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Oracle Red Bull Racing Team 2022


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#1 WouterF1

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 17:02

Other Red Bull engine plan: Honda longer involved in F1 project

27 Jan. 2022 11:00
Honda will remain involved in Formula 1 and Red Bull's engine project in the background for much longer than previously communicated.
 Helmut Marko reveals that all engines up to and including the 2025 F1 season will come from Japan.
 Related to this, Red Bull is not yet taking over the intellectual property of the engine from Honda, as stated in the first plan.

[ ....... ]

Helmut Marko:
"In the course of our successes, there has been a certain rethink among the Japanese. Then came the realization that they can use all the knowledge about the batteries in F1 for their electrification of the road cars.
 Initially, the intention was that Honda would only deliver our engines for 2022, but it has now been decided that this will last until 2025. This is of course a huge advantage for us and means that we only have to do the fine tuning and calibrations ourselves."


https://nl.motorspor...roject/7647046/

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#2 Kao18

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 17:43

Great news I guess but I do wonder what this means for all the investments made and money spend on the new facilities and hiring of lots of personnel. I am sure they will be put to good use somehow but its a pretty big sudden(?) change of course.



#3 ARTGP

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 17:53

Fascinating. The “pullout” from Honda seems so silly now. They built this engine which will be homologated and locked in until 2025. All they had to do was mail in Honda stickers for the next 3 years. Now they’ll do all the work anyway, and get none of the promotion.

Edited by ARTGP, 27 January 2022 - 17:59.


#4 Ivanhoe

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 18:17

Fascinating. The “pullout” from Honda seems so silly now. They built this engine which will be homologated and locked in until 2025. All they had to do was mail in Honda stickers for the next 3 years. Now they’ll do all the work anyway, and get none of the promotion.

This ‘arrangement’ undoubtedly involves some advertisement room on the RB18 - 20. I hope to see Honda on the rear wing for the next 4 years to come.



#5 Misk

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 18:19

Fascinating. The “pullout” from Honda seems so silly now. They built this engine which will be homologated and locked in until 2025. All they had to do was mail in Honda stickers for the next 3 years. Now they’ll do all the work anyway, and get none of the promotion.

This is the team that walked away from a WCC and WDC winning car in 2009, so I can't say it's that surprising given their previous decision making when it comes to F1. :stoned:



#6 UncleSam

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 19:07

Great news I guess but I do wonder what this means for all the investments made and money spend on the new facilities and hiring of lots of personnel. I am sure they will be put to good use somehow but its a pretty big sudden(?) change of course.


On one side of the RB powertrains garage they will do the calibration and static testing of the Honda engine which was previously done a few miles down the road in a Honda facility and on the other side they will startup the Audi/Porsche engine project. Honda doesn't mind learning RB powertrains a thing or 2 about engine operations and having them take a look at the engine from the outside but they sure don't want to give them the IP any more now that another manufacturer is getting involved.

Edited by UncleSam, 27 January 2022 - 19:12.


#7 ForzaFerrari3928

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 19:28

Fascinating. The “pullout” from Honda seems so silly now. They built this engine which will be homologated and locked in until 2025. All they had to do was mail in Honda stickers for the next 3 years. Now they’ll do all the work anyway, and get none of the promotion.

 

If I recall, the reason the engines were frozen until 2025 was because Honda was pulling out and Red Bull didn't want to go to another engine supplier so it was decided that Red Bull will invest a bit to take over the Honda engines and maintain the engines and all teams agreed to freeze develop to maintain engine performance parity.



#8 Alexis*27

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 10:20

Oh dear! Honda only ever win when they've either announced they're leaving or they've already left!



#9 wj_gibson

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 10:28

I believe this means that the team will now continue to be Red Bull-Honda in exactly the same way as it has been for the last three years.



#10 SenorSjon

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 10:38

And RB will pull a Mercedes with developing the new engine itself. There also seems to be rules in place to entice new participants, making it worthwile to make it a 'DIY' project.



#11 Pingu Pi

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 10:42

I said this last year... This is appearing more and more like a well cunning ploy to force F1s hand into an engine freeze to stop the costs and not have to compete in a development chase with Mercedes as well as develop their 2026 engine.

Magically bringing forth an entire years development on and engine through 'hard work' was a bit of a con... that engine was always going to be on the track.

Pretty clever stuff by RBR&Honda.

#12 onewingedangel

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 10:44

It'll be stupid for the engines to be called anything other than Honda, even if there's no branding on the car itself, which will be a commercial rather than technical agreement.

#13 Lennat

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 11:16

And it would seem stupid not to include some branding on the car as well.



#14 Lennat

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 11:24

I guess Red Bull want concessions and Honda don't want Porsche/Audi to get their intellectual property. My bet is on Honda basically offering the engines at cost in return for some free stickers on the car.



#15 Scaboo22

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 11:29

Pretty much nothing changes, except for more of the costs being covered by RBR.



#16 oli4

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 11:30

I said this last year... This is appearing more and more like a well cunning ploy to force F1s hand into an engine freeze to stop the costs and not have to compete in a development chase with Mercedes as well as develop their 2026 engine.

Magically bringing forth an entire years development on and engine through 'hard work' was a bit of a con... that engine was always going to be on the track.

Pretty clever stuff by RBR&Honda.

 

Since Honda is back, there is no use of an engine freeze. The one with the worst engine will start demanding a stop of the freeze after a couple of races.



#17 Burai

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 11:39

And it would seem stupid not to include some branding on the car as well.

 

Not if Red Bull are paying for this new arrangement. None of Ferrari or Mercedes' customers carry their branding.



#18 Nathan

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 14:01

Fascinating. The “pullout” from Honda seems so silly now. They built this engine which will be homologated and locked in until 2025. All they had to do was mail in Honda stickers for the next 3 years. Now they’ll do all the work anyway, and get none of the promotion.

 

I liked this but, but while we see F1 as promotion it is also counter to where Honda product is going.  Basically, it is counter to other Honda promotions.



#19 ARTGP

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 15:27

I liked this but, but while we see F1 as promotion it is also counter to where Honda product is going.  Basically, it is counter to other Honda promotions.

 

I like to use the Red Bull example to understand how promotion works in F1. Red Bull is not a car manufacturer. There's a disconnect between the fine detail of what Red Bull do in F1, and the product they actually sell. 


Edited by ARTGP, 28 January 2022 - 15:52.


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#20 timmy bolt

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 15:45

This decision makes sense.

I think RBR were going to struggle to maintain quality over the next few years (there are only so many f1 experienced engine engineers in the UK, most at Merc and still at Merc except some headline names) and they just can't get their workforce up and running in time.

Conversely, Honda now have a good engine and there presence makes much more marketing sense than it did even a year or 2 ago and their engines couldn't compete.

#21 w00dy

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 08:33

Longish interview with Max in the Guardian:

 

https://www.theguard...lly-deserved-it

 

He seems a bit insecure about last year's WDC. 

Also, no mention of Perez, so he's clearly a #2.



#22 A3

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 08:50

Longish interview with Max in the Guardian:

 

https://www.theguard...lly-deserved-it

 

He seems a bit insecure about last year's WDC. 

Also, no mention of Perez, so he's clearly a #2.

 

I have read the article and I have no idea how you concluded he's a bit insecure on last year's WDC?



#23 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 08:59

He seems a bit insecure about last year's WDC.

You're brave saying that here.

#24 Fraser1994

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 09:23

Longish interview with Max in the Guardian:

https://www.theguard...lly-deserved-it

He seems a bit insecure about last year's WDC.
Also, no mention of Perez, so he's clearly a #2.


I read it the exact opposite

#25 Viryfan

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 09:31

https://twitter.com/...912998592237569

 

It seems that we should hear something from Honda tomorrow...



#26 Muppetmad

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 09:47

Just as I wouldn't wish what happened to Hamilton on any driver, I wouldn't wish what happened to Verstappen on any driver either. It is psychologically challenging to come to terms with achieving a lifelong dream while also recognising - and I mean truly recognising - the abnormal circumstances that ultimately led to that achievement. This interview, I think, is simply evidence of that. Time - and, perhaps, further world titles - might help Verstappen with this.



#27 Ivanhoe

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 09:59

Don't think he's really that bothered. The circumstances may have been abnormal but I'm convinced that he feels the best driver over a season won the championship. Lewis may have been robbed, but Max didn't steal anything.



#28 w00dy

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 10:19

I have read the article and I have no idea how you concluded he's a bit insecure on last year's WDC?

 

It's difficult to handle these interviews.He probably said a million things, and they edit these.

 

These stick out for me: Saying that he deserved it. It's true, but not humble. The line about the FIA commission? "Yeah, but they can’t do anything,” That's just, well, if not insecure then insensitive.

 

Anyway, I'm not his fan exactly, but I am happy that someone finally ended the Hamilton era.



#29 TheFish

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 10:42

Don't think he's really that bothered. The circumstances may have been abnormal but I'm convinced that he feels the best driver over a season won the championship. Lewis may have been robbed, but Max didn't steal anything.

Even if he does believe that, it still must sting a bit that the realisation of the dream is done by underhanded ways (not from him or his team) and that even the FIA referred to the image of it as tarnished. Again, not his fault, but others have been more fortunate in how they won their first title.



#30 as65p

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 11:16

Even if he does believe that, it still must sting a bit that the realisation of the dream is done by underhanded ways (not from him or his team) and that even the FIA referred to the image of it as tarnished.

 

 

What if it just doesn't? :D



#31 Stephane

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 11:32

https://twitter.com/...912998592237569

It seems that we should hear something from Honda tomorrow...


Just the annual celebration, don't expect anything special.

#32 jpm2019

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 11:54

What if it just doesn't? :D

 

Then TheFish will say it does. 



#33 Sam1

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 12:04

I guess this means if we see good results in the next year or two form redbull we will see a groveling return from Honda then seem to seen the light after all and not sold up on the IP

#34 TheFish

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 12:09

Not at all. Good on him if he can do that. He doesn't seem to have the personality to do that though, especially with the repeated questions about Abu Dhabi. He has a history of not reacting well to journalist questions.



#35 JeePee

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 12:17

Some Lewis fans like to believe it stings, but probably the only thing that stings with Max is the headache he's had for being drunk since Abu Dhabi.



#36 jpm2019

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 12:30

Not at all. Good on him if he can do that. He doesn't seem to have the personality to do that though, especially with the repeated questions about Abu Dhabi. He has a history of not reacting well to journalist questions.

 

So now you're qualified to do a psychoanalysis of Max Verstappen  :rotfl:

 

My own psychoanalysis is that you are trying to get comfort by convincing yourself that Max is crying himself to sleep every night thinking he is not a worthy champion. 

 

I don't really care, you can do whatever makes you feel better or helps you get over Max getting WDC. But for me this fantasy you are trying to sell is getting a bit boring. 



#37 A3

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 13:02

It's difficult to handle these interviews.He probably said a million things, and they edit these.

 

These stick out for me: Saying that he deserved it. It's true, but not humble. The line about the FIA commission? "Yeah, but they can’t do anything,” That's just, well, if not insecure then insensitive.

 

Anyway, I'm not his fan exactly, but I am happy that someone finally ended the Hamilton era.

 

It's not the first interview he's done since winning the title and it's the same everytime. He's convinced he would have won the title much earlier wasn't it for bad luck and Silverstone. Even if Hamilton was quicker in the last race, there's nothing he says that suggests he feels insecure about the 2021 title.

"yeah, but they can't do anything" - how is that isecure or insensitive? He's saying that whatever the outcome of the inquiry will be, he's convinced it's his title and well deserved.



#38 ARTGP

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 13:12

It would be cool if they can find a way to actually surprise us with the livery reveal.  I'm 99% sure I already know what it will look like  :wave:


Edited by ARTGP, 08 February 2022 - 13:13.


#39 Requiem84

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 13:14

I just read the Guardian article and I'm very surprised people are reading insecurity in it. How can one confuse 'insecurity' with 'confidence'? 

 

It's Max being Max, as he was from the first day in F1, as he was in 2016 when he moved to RB as he was in 2021 when he took the fight to Mercedes and Hamilton. 

 

It's Max being Max. 



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#40 Laptom

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 14:02

Not at all. Good on him if he can do that. He doesn't seem to have the personality to do that though, especially with the repeated questions about Abu Dhabi. He has a history of not reacting well to journalist questions.

 

When did he not react well to journalist questions?

The headbutt comment, I think it was a perfectly balanced answer at that time. The Ocon sage? Sorry to say, but Max will always be a rough and honest person. Also his answers, although they are already a bit to polished, are straight to the point. He is not the polished marketing machine as Lewis, Leclerq or Ocon. 



#41 Sparky68

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 14:25

It would be cool if they can find a way to actually surprise us with the livery reveal.  I'm 99% sure I already know what it will look like  :wave:

:rotfl:



#42 A3

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 15:00

:rotfl:

Are you laughing about the first bit of his post or the last? ;)



#43 as65p

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 15:11

Not at all. Good on him if he can do that. He doesn't seem to have the personality to do that though, especially with the repeated questions about Abu Dhabi. He has a history of not reacting well to journalist questions.

That would be a completely unrelated matter. It's possible for journos to rile up each and every person with questions, if that's their goal. Doesn't even matter what question, just the way it may be asked, how often and how not accepting possible answers. Normally, in a tight circle like F1 where always the same people meet every fortnight, a journo would take care not to burn too many bridges, though. But who knows, maybe the british press contingent will chose one from their ranks to sacrifice himself and persist on AD, until he finally earns himself the punch in the face the rest of his collaegues can then bitch about for the next decade. :p



#44 Wolbo

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 15:35

It would be cool if they can find a way to actually surprise us with the livery reveal.  I'm 99% sure I already know what it will look like  :wave:

Hope not, love the livery.



#45 ARTGP

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 20:10

Hope not, love the livery.

 

It's fine as it is, but there are many ways to put blue, red, and yellow on an F1 car.  They regularly tease us with the testing liveries, then go quite conservative for season.


Edited by ARTGP, 08 February 2022 - 20:10.


#46 ARTGP

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Posted 09 February 2022 - 17:29

Some answers now as to the sponsorship changes.

 

Oracle title sponsorship and HRC logo on the engine cover (Honda Racing Corporation). Long live HRC

 

35-355039_hrc-logo-vector-eps-free-downl


Edited by ARTGP, 09 February 2022 - 17:29.


#47 ExFlagMan

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Posted 09 February 2022 - 17:58

Looks like Mr Horner failed to read the small print.....

 

Horner’s bid for Mercedes tour helps raise £46k for Grand Prix Trust (autosport.com)

 

 

 

However, it has emerged that the terms and conditions of the prize mean that Horner may not be able to take up the offer of the tour. The small print reads: “Please note that employees of other Formula 1 teams are not eligible to take this tour.”


#48 mcjohnson

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Posted 09 February 2022 - 18:25

Looks like Mr Horner failed to read the small print.....

 

Horner’s bid for Mercedes tour helps raise £46k for Grand Prix Trust (autosport.com)

 

Like Mr. Horner is ever going to let the small print stop him doing anything....



#49 Cliff

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Posted 16 February 2022 - 10:45

Another big sponsordeal, apparently worth 150 million over 3 years, has just been announced. Added with the 100 mil a year from Oracle, Red Bull easily reach the budget cap with just these two sponsors. I guess they will put all their money they'd normally spend into the engine.

 

https://twitter.com/...893432070316037



#50 pRy

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Posted 16 February 2022 - 10:54

“This is also a key mission for the team and Bybit’s assistance will help us build a deeper more immersive and unique connection with the team for fans around the world.”


Sounds a lot like NFT. Perhaps F1 is about to experience how badly that concept is going down in Gaming. The logo doesn't look great on the car.