194 replies to this topic

[PayasYouRace]

This is something I've been thinking about for a little while, and recent events have highlighted certain issues with use of the safety car in Formula One.

 

To lay out my thoughts, I'll begin with a quick recap of why we have the safety car in the first place. For the sake of argument, I'm going to ignore the unsuccessful experiment at the 1973 Canadian Grand Prix.

 

Prior to 1993, the only two options for safely dealing with an incident where:

• Local waved yellows. These would indicate that there was danger on track, as they do now. But they were employed for just about any incident short of blocking the track or a major multi-car incident.
• Stop the race (red flag). Employed for major incidents. The restart procedure at the time was a long drawn out affair and depending on what part of the race the incident occurred in, could result in the dreaded aggregate time turning the race into a time trial.

So clearly something was needed to keep the race going, especially with the increased importance of TV time slots on terrestrial TV. It made sense to adopt the safety car system from US racing.

 

However, things have changed a lot in the past three decades, so let's look at the current options.

• Local waved yellows. Still an option for minor incidents.
• The virtual safety car. An incredibily useful tool for neutralising a race without causing too much disruption. Used when marshals do not need to enter the track surface to clear and incident and thus don't require a gap in the traffic.
• The safety car. As we're familiar with, bunched everyone up so marshals car work on the track surface to clear debris or a stricken car.
• Red flag. Still used for serious incidents, often those that cause damage to barriers. No danger of aggregate time as restarts are just restarts. The restart procedure is currently much faster.

So here's my thinking. The virtual safety car now provides a very safe and fairer way to neutralise the race for most incident types. Meanwhile, the red flag procedure is slicker and less time is wasted than in the past. So why bother spending time behind the safety car? Just red flag the race if the incident is serious enough. We'd avoid the wasted laps spent behind the safety car and we'd avoid the problems of whether to let lapped cars unlap themselves or not. Having cars drone around at safety car speed doesn't add anything to the show. It just wastes time and, more importantly, racing laps. Might as well stop the race, have everyone line up on the grid, and go racing again once the incident is cleared. Maybe enforce a no work on the car rule like most other series employ?

 

I feel a lot of problems lately could have been avoided if the safety car just wasn't an option in F1. Perhaps just keep it for wet race starts and restarts to get the cars out there clearing water?

[ToniF1]

1. Virtual safety car, driver press the button that limits the car to max 80-100 km/h. Same like pit limiter.

 

2. After its all cleared resume racing, turn off the limiter when you pass the line before the start straight( drs detection line, it can even be the same line)

 

Or option two

 

2. Red flag the race if it will last longer than two or three laps. Cars enter pit.

 

3. Cars go out of the pits under the limiter and go out racing like in first example. Not a standing start, leader already lost all advantage, plus standing starts just add more crashes and safety cars after that.

 

No cars unlapping in any case.

[cbo]

Why would you need the safety car for Wet races?

Couldnt you just do some laps under the VSC or yellow flags to clear the water and then apply a rolling start from a given point on the track like you Do now when the SC leaves the track?

I like you idea, "racing" behind the SC is soooooo boring to watch.

[ARTGP]

I would only support more red flag usage if they would stop teams working on the cars and getting freebies during them.  Otherwise, it's just as disruptive and disadvantageous as a safety car. 

Edited by ARTGP, 30 January 2022 - 16:24.

[ARTGP]

1. Virtual safety car, driver press the button that limits the car to max 80-100 km/h. Same like pit limiter.

 

This is how it should work.  But right now they do a "delta time" which means the driver can make like gangbusters as long as he slows down before the timing loop. Failure of implementation imo.

Edited by ARTGP, 30 January 2022 - 16:37.

[Ali623]

Yeah I agree, safety car is pointless these days. If they have a 'better' VSC setup, like someone suggested give the cars a VSC limiter similar to a pit limiter, and you're sorted. Red flag for anything more severe.

[TomNokoe]

Red flags should only be used for multi-car, track blocking crashes and barrier repairs. It's too disruptive and ruins the flow of a race even more than a safety car. I'd go as far as to say the increasing use of red flags affects the integrity of the sport, as does the additional standing start it requires, by extension.

What irks me today is that F1 is far too conservative in dealing with incidents. There's too much regulation around clearing cars, debris and when marshalls can enter the track. I know there is a very big safety argument and I understand this, but why, for example, can't we trust 20 professional drivers to crawl past track workers and cranes at 50kph under VSC? The notion we are putting anyone at risk is ludicrous. Why go racing at all if this is the threshold of "unsafe"?

When Kubica had his monster crash in 2007, it took a mere 6 laps to resume racing. 6 laps! Today it would be a red flag and massive stoppage. What has changed?

There are too many stoppages in general. F1 needs to be "braver" in not calling VSC/SC for minor incidents, calling VSC in situations that would usually require SC, and wind back the recent proliferation of red flags that are increasingly being used and normalised as an entertainment tool. I have very little faith this will happen, however. It will continue to go in the opposite direction. F1 can never be seen to be taking backwards steps when it comes to the incontrovertible issue of "safety".

Edited by TomNokoe, 30 January 2022 - 17:11.

[Clatter]

1. Virtual safety car, driver press the button that limits the car to max 80-100 km/h. Same like pit limiter.

 

2. After its all cleared resume racing, turn off the limiter when you pass the line before the start straight( drs detection line, it can even be the same line)

 

Or option two

 

2. Red flag the race if it will last longer than two or three laps. Cars enter pit.

 

3. Cars go out of the pits under the limiter and go out racing like in first example. Not a standing start, leader already lost all advantage, plus standing starts just add more crashes and safety cars after that.

 

No cars unlapping in any case.

 

If they have to wait until a line before turning off the limiter then those ahead of a driver will get a massive advantage. With the field spread the first car over the line could well pass the last car before they have even reached the line.

[Ben1445]

How much of a commercial/sponsorship asset is the Safety Car In the grand scheme of things?

I’m terms of the physical method of neutralising races we’ve definitely got more diverse, modern/fairer ways to do things safely. It suppose it has value when you want to lead the train of cars along a specific route through or around an incident site. But that’s a relatively rare occurrence.

Edited by Ben1445, 30 January 2022 - 17:01.

[ExFlagMan]

Problem is the proliferation of street circuits with very little or no run-off and solid walls. Any car that spins and stops on circuit will probably need marshals and/or a crane to go track-side so will likely result in a red flag.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 30 January 2022 - 17:12.

[ToniF1]

If they have to wait until a line before turning off the limiter then those ahead of a driver will get a massive advantage. With the field spread the first car over the line could well pass the last car before they have even reached the line.

Yeah, you can change it to follow the leader until that line, after that they can floor it. Same like now when you follow the leader after the safety car goes back to pit until he floor it. No need for limiter in this case, cos track should been cleared.

[pdac]

I'd prefer exploring options to unbunch the field once they've been bunched up. Have a lap or two to allow the cars to space out back to how they were. There must be some way to achieve this. 

[ExFlagMan]

Red flags should only be used for multi-car, track blocking crashes and barrier repairs. It's too disruptive and ruins the flow of a race even more than a safety car. I'd go as far as to say the increasing use of red flags affects the integrity of the sport, as does the additional standing start it requires, by extension.

What irks me today is that F1 is far too conservative in dealing with incidents. There's too much regulation around clearing cars, debris and when marshalls can enter the track. I know there is a very big safety argument and I understand this, but why, for example, can't we trust 20 professional drivers to crawl past track workers and cranes at 50kph under VSC? The notion we are putting anyone at risk is ludicrous. Why go racing at all if this is the threshold of "unsafe"?

When Kubica had his monster crash in 2007, it took a mere 6 laps to resume racing. 6 laps! Today it would be a red flag and massive stoppage. What has changed?

There are too many stoppages in general. F1 needs to be "braver" in not calling VSC/SC for minor incidents, calling VSC in situations that would usually require SC, and wind back the recent proliferation of red flags that are increasingly being used and normalised as an entertainment tool. I have very little faith this will happen, however. It will continue to go in the opposite direction. F1 can never be seen to be taking backwards steps when it comes to the incontrovertible issue of "safety".

 

The ones making these 'braver' decisions are not those who are standing in the middle of a race track and having to look round for their own safety every time they hear a car coming round the blind bend at 'only' 50kph.

 

As for trusting professional racing drivers -  I recall a certain world champion going off under yellow flags and the head of the GPDA crashing under the SC a few years ago.  Even yesterday a driver managed to miss the pit exit lights changing.

 

I wonder what you would be saying when we get a Bianchi 2.0 situation.

[jjcale]

The current rules are fine ... just need to be applied in a consistent manner. 

 

Crashes etc are a part of racing ... we just have to live with the fact that these will tend to disrupt our enjoyment on some occasions.

 

There is sufficient safety built into the current rules as well ... once they re properly applied.

 

 

It doesnt matter what rules you have ... inconsistent application and treating F1 too much as a show instead of a sport is the bigger problem.... and we the fans are partly to blame for this ... with our demand for constant "action" - which causes the organisers to compromise on safety and sporting integrity .... sometimes what is in front of us is not going to be exciting ... but that is racing... we just have to be mature and accept it, when it happens.

 

.... and we also need to realise that sometimes the "solution" is worse than the "problem".... so we shouldnt be too quick to bash what we have and suggest radical changes as the "solution".      

[Radoye]

There's an important difference between VSC and SC - SC bunches up the field.

This might be unfair to those whose advantages were wiped out but at the same time sometimes the cleanup process requires marshals present on the racing surface itself, not just on the side of the road. It is then beneficial for everyone involved to have all cars bunched up in one place on the track giving the marshals a good sized time window to do their stuff. The alternatives would be to either don't do debris cleanup (safety hazard for drivers) or to go full red flag every time there's stuff to clean off the racing surface (which not only wipes out the differences between cars but also allows a free pitstop for repairs and is followed by a standing start - much more problematic than just SC)...

[PlatenGlass]

I'd prefer exploring options to unbunch the field once they've been bunched up. Have a lap or two to allow the cars to space out back to how they were. There must be some way to achieve this.

Yes, they can use VSC type deltas to put the gaps back to what they were before.

I think if they think it will be a short amount of time to fix everything, then it's more convenient to throw a safety than stop the race. But you don't want to lose too many racing laps.

But either way the original gaps should be restored. As I believe the OP has argued for previously.

[PayasYouRace]

There's an important difference between VSC and SC - SC bunches up the field.

This might be unfair to those whose advantages were wiped out but at the same time sometimes the cleanup process requires marshals present on the racing surface itself, not just on the side of the road. It is then beneficial for everyone involved to have all cars bunched up in one place on the track giving the marshals a good sized time window to do their stuff. The alternatives would be to either don't do debris cleanup (safety hazard for drivers) or to go full red flag every time there's stuff to clean off the racing surface (which not only wipes out the differences between cars but also allows a free pitstop for repairs and is followed by a standing start - much more problematic than just SC)...

 

That's getting at why I've been thinking the way I've set out in the OP. If you need to make that window to clear the track, why have the cars ticking laps away doing nothing, when they can just stop until the track is clear? You'd get more racing if the race was stopped. If F1 was like many other series, you'd not be allowed to touch the cars during a red flag period.

 

 

Yes, they can use VSC type deltas to put the gaps back to what they were before.

I think if they think it will be a short amount of time to fix everything, then it's more convenient to throw a safety than stop the race. But you don't want to lose too many racing laps.

But either way the original gaps should be restored. As I believe the OP has argued for previously.

 

Yes I have argued it in the past. It would take one lap, and you provide each driver with a delta that would take them across the S/F line next time with the restored gap to the car in front. Would wok equally well from a SC or a red flag restart.

[ARTGP]

Red flags should only be used for multi-car, track blocking crashes and barrier repairs. It's too disruptive and ruins the flow of a race even more than a safety car. I'd go as far as to say the increasing use of red flags affects the integrity of the sport, as does the additional standing start it requires, by extension.

What irks me today is that F1 is far too conservative in dealing with incidents. There's too much regulation around clearing cars, debris and when marshalls can enter the track. I know there is a very big safety argument and I understand this, but why, for example, can't we trust 20 professional drivers to crawl past track workers and cranes at 50kph under VSC? The notion we are putting anyone at risk is ludicrous. Why go racing at all if this is the threshold of "unsafe"?

 

Unlike the drivers, the marshalls don't have the privilege of a safety cell and drivers quite frankly can't be trusted. We've seen this over and over and over. Spinning under safety car. Spinning on formation laps. Erratic weaving to keep tire temperature. Ignoring yellows...

Edited by ARTGP, 30 January 2022 - 19:06.

[Ruusperi]

I wholeheartedly agree: the SC is redundant. Just have Code 60 like in WEC and/or give the leading car the role of the SC.

That way the race can be restarted as soon as the race directors gives a green sign. It eliminates the issue of needing to do a full lap behind a SC even though the incident has been cleared long ago.

[Sterzo]

There's real merit in this idea; it would be good to give it a try for a season. On a red flag, I'd like to see the field peel off into the pit lane and park in order. (No work allowed). Then restart one car at a time from the pit road exit, at the correct intervals - so you really do restart the same race.

[ensign14]

Ten years ago...
 

Do what the Dutch do, stick everyone's limiter on so that nobody's doing more than 40 or 50. Then the marshalls can clear everything with full knowledge as to who is where and when. If that's not possible, then stop the race.

[ANF]

What F1 needs is slow zones. Let's say there's an accident at Becketts where a car needs to be craned away and some debris needs to be swept near the edge of the track. Instead of deploying the SC or going full course VSC you could then have a 60 km/h slow zone from, say, Luffield to Chapel – and racing could continue on the rest of the circuit during the next four or five minutes.

The slow zone could also be used during a SC or VSC to protect the marshals:

• The current VSC delta reduces the speed by 40% (I think) so on a 300 km/h section of track the cars would still be doing 180 km/h. It obviously isn't safe for marshals to recover a car on the track when cars keep arriving at 180 km/h. A slow zone would bring the speed down to 60 km/h without having to deploy the SC and wait for the cars to bunch up to create a safe gap for the marshals.
• Under current SC rules, the same VSC delta is used – but only on the first SC lap. Once a driver has completed one full SC lap he is allowed to go (more or less) flat out to catch the SC train – and he only has to slow for the double yellow flags where the marshals are attending a stricken car. Again, a slow zone would bring the speed down to 60 km/h on that section of track and marshals wouldn't have to jump over the barrier when cars are approaching.

 

I believe slow zones would speed up the recovery, shorten SC periods – and often allow racing to continue on 60–90% of the track during the recovery.

(Red flags should always be avoided. I wouldn't like to see races with multiple delays of 30–45 minutes and standing restarts where drivers can gain or lose seven positions.)

[ExFlagMan]

 

Ten years ago...
 

 

a genius said

Do what the Dutch do, stick everyone's limiter on so that nobody's doing more than 40 or 50. Then the marshalls can clear everything with full knowledge as to who is where and when. If that's not possible, then stop the race.

 

Any idea how the marshals would know who is where and when?

[Izzyeviel]

If theres a red flag & over 75% of the race is done, thats it. thats the race over. No more of this restarting the race for 1-2 laps bullShark nonsense.

[ANF]

I know there is a very big safety argument and I understand this, but why, for example, can't we trust 20 professional drivers to crawl past track workers and cranes at 50kph under VSC?

The driver who slows down to 50 km/h in a 300-metre yellow flag zone will lose 8 seconds per lap to the driver who only slows down to 80. That's why you can't trust drivers (or teams) to slow down to a certain speed – you need an absolute speed limit.

[azza200]

Do what creventic do inthe 24hr series and do Code60's but close the pits and they can only pit if they have damage or a puncture. Is better then a safety car no one gains an advantage due to being on a limiter freezes the track positions and once the incident is cleared they can carry on straight away without the hassle of the unlapping procedure and finding P1 on track and its quicker too   

Edited by azza200, 30 January 2022 - 22:51.

[ensign14]

Any idea how the marshals would know who is where and when?

They must have done in the Netherlands.  And if that's still not safe because of the spread or whatever then stop the race.

[Anderis]

I don't think SC is redundant. F1 could theoretically go without it but would it be better? I'm not convinced.

 

Anything like VSC or slow zones is of limited use because if the marshalls have to move across the racing line, it can still lead to unpredictable situations and even if drivers are forced to drive something like 50kp/h in the danger zone, which is very slow for F1 cars (to not have engine and brakes overheat etc.) a collision at this speed would still be potentially dangerous for marshalls. SC bunches all the cars up so the marshalls have like 2-3 minutes of no cars near the incident which doesn't happen during VSC or slow zones.

The alternative or having more red flags doesn't sound like improvement. Not only does it take more time to get the race going again but a red flag in the middle of a pit stop window will mess up the running order much more than a SC, giving huge advantages and disadvantages to certain drivers based on their strategy, regardless if tyre change is allowed of forbidden.

[TheFish]

Whilst we rightly try to improve safety in the sport for the drivers, it seems crazy that there are suggestions of making things less safe for the marshals (who volunteer their time for free). It would be horrific for the sport if a driver hit a marshal. Likely death, likely horrific. We've had too many close calls recently, we need to be moving the goals more in terms of safety for the marshals.

 

https://twitter.com/...021877204471813

[CoolBreeze]

I feel the whole FIA is redundant. 

[PayasYouRace]

If theres a red flag & over 75% of the race is done, thats it. thats the race over. No more of this restarting the race for 1-2 laps bullShark nonsense.

Why? Why arbitrarily cut off the race distance when restart might be perfectly possible? Run the full race distance whenever possible.

[PayasYouRace]

I don't think SC is redundant. F1 could theoretically go without it but would it be better? I'm not convinced.

Anything like VSC or slow zones is of limited use because if the marshalls have to move across the racing line, it can still lead to unpredictable situations and even if drivers are forced to drive something like 50kp/h in the danger zone, which is very slow for F1 cars (to not have engine and brakes overheat etc.) a collision at this speed would still be potentially dangerous for marshalls. SC bunches all the cars up so the marshalls have like 2-3 minutes of no cars near the incident which doesn't happen during VSC or slow zones.
The alternative or having more red flags doesn't sound like improvement. Not only does it take more time to get the race going again but a red flag in the middle of a pit stop window will mess up the running order much more than a SC, giving huge advantages and disadvantages to certain drivers based on their strategy, regardless if tyre change is allowed of forbidden.

That’s why I see the red flag as preferable. Rather than giving the marshals windows of 2-3 minutes, they get all the time they need with no interruptions. Then the race resumes after a similar amount of time (because red flag restarts are a lot quicker nowadays) and you don’t waste laps running round at slow speed.

I don’t buy that a red flag would be more damaging to race strategy than a a SC. It would be about the same at worst. But then that’s the nature of neutralising a race for safety reasons. It’s not an argument one way or another.

[Beri]

The question should rather be: "Can the safetycar be made redundant?" 

Because as it stands, it is certainly not redundant. As long as there is still an issue with drivers not following up simple yellow and even blue flags, they prove themselves that there still is a need for a physical barrier/object/warning system in the case of a safety car situation.

 

But can it be made redundant? Oh yes, certainly. With all the technical capabilities in the world, this would certainly be possible. But make it a system like descibed above; add in a "pitlimiter system" instead of working with delta's.

[Bleu]

This is how it should work.  But right now they do a "delta time" which means the driver can make like gangbusters as long as he slows down before the timing loop. Failure of implementation imo.

 

With hard speed limiter which is the same for every section of the track it means driver who is in the slow section gets more advantage. So it would work equally to all drivers if it's used for full lap.

 

 

Using Circuit of the Americas as an example: First line is entire straight and the second one is section from the end of previous line with distances being equal. So with hard speed limit (I mean you can drive flat out through both these sections with limiter on) these should take an equal amount of time. Looking at Verstappen's pole lap he was about six seconds faster on the straight than he was on the section with lots of corners.

Edited by Bleu, 31 January 2022 - 09:14.

[pdac]

With hard speed limiter which is the same for every section of the track it means driver who is in the slow section gets more advantage.

 

It depends on what the speed limit is set to. But I agree, the use of a fixed speed limit is not entirely neutral - although it may be better than what we have now.

[KWSN - DSM]

All what is needed is yellow flags and red flag.

[Jovanotti]

I know I'm probably in an overwhelming minority with this, but I'm actually okay with the SC and all the unpredictability (and sometimes unfairness) it brings. As long as it's not being exploited by the race director to create artificial action, I don't mind really.

Edited by Jovanotti, 31 January 2022 - 10:51.

[ARTGP]

It won't help that AM and Merc are paying handsome sums to be the official safetycar of F1. If it's paid for, it's not going anywhere. 

Edited by ARTGP, 31 January 2022 - 10:53.

[ARTGP]

It depends on what the speed limit is set to. But I agree, the use of a fixed speed limit is not entirely neutral - although it may be better than what we have now.

 

The use of the speed limit isn't to concern about drivers being advantaged or disadvantaged. It's purely to prevent drivers from speeding with track workers out on track. 

[pdac]

I know I'm probably in an overwhelming minority with this, but I'm actually okay with the SC and all the unpredictability (and sometimes unfairness) it brings. As long as it's not being exploited by the race director to create artificial action, I don't mind really.

 

I'm not at all okay with the way it always takes away the advantage of the leader yet can often give an extra (big) advantage to the second place driver due to allowing the pits to be open for tyre changes. Until they disallow pit stops during the SC period, I'm all for getting rid of it.

[pdac]

The use of the speed limit isn't to concern about drivers being advantaged or disadvantaged. It's purely to prevent drivers from speeding with track workers out on track. 

 

As has been stated, track workers out on track need a predictable period when there will be no cars approaching. This is achieved by either compressing the pack (as the SC does) or removing the cars entirely from the track (i.e. red flag).

[Cliff]

I love safety cars. They can make boring races turn into classics in an instant. Sometimes it can be frustrating but other times really satisfactionary. I think all 3 mentioned tools are fine as they are. There just need to be clearer rules when to use which. 

[ARTGP]

As has been stated, track workers out on track need a predictable period when there will be no cars approaching. This is achieved by either compressing the pack (as the SC does) or removing the cars entirely from the track (i.e. red flag).

 

But the other point was that if an accident is severe enough to obstruct the track and require gaps in traffic for marshalls, then they might as well red flag it. Otherwise, if the incident is minor and/or located in the run off, then a speed limit slow zone would be sufficient (or a speed limited VSC, as opposed to a delta time). 

 

I can see all scenarios working to neutralize the track for marshalls. I don't really mind either, except if we are going to increase usage of red flags, then I don't think teams should be allowed to touch their cars during the red flag.

Edited by ARTGP, 31 January 2022 - 11:22.

[TheFish]

The pits need to be open during Safety Cars for safety reasons. Baku is the perfect example, because of where Stroll crashed, the pits were closed and everyone had to go to the end on very old tyres (or pit and lose too many places). This is likely what caused Max to crash. Had Stroll crashed somewhere else on the circuit everyone would have pitted and we likely wouldn't have had Max crash like that.

[pacificquay]

Should they reintroduce aggregate times in the event of a red flag?

 

Makes sense from a sporting integrity point of view…

[ensign14]

Should they reintroduce aggregate times in the event of a red flag?

 

Makes sense from a sporting integrity point of view…

100%.  The change in that rule was one of the worst ever perpetrated.  It made e.g. Azerbaijan a 2 hour qualifying session.  A genocide of sporting integrity.

 

And an outright insult to the intelligence.  "The spectators don't understand it."  Utter bollocks and the Useful Idiots entirely refused to call it out for the bullshit it was for fear of losing their precious paddock passes.  It's not as if there are no "10 seconds to be applied post-race" penalties knocking around.

[PayasYouRace]

Should they reintroduce aggregate times in the event of a red flag?

Makes sense from a sporting integrity point of view…

No, they should restart with the previous gaps. Keep the integrity of the race, and not turn it into a time trial.

Aggregate timing was never a good solution. Even a guy at the pit exit with a stopwatch could restart the race with the existing gaps maintained.

[absinthedude]

Should they reintroduce aggregate times in the event of a red flag?

 

Makes sense from a sporting integrity point of view…

 

I agree, but apparently the powers that be think we are all to feeble of mind to understand it. 

 

I think the SC still has a place, and part of the race director's role is to decide what is appropriate when there is any sort of hazard on or beside the track. Not so long ago, maybe 10-15 years, a stranded car would be left at the trackside with a single stationary yellow flag to remind/warn drivers. We don't do that now in case someone has an incident in the same spot and ploughs at high speed into a stationary car. Often a SC was seen as the quickest way to move one car and get the race going again. Today we could use the VSC for this.

 

In recent years, especially 2020 when there were fewer marshals around due to covid, we've seen more red flags and the red flag procedure speeded up. This gives the RD another choice, whereas in the distant past the restart procedure was so lengthy that the red flag could cause an hour's delay easily. I do wonder if part of the FIA probe into what happened in Abu-Dhabi will be looking into further simplifying the red flag procedure, where the interruption involves less than a certain number of cars they could say "No work on the cars....into the pits, get ready to restart. Drivers may go to the toilet or take on drink. Cars cannot". One thing allowing work on cars can do in the event of a big crash that takes out half the field, is to permit minor repairs to cars that are slightly damaged and get them back out into the race. A longer procedure would also be beneficial in case of injury to driver, official or spectators.

 

The SC still has a place. Though I think most agree that Masi might have been better to call a quick red flag last month....the problem is he's been sharply criticised for too many red flags. 

 

Can't please everyone. 

 

I'd say keep the option there, but also look at when VSC and a simplified red flag/restart can be used. I am all in favour of interrupted races being run on aggregate timing, but part of the reason for tine SC was that it was felt the fans found that too confusing. Eg Nigel Mansell taking Jean Alesi on the last lap of the 1994 Japanese GP...but due to him actually being several seconds behind on aggregate he didn't take Alesi's position in the running order...fun as it was to watch.

[Anderis]

That’s why I see the red flag as preferable. Rather than giving the marshals windows of 2-3 minutes, they get all the time they need with no interruptions.

 

But what if the window of 2-3 minutes is sufficient enough? You know, if you need more, you still CAN call for the red flag. But if it's not necessary, then it's good to have the option not to.
 

I don’t buy that a red flag would be more damaging to race strategy than a a SC. It would be about the same at worst. But then that’s the nature of neutralising a race for safety reasons. It’s not an argument one way or another.

It makes me really sad that people can't see how damaging a red flag can be in terms of race strategy and that can even be a point of disagreement for anyone who follows the sport closely. It's such a simple calculation.

When you have a SC, you have an option to pit or not to pit. If you pit, you lose maybe 60% as much relative to other cars as you would in a normal race. Those who have worn tyres pit, those who have fresh don't pit. After the restart, everyone is roughly on the same tyres and those who managed to make a pit stop during the SC period are in a slight advantage (they could've jumped maybe 1 or 2 places, depending on how close to the other cars they were).

If you have a red flag, you either allow the tyre change, and give those who would pit during the SC period for 60% as much cost as during the normal race,  a chance to now pit for 0 cost, or you forbid the tyre change, which is even worse as it absolutely screws up everyone who's on worn tyres relative to those who are on relatively fresh tyres, because the time gaps that were caused by people spending time in the pit lane to get new tyres are now erased and it's still like a free pit stop, but for those who made it shortly before the red flag and if you happened to be on old tyres, you're now in a situation like Hamilton in the last lap of Abu Dhabi, but instead of one Verstappen, you have 10 "Verstappens" behind you and more laps to go to lose places.

 

And why wouldn't it be an argument one way or another? If there are 2 options roughly equal in terms of safety, surely you would consider the sporting aspects to be the deciding factor rather than choosing at random?

 

[FortiFord]

There's an important difference between VSC and SC - SC bunches up the field.

This might be unfair to those whose advantages were wiped out but at the same time sometimes the cleanup process requires marshals present on the racing surface itself, not just on the side of the road. It is then beneficial for everyone involved to have all cars bunched up in one place on the track giving the marshals a good sized time window to do their stuff. The alternatives would be to either don't do debris cleanup (safety hazard for drivers) or to go full red flag every time there's stuff to clean off the racing surface (which not only wipes out the differences between cars but also allows a free pitstop for repairs and is followed by a standing start - much more problematic than just SC)...

 

The problem is that firstly it takes a while for the cars to get in a tightly bunched snake. The leader must catch up to the SC and drivers who have pitted will take a while to join the end of the snake. Marshals and track workers can't enter until this has happened. Then you have to wait until all track workers and cranes are cleared before the unlapping process can begin.