137 replies to this topic

[Michael Ferner]

No, but it's your line of reasoning! "Why blame the one who started this all (out of the blue, no less)"

[cpbell]

It's 1991 and an unofficial running of a car. Lack of information wouldn't have meant it didn't happen. Someone made a claim. We investigated it both conceptually and factually. A conversation that started on Thursday afternoon was sorted out by Sunday evening. So what's the problem? People seem offended that some of us went "Could it have happened? Is it even possible? I mean, that's scientific method no? 

 

Although as I said, a PR shoot with no PR photos is kinda damning. But we went one better and Nigel provided expert testimony. It's resolved. 

 

Now, if people want to bang on that this still MIGHT have happened, that's professionally stupid. 

Hear, hear!  We're back the the problem I mentioned before - it seems that only those with the resources and/or contacts to determine the fact of the matter are allowed to even discuss such questions, as any hypotheses that are later shown to have been incorrect are not allowed to even be made.

[Michael Ferner]

Censorship? I wasn't aware that any posts have been deleted!

[Ross Stonefeld]

Someone made an odd claim. It didn't sound right but it was not logically impossible.

 

People checked contemporary periodicals and found no evidence of it. But given the scenario described there may not have been grounds for coverage(weeklies arent always invited to sponsor shoots, especially before the images are meant to be public) so a lack of confirmation isn't as good as evidence to the contrary. It remained an unverified, unlikely, claim but not a disproven one.

 

And while we waited for official confirmation we toyed with the idea. Is there anything that makes it impossible rather than improbable? It's a discussion forum after all. I don't think anyone here insisted it DID happen. Merely queried if it was possible and it happened why was this story 'buried' for so long. We ran the rule over the story from bench racing to analysis to official evidence.

 

I guess people are upset they saw the process rather than the result? I completely understand being angry at the YouTube video. He ran a clip he knew was unsourced(he said as much when he announced it on twitter) so he was knowingly farming for clicks. So **** that guy and his credulous viewers. But I see nothing wrong with us taking something put into the public sphere and running it through the history machine. To dismiss it with the wave of a hand, not having double checked, is as bad as swallowing it whole. 

 

I learned more about people in this thread than I did about racing in the early 90s... 

[cpbell]

Censorship? I wasn't aware that any posts have been deleted!

Not in the strict sense, but in the sense that the great unwashed (i.e. your humble correspondent and Mr. A Millward of somewhere in the West Midlands) should be slapped-down for daring to speculate as to the veracity of a reported historical event while the guilded ones are consulting the evidence (or, in the case of Mr. Beresford, speaking with former colleagues) to determine whether it did or did not happen.  As I said, if someone took Millward's video as being a 100% accurate account of the events that day in Arizona then they're an idiot.  You continue referencing Trump's lies about losing the election - one of the multiple differences between these cases is that Millward stated in the video that he could not verify the story and that it might not have happened (which Trump didn't). 

Edited by cpbell, 01 February 2022 - 15:45.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Well if you don't believe your own story don't upload it. That's worse than being enthusiastic and sloppy. That's misinformation to a T.

[PayasYouRace]

That was a subtle reminder that tyre manufacturers spend thousands of dollars each year to tailor their tyres to particular tracks, which can easily amount to half a second, perhaps full second(s) in performance. McLaren would have had no wheels to fit the specific Phoenix Goodyears, nor would any Indycar wheels have fitted the McLaren. Another aspect your 'scientific' analysis completely ignored.

Also, I do know, of course, that "most of the Indycars of that era were British designed", but that only highlights another shortcoming of your thesis. Cars don't turn up at any one track and perform at their best, they are continuously developed to peak performance. Why are some teams qualifying their Lolas on the front row, while others fail to make the race? It's the American teams that do that development, and it's them who you insult. McLaren appear at a photo shoot, and then go out onto the track without even any guesswork as to suspension setups, and with the springs and dampers that just happen to be on the cars (or rolling around in the transporter), and bang, they lap at the pace of the American frontrunners? Dream on...

What you still seem to be missing is this: The F1 car is naturally quicker than the Indycar, on just about any circuit. Therefore, it wouldn’t need to be at its best out of the box to set similar times.

Given equal cars, I’d agree with you absolutely. But we’re not talking about equal cars. For a simple run of a couple of laps, the F1 would have had a good advantage built in already.

[cpbell]

Someone made an odd claim. It didn't sound right but it was not logically impossible.

 

People checked contemporary periodicals and found no evidence of it. But given the scenario described there may not have been grounds for coverage(weeklies arent always invited to sponsor shoots, especially before the images are meant to be public) so a lack of confirmation isn't as good as evidence to the contrary. It remained an unverified, unlikely, claim but not a disproven one.

 

And while we waited for official confirmation we toyed with the idea. Is there anything that makes it impossible rather than improbable? It's a discussion forum after all. I don't think anyone here insisted it DID happen. Merely queried if it was possible and it happened why was this story 'buried' for so long. We ran the rule over the story from bench racing to analysis to official evidence.

 

I guess people are upset they saw the process rather than the result? I completely understand being angry at the YouTube video. He ran a clip he knew was unsourced(he said as much when he announced it on twitter) so he was knowingly farming for clicks. So **** that guy and his credulous viewers. But I see nothing wrong with us taking something put into the public sphere and running it through the history machine. To dismiss it with the wave of a hand, not having double checked, is as bad as swallowing it whole. 

 

I learned more about people in this thread than I did about racing in the early 90s... 

Agreed, except that I really don't understand the hate here for Millward.  He is allowed to use Twitter to promote his videos in the same way that the cigarette company in question was, at the time, allowed to use McLarens and Penskes to promote their cigarettes.  It feels like a tremendous double standard to me, given that Millward was careful to state that he could not verify the story as he was told it.  Bear in mind also that he isn't old enough to have first-hand recollections of that era.  What I'd love to see us investigate is what was printed in Autosport in 1994, after Senna's death, that supposedly mentioned this non-existent test.

Edited by cpbell, 01 February 2022 - 15:53.

[cpbell]

Well if you don't believe your own story don't upload it. That's worse than being enthusiastic and sloppy. That's misinformation to a T.

I can't speak for him, but I get the feeling that he thought it might have happened, so why not discuss it?  As I said, Youtube is not an academic, peer-reviewed publication. 

Edited by cpbell, 01 February 2022 - 15:52.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Because the video has over 30,000 views. Which was his goal. Not to be correct.

[cpbell]

Because the video has over 30,000 views. Which was his goal. Not to be correct.

His goal, I suggest, was to make a popular video on a subject that interested him and which he seemed to think might have happened.

[cpbell]

Anyway, with that, I'm leaving the thread and TNF.   

Edited by cpbell, 01 February 2022 - 16:13.

[Ross Stonefeld]

But he said, even when he published it, he didn't think it happened. He wasn't debunking some widely circulated rumor he was perpetuating it.

[cpbell]

But he said, even when he published it, he didn't think it happened. He wasn't debunking some widely circulated rumor he was perpetuating it.

Please read the above post.

[BRG]

His goal, I suggest, was to make a popular video on a subject that interested him and which he seemed to think might have happened.

He's a YouTuber.  His goal is to make a living from the videos he posts.  Call it clickbait of you want, but anyone with an active YouTube channel isn't doing it just for fun.

 

And please do not desert TNF over this bit of silliness.  We need all the rational posters that we can muster.

[cpbell]

He's a YouTuber.  His goal is to make a living from the videos he posts.  Call it clickbait of you want, but anyone with an active YouTube channel isn't doing it just for fun.

 

And please do not desert TNF over this bit of silliness.  We need all the rational posters that we can muster.

Hence why I typed "a popular video".  He does indeed make a living from Youtube - how, I do not profess to understand.  Thanks for the kind words, but I feel that it is time for me to leave the party and make my way home.

[John Ginger]

Thanks for the kind words, but I feel that it is time for me to leave the party and make my way home.

 

I for one would second Mr BRG's request, please don't leave...

 

This place is all about open discussion in a respectful manner, this one has just got a little out of hand that's all

[djr900]

Anyway, with that, I'm leaving the thread and TNF.   

That's a shame, but fully understandable

[Vitesse2]

The video which started all this hooha credits the whole thing to one 'Declan Hackett on Quora' recounting something he remembered reading in about 1994. Mr Hackett is not hard to track down via Google. I have just done a trawl through his posting history (or some of it - he has made over 1500 posts on Quora, mainly about Brexit, railways and guitars) but haven't been able to find him saying anything about this. He did inform me that Rudi Caracciola won the 1929 British Grand Prix though.

 

The arguments here - such as they are - have descended into angels dancing on the head of a pin territory. I'm not sure any of it is relevant anyway, given that we now seem to be 99.999% certain that it never happened.

 

Earlier in this thread, I did suggest that the source might be the April 1st 1993 issue of Autosport. Surely someone here will have that issue to hand?

[2F-001]

I went scurrying off to consult Autosport - only to remember that they are a few miles away in a storage unit... fat lot of good they are to me there...

 

(Rudi cannot have won the 1929 British GP... I heard that he was busy that weekend testing Louis Meyer's Indianapolis Miller on a street course somewhere... I wonder if that will ever become a disputed 'fact' on the internet?)

Edited by 2F-001, 01 February 2022 - 18:24.

[Jim Thurman]

"Entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity" - Occam's Razor.

 

I'm not quite sure what this is all about    My quote of: "Versions of a story that are more tidy, compact, and camera-ready should generally be viewed as historically suspect." - Jackson Landers was used as a simple, cautionary take. It applies. It's called critical thinking, and seems in precious short supply these days, in all areas. Schools no longer seem to teach how to do proper research. But, I digress...

 

My original plan was to reply to Risil about how one goes about checking these sort of things, which is still a good idea, but things seem to have rather blown up overnight, in a quite unecessary manner to boot. Even if it all is rather entirely predictable.

 

I'm not sure why the overreaction and defensiveness. I never called out the YouTube poster by name, let alone engaged in any personal attack of him. I'm not remotely as draconian as Don or Michael  I do not type these things in red-faced rage, so blood pressure isn't an issue. I'm quite well aware of the paint stripping story, and I know Don and Michael are as well. I'm not remotely upset about any of this, so again 

 

All I did was mention some of many, many other examples of rumors gaining traction and taking on lives of their own and explain in a reply to Ross how they get started, reaffirming his own comments. I also had the temerity to suggest that someone check contemporary source material. How dare I!

 

I don't meet Don's lofty standards either, as I am not formally, or academically trained. Just an enthusiast, albeit one who knows how to research and apply critical thinking. And while I have a nice library, not exactly easily reachable, it isn't nearly as voluminous as speculated 

Edited by Jim Thurman, 01 February 2022 - 20:02.

[Nigel Beresford]

Jeez, please calm down guys. Nobody leave. Everyone who leaves takes some irreplaceable knowledge with them, amd then it’s death by a thousand cuts for this place.

[Michael Ferner]

(Rudi cannot have won the 1929 British GP... I heard that he was busy that weekend testing Louis Meyer's Indianapolis Miller on a street course somewhere... I wonder if that will ever become a disputed 'fact' on the internet?)

 

 

Psst... it was Leon Duray's!!

[cpbell]

Sorry for being rather OTT; I think, like many of us, the virus has rather exacerbated some old anxiety and self-esteem problems, so maybe my patience is thin at present.

 

Jim - my quote is, apparently, an earlier version of the more common version of the critical thinking axiom Occam's Razor, which says that the most parsimonious explanation for a phenomenon is usually the most accurate - your quote suggested that simple answers are not reliable, which I do agree with sometimes, but my personal preference is to work from a straightforward hypothesis and then, if evidence doesn't support it, to consider something more complex.  Either way, I'm fairly comfortable with critical thinking due to having had the privilege of spending a year in a research laboratory at my old Uni - I still have Impostor Syndrome regarding whether I was good enough to have done such a postgrad course, but it so happened that we had quite a few occasions in which critical thinking was tested!  Anyway, I valued your input and don't doubt that the Indycar chaps were THE experts at getting a car around a short oval at great velocity.  I always was sceptical regarding the supposed lap times, but had no real reason to dismiss the general sequence of events as presented due to not having any evidence against the idea; as we know, power outputs and lap times can be, and have been, exaggerated in the past (IIRC that Louis Stanley would reassure drivers that the latest engine had shown in increase of 10 or so bhp on the dyno at Bourne against all logic!)  I know you found no period reference to the test, but would such an event, taking place after journalists had left a track, have been reported in the pre-internet age?  Anyway, it's academic now, as Nigel has had first-hand testimony that it never took place, so we know for posterity and can regard the idea as one of those entertaining motorsport myths that might annoy some, but which, IMO add something to our interest in the same way that people can study Greek mythology without needing to disprove the existence of the figures it documents.

Edited by cpbell, 01 February 2022 - 22:16.

[dolomite]

No mention of any such photo shoot in this video. It shows the three MP4-6 race cars were still being finished off in the pit garage immediately before first practice at the Phoenix GP. 

 

Has anybody ever actually actually seen a Marlboro publicity photo of Mclaren and Penske cars together? I cannot find any.
 

The Road to Phoenix 1991 - Honda Marlboro Mclaren.

Edited by dolomite, 02 February 2022 - 07:51.

[BRG]

Rudi cannot have won the 1929 British GP... 

Well, no, it was cancelled that year.  

 

Unless it did actually run but nobody remembers it, or took any photographs or wrote any press reports of it.  I think we should be told the truth!  

[NewMrMe]

Well, no, it was cancelled that year.  

 

Unless it did actually run but nobody remembers it, or took any photographs or wrote any press reports of it.  I think we should be told the truth!  

 

I read somewhere that as the track was now available McLaren had a photoshoot there. There was even some talk they might have ran a few laps of Brooklands.

[kevins]

Hi, OP here again. I've not really added much to this as I feel everyone here has much more knowledge than me, but am an avid reader of here during my lunch. I'm almost sorry I started this now, it seems to have caused a lot of friction.

 

When I saw the video, I very much doubted that it was true, the main reason, as I said in the OP, is, IMO, the risk of life and limb to the drivers. I have no doubt the F1 people were in no doubt that oval racing was more than just turning left, and had great respect for it, and its dangers (and perhaps McLaren more than most teams given its not so past history, at the time). So that alone debunked it for me, that they would run hot laps for a jolly.

 

However a Penske/McLaren PR event seemed VERY plausible (in fact almost a no-brainer) to me so I figured I'd post it for discussion, expecting maybe 3 or 4 replies.

 

On a positive note, if someone cares to Google it after seeing the video, they will lean the truth.

 

PS sorry for my late reply, I was busy stripping the paint off my Mercedes

[Michael Ferner]

 

PS sorry for my late reply, I was busy stripping the paint off my Mercedes

 

Proper priorities...

[kevins]

Michael, just in case my parting joke was too subtle, I was referring to the myth of the Silver Arrows origin, an appropriate joke for this thread. I'll get my coat ....

[Bikr7549]

As a brief aside but related to this interesting topic of F1 vs Indy cars, I recalled having heard something back when I was a teenager about a challenge that Dan Gurney had made for a fastest lap around the Nuerburgring - Bobby Unser in his latest Eagle Indycar vs F1. But not having any period paperwork on hand to research or backup my recollection I did an internet search, and found what I needed, right here on TNF!

1972: Dan Gurney's challenge - TNF's Archive - The Autosport Forums


The challenge unfortunately never actually happened but this old string provides plenty of detail that is fun to read thru. I am not sure why Dan chose that track, but as he had raced on it himself in F1 not much before this challenge he certainly must have known what he was talking about.

[DCapps]

I just seen this video where it is claimed McLaren and Penske were at Phoenix International Raceway doing a photoshoot for Marlboro ahead of the '91 Phoenix GP, had a spare afternoon and let Berger and Senna have a proper run.

 

Any truth to this? I find it hard to believe they would risk their drivers at the start of the season, on an oval, pre SAFER days. As much as I'd like to believe it's true!!

 

 

This really went well, didn't it? 

[Jim Thurman]

cp, apologies for the delay in getting back to you. I was away almost all day yesterday, and too tired to form coherent sentences after the long drive. Also apologies for OT, but it isn't that far off.

 

First, my comments on the lack of critical thinking was a general observation, and not aimed at you. I think I'm more familiar with Schrodinger's Razor (or is that Occam's Cat?) 

 

Likewise, my comment that there are some folks who, as Michael put it, are such F1 supremacists and slag off anything that isn't F1. They are out there, and here. Sadly, there are also a few members here who slag off anything American. It's true ugliness and bias. Those are who I was referring to and calling out, not you, and not Aidan.

 

As you wrote, Nigel made it academic  I do believe even a PR event would have received at least some notice had this sort of event actually taken place. There's no way something like this would have escaped the U.S. motorsport press at the time, let alone the world motorsport press. That part alone doesn't pass the smell test.

 

I'm also reluctant to point out why I seem to dismiss so emphatically. It's because these same t**** referred to above seem to take any negatives and apply it to all Americans. Let's just say, I've found one has to be firm to the point of near militancy on these matters lest the other side keeps trying to force their way through the door while saying: "So, you're saying there's still a chance?" 

 

Ask Michael or Don about dealing with those sort of folks. Oh, the fun we've had! (not!, well, maybe not Michael, he enjoys it)   If it has seemed to harden us, well, you'd have had to walked the mile in our shoes to fully realize why that has happened.

[rl1856]

What most fail to realize about the episode, is that it was orchestrated by Donald Trump. 

 

In 1994, he considered a RE project in the Phoenix area and decided to put together a little stunt that would generate some publicity.  Sucker some limp wristed furr-in patsies to try to challenge a cherry picked team of red blooded Amur'can super men in their demonstrably superior machines around the Phoenix oval.    It didn't quite turn out as expected. But, Donald said it happened, so it happened right ?

[cpbell]

cp, apologies for the delay in getting back to you. I was away almost all day yesterday, and too tired to form coherent sentences after the long drive. Also apologies for OT, but it isn't that far off.

 

First, my comments on the lack of critical thinking was a general observation, and not aimed at you. I think I'm more familiar with Schrodinger's Razor (or is that Occam's Cat?) 

 

Likewise, my comment that there are some folks who, as Michael put it, are such F1 supremacists and slag off anything that isn't F1. They are out there, and here. Sadly, there are also a few members here who slag off anything American. It's true ugliness and bias. Those are who I was referring to and calling out, not you, and not Aidan.

 

As you wrote, Nigel made it academic  I do believe even a PR event would have received at least some notice had this sort of event actually taken place. There's no way something like this would have escaped the U.S. motorsport press at the time, let alone the world motorsport press. That part alone doesn't pass the smell test.

 

I'm also reluctant to point out why I seem to dismiss so emphatically. It's because these same t**** referred to above seem to take any negatives and apply it to all Americans. Let's just say, I've found one has to be firm to the point of near militancy on these matters lest the other side keeps trying to force their way through the door while saying: "So, you're saying there's still a chance?" 

 

Ask Michael or Don about dealing with those sort of folks. Oh, the fun we've had! (not!, well, maybe not Michael, he enjoys it)   If it has seemed to harden us, well, you'd have had to walked the mile in our shoes to fully realize why that has happened.

I'm always aware not to let my F1 bias enter my thoughts; as you say, there are some who seem to regard 1990s Indycar as being some redneck enterprise in which everyone was married to their sisters etc.    Different rule set, but very sophisticated aerodynamics and probably better in a crash than anything F1 produced until late in the decade.

[10kDA]

As a brief aside but related to this interesting topic of F1 vs Indy cars, I recalled having heard something back when I was a teenager about a challenge that Dan Gurney had made for a fastest lap around the Nuerburgring - Bobby Unser in his latest Eagle Indycar vs F1. But not having any period paperwork on hand to research or backup my recollection I did an internet search, and found what I needed, right here on TNF!

1972: Dan Gurney's challenge - TNF's Archive - The Autosport Forums


The challenge unfortunately never actually happened but this old string provides plenty of detail that is fun to read thru. I am not sure why Dan chose that track, but as he had raced on it himself in F1 not much before this challenge he certainly must have known what he was talking about.

I would guess the choice of the Nurburgring might have been because it was about as unlike the typical US paved oval track as possible. I suppose Dan could have suggested Monaco and been just as magnanimous giving that seeming advantage to any challengers. Also, in that time frame Uncle Bobby was at the peak of his powers and was certainly able to run with and beat just about anybody he lined up against. Bobby Unser could overcome many shortcomings of a car, should any arise, and Dan was well aware of that. If the event had happened I would have paid-per-view!

[Nigel Beresford]

I am not getting too far drawn into this but at the end of 1991 I left a podium achieving F1 team to join the leading Indycar team. A team which designed and manufactured everything of its own cars including the gearbox and even the wheels, conducted a highly sophisticated wind tunnel program of essentially one week in, one week out of a tunnel with a rolling road and motorised strut it had designed and manufactured, it’s own damper manufacturing company making bespoke dampers for us, a sister company making engines exclusively for our use, a world class engine assembly facility with an inertial dynamometer inside the team’s building and our own race track an hour up the road. Aside from Williams, McLaren, Ferrari and Benetton I don’t think any F1 team was at such a level.

[Doug Nye]

Thank you Nigel for that much-needed perspective.  One can appreciate from your description just how that "leading Indycar team" achieved such distinction.

 

DCN