Fangio and Clark. And retired without being champion.

 

Even multiple champions often have years when they are the best and still didn't win championships (yet or not that year). I believe Prost was the best driver in F1 from early on in 1981. Michael Schumacher in 1993 or perhaps even 1992. In hindsight, Hamilton in 2007 was - incredibly enough - immediately the best. I believe that Verstappen has been the best since 2018. And still needed quite amazing circumstances to win in 2021.

 

So... was there a driver since 1983 that was the best in F1 in any given year, who did not win the championship in his whole career?

 

PS: Reading back my post. I believe Montoya had several races in which he was the best in F1, but never over the year and for certain not for his whole F1-career.

 

The only driver in history who was ranked 1st in the Autocourse top ten for a year, but never won the WDC was Frentzen in 1999.

 

Not a perfect way to judge these things, but at least it's something. :)



#433 taran

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 08:33

Stefan Bellof anyone?

 

Like quite a few others, Bellof seemed to have great potential. But he was never in an actual title fight in F1 so we really don't know if he could have put up an actual championship fight or if he would disappoint in a genuine front-running car. 



#434 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 08:37

The only driver in history who was ranked 1st in the Autocourse top ten for a year, but never won the WDC was Frentzen in 1999.

Not a perfect way to judge these things, but at least it's something. :)

Yep was thinking the same. I'd put forward Montoya in 2003 also. It's debatable whether he was the outright best driver that season but he's certainly in the conversation.

#435 Secretariat

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 13:20

I would like to sharpen the question of the thread a bit...

 

So... was there a driver since 1983 that was the best in F1 in any given year, who did not win the championship in his whole career?

For this question: Kubica 2008, For the larger question of the thread and voting, I will reaffirm: Barrichello . 



#436 messy

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 13:36

For this question: Kubica 2008, For the larger question of the thread and voting, I will reaffirm: Barrichello . 

 

Kubica 2008, Frentzen 1999, Ricciardo 2014, 2016. And I'm assuming Danny Ric won't win a title now. 



#437 noriaki

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Posted 29 January 2022 - 10:30

Stefan Bellof anyone?


Bellof's legend lives off his sportscar performances and one race at Monaco. In F1 he was regularly shaded by an inexperienced Brundle. We don't know how good he might have been, but if we name him we might as well discuss poor Jules Bianchi.

#438 Claymore25

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Posted 07 February 2022 - 13:59

Berger for me but I am always biased towards him. My first favourite driver.



#439 absinthedude

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Posted 07 February 2022 - 15:03

it is worth remembering that for two of his three seasons in the McLaren, Berger was given a cockpit that he didn't fit into. He was possibly the tallest F1 driver at the time, and the cockpit was designed around the shorter Senna. He got muscle cramps and other issues which didn't permit him to give of his best in 1990 and 1991. Not that Senna wasn't better. But I don't think we saw the best of Berger at Ferrari in 1989 due to his Imola crash or in the two years he drove a fully competitive McLaren. The 1993 Ferrari was a joke, he bounced back in the 1994 Ferrari before going to Benetton and a car which was still bespoke designed for Michael Schumacher who loved a planted frond end and lots of oversteer. 


Edited by absinthedude, 07 February 2022 - 15:04.


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#440 Atreiu

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Posted 07 February 2022 - 15:50

it is worth remembering that for two of his three seasons in the McLaren, Berger was given a cockpit that he didn't fit into. He was possibly the tallest F1 driver at the time, and the cockpit was designed around the shorter Senna. He got muscle cramps and other issues which didn't permit him to give of his best in 1990 and 1991. Not that Senna wasn't better. But I don't think we saw the best of Berger at Ferrari in 1989 due to his Imola crash or in the two years he drove a fully competitive McLaren. The 1993 Ferrari was a joke, he bounced back in the 1994 Ferrari before going to Benetton and a car which was still bespoke designed for Michael Schumacher who loved a planted frond end and lots of oversteer. 

 

I often think the difference between Mansell and him was luck when switching teams. Without the FW14 and FW11 Mansell would have simply been another wildy inconsistent fast driver with punctuated wins here and there and he'd be in the same boat as Berger, great on his day but overshadowed by the greats of the era.



#441 absinthedude

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Posted 07 February 2022 - 20:16

I often think the difference between Mansell and him was luck when switching teams. Without the FW14 and FW11 Mansell would have simply been another wildy inconsistent fast driver with punctuated wins here and there and he'd be in the same boat as Berger, great on his day but overshadowed by the greats of the era.

 

Possible. And if he'd not had the FW11 he might never have been looked upon by any team as a potential WDC. Just goes to show how getting and grabbing your opportunity is important.

 

Berger is a case in point. He got hold of a car which was capable of the odd win, and won in Mexico 1986....took the opportunity to go to Ferrari and handily beat the incumbent Michele Alboreto, who was not only Italian but who had been a winner himself and challenged for the 1985 title in a Ferrari. When Mansell joined for 1989, making what looked like a *very* strong team, Gerhard had the misfortune to suffer his terrifying accident and thereafter had a very diffcult season. Perhaps he was affected by the crash, and he certainly got more of the unreliability issues of the Ferrari 640. Then off to McLaren where the car didn't fit him....when McLaren finally made him a suitable chassis they weren't wholly competitive. He finished just one point behind Senna but they were 4th and 5th in the table. 

 

Who knows....if he'd been able to switch to McLaren a year earlier, or if Benetton had made a car that suited him in 1996...maybe we'd have seen a title attempt. 



#442 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 07 February 2022 - 20:40

Mansell certainly was a level below the likes of Senna and Prost. But I feel he was still a level above anybody else in that late 80's, early 90's period.

It's easy to say give Berger the FW14B and he would have replicated what Mansell did. But would he have? Okay we know it was the best car by a mile all season... but Nigel destroyed everyone. Including Patrese who was competitive only a year earlier.

Also would Berger have been as competitive against Piquet at Williams in 1986/87? At times perhaps... but Berger lacked sustained excellence. His consistency just wasn't there enough, whereas Mansell had a number of strong seasons and I feel he had a top gear that Berger just didn't possess.

Then there was what Mansell did in CART. Particularly his strength on the ovals. I struggle to see Berger replicating Mansells performances in the US. Against a very strong IndyCar field.

I like Berger. He was clearly my choice in this poll. But I think he sat firmly behind the "big 4" of that era. Best of the rest, so to speak.

#443 absinthedude

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Posted 07 February 2022 - 21:37

There's no doubting that Nigel Mansell was the next best behind Senna and Prost. And not that far behind....he simply lacked that final 1% that made them the greatest of their generation. He also had mixed luck....I've mentioned how he was fortunate to end up in the cars he did....but equally he was unlucky not to be a double or triple WDC. Even Piquet acknowledges these days that Nigel should have won in 1987. 

 

In that period 1992/93, it is valid to ask if he wasn't the best racing driver in the world. 



#444 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 07 February 2022 - 22:22

In that period 1992/93, it is valid to ask if he wasn't the best racing driver in the world.

He's absolutely in that conversation. To do the F1/CART title double - back to back - was something special. Senna probably still takes top billing, particularly looking at his 1993 performances. But during that period Mansell was probably the closest he'd ever been to Senna in terms of quality.

It would have been wild to see both of them in CART. Mansell v the Penskes in '93 was box office.