534 replies to this topic

[jpm2019]

That KMag guy is SERIOUSLY fast. 

[BoDarvelle]

[ARTGP]

LOL. Love to see it. 

[just me again]

https://twitter.com/...8RbMcT0pFmQBYWw Both have been summoned to the stewards for Driving unnecessarily slowly during qualifying

Edited by just me again, 21 May 2022 - 17:21.

[Emilvang]

Got off with a warning it seems: https://twitter.com/...073100935430146

[PistolPete]

Im sure they had a reason to drive slowly...

[Montie]

Mick way off Kevin though, let's say he missed FP3 so was at a disadvantage but still I expect much more.

To be honest missing FP3 shouldn’t have a major impact. All the drivers knows this track.

[BoDarvelle]

Mistakenly posted in other Haas thread. Comparison of MAG/BOT/RUS Q3 fast laps.

 

DRS fail possibly showing on back stretch.

 

[BoDarvelle]

“You always say it could have been better but this time I’m pretty sure!” joked Magnussen. “[The DRS] was working but only after like five clicks, and then you are already a couple of hundred metres down the straights, so there was maybe a tenth in it or something which have just put me right there with P6 and P7. So, who knows. It was a good day anyway so looking forward to tomorrow."

[BoDarvelle]

Apparently there was a hidden upgrade on the car. 

 

They reinforced the floor according to AMuS. Some stays under the bodywork like RB has I'm guessing.

[BoDarvelle]

Here is what was in the AMuS article;

 

Invisible upgrade in the Haas

Haas redeemed himself for the Miami mishaps. For the first time since the 2019 Brazilian GP, both US Ferraris made it into Q3. And that despite the fact that the US racing team in Barcelona was the only team that did without upgrades. Team boss Guenther Steiner was all the more pleased: "Where are the others who started with half-new cars? We didn't do more than they did with anything. That's called efficiency."

In fact, Haas had a small modification in his luggage, but it remained invisible. The underbodies of both cars were reinforced. And promptly the bouncing was completely gone. "We could go lower and lower with the ground clearance, and the cars got faster and faster. The engineers themselves could hardly believe it," Steiner said amused. Kevin Magnussen praised: "Sometimes a good setup is worth more than the biggest upgrade."

 

 

*The bouncing isn't completely gone as I could hear it in turn 9, but obviously much improved.

Edited by BoDarvelle, 22 May 2022 - 00:13.

[ferrarista]

Very good performance from Haas (basically still in launch spec) and Magnussen 👍🏼👍🏼

[milestone 11]

I wouldn´t stake my life on 4 m12 bolts. The stresses put through that rear end during a race, just doesn´t stack up to me.

[AlexS]

Why not? so far it has worked.

[milestone 11]

Why not? so far it has worked.

I´m not sure that it has. This is the third time a Haas has broken in half. There´s no sign of bolt remains or bits of gearbox attached. Why?

[BoDarvelle]

Ferrari hasn't split one in two.

 

Perhaps because they haven't stuffed one in the fence like Mick has.

 

*Haas is the same drivetrain as the Ferrari....

 

And, as has been pointed out before, they are designed to "break in two" as it helps reduce forces on the driver.

[PayasYouRace]

Four bolts like that look suitable enough for the back end of a racing car. As mentioned above, you want heaving components like that to break away from the survival cell in a heavy crash.

[loki]

I´m not sure that it has. This is the third time a Haas has broken in half. There´s no sign of bolt remains or bits of gearbox attached. Why?

The entire powertrain is a stressed member of the chassis.  That config is normal everywhere (including Indycar) and identical to all the other Ferrari engines.  As noted if you stuff it into the fence with that much force in that direction it’s going to break. 

[milestone 11]

The entire powertrain is a stressed member of the chassis.  That config is normal everywhere (including Indycar) and identical to all the other Ferrari engines.  As noted if you stuff it into the fence with that much force in that direction it’s going to break. 

Yes, I understand all that fully. That configuration has been de rigueur for many a year. What particularly concerns me with this incident is the lack of evidence of bolt remains and other parts associated with the mounting still attached, there is nothing. It looks almost as though the bolts have come out.

Edit.

In fact, the article in The Race supports that concern.

Edited by milestone 11, 05 June 2022 - 18:57.

[PayasYouRace]

Yes, I understand all that fully. That configuration has been de rigueur for many a year. What particularly concerns me with this incident is the lack of evidence of bolt remains and other parts associated with the mounting still attached, there is nothing. It looks almost as though the bolts have come out.

Edit.

In fact, the article in The Race supports that concern.

 

So your concern is that the failure mode was the threads stripping on the bolts rather than the bolts shearing? This is a problem, why?

[milestone 11]

So your concern is that the failure mode was the threads stripping on the bolts rather than the bolts shearing? This is a problem, why?

Well, I haven´t seen the other half, if you have please post that evidence.

Gary Anderson says this,

A closer look shows that the gearbox is still more or less intact and there are no engine casing parts still attached. This means that the fixing studs have either broken, or the retaining nuts have popped off with the load. Either way, it’s a little worrying not just for Haas, but also for Ferrari.

 

[PayasYouRace]

Well, I haven´t seen the other half, if you have please post that evidence.

Gary Anderson says this,

 

You're the one who needs to provide the evidence that it's not a suitable construction.

 

Meanwhile, the cars aren't displaying any concerning weakness on track and have broken apart as expected in heavy crashes.

[milestone 11]

You're the one who needs to provide the evidence that it's not a suitable construction.

 

Meanwhile, the cars aren't displaying any concerning weakness on track and have broken apart as expected in heavy crashes.

That´s not the case though, is it? See the video, it´s not solely my concern.  As an aside, what do you think would happen to that back end in a high speed incident?

[PayasYouRace]

That´s not the case though, is it? See the video, it´s not solely my concern.  As an aside, what do you think would happen to that back end in a high speed incident?

 

But you're the one bringing that concern to the thread, so you have to show it has some merit.

 

The back end will break away, as with any other car, reducing the energy of the driver safety cell and increasing survivability, while also ensuring that less mass has to be caught by the walls, barriers or catchfences, making this safer. You know, what's supposed to happen.

[milestone 11]

But you're the one bringing that concern to the thread, so you have to show it has some merit.

 

The back end will break away, as with any other car, reducing the energy of the driver safety cell and increasing survivability, while also ensuring that less mass has to be caught by the walls, barriers or catchfences, making this safer. You know, what's supposed to happen.

I´m showing it has merit by quoting The Race´s analysis. As I asked you, what do you think would happen to that back end in a high speed incident?

[PayasYouRace]

I´m showing it has merit by quoting The Race´s analysis. As I asked you, what do you think would happen to that back end in a high speed incident?

 

 

 

 

The back end will break away, as with any other car, reducing the energy of the driver safety cell and increasing survivability, while also ensuring that less mass has to be caught by the walls, barriers or catchfences, making this safer. You know, what's supposed to happen.

[milestone 11]

 

I´m asking you where you think the back end will go. Do you not believe that to be a hazard in its own right, after all, wheels are tethered.

[PayasYouRace]

I´m asking you where you think the back end will go. Do you not believe that to be a hazard in its own right, after all, wheels are tethered.

 

Less of a hazard than the whole car, obviously.

[milestone 11]

Amusing.

[PayasYouRace]

Amusing.

 

Well if I can't get through to you at least you can have a giggle.

[milestone 11]

Well if I can't get through to you at least you can have a giggle.

Entirely mutual, I assure you.

[PayasYouRace]

Entirely mutual, I assure you.

Nope. I’m not amused by your inability to back up your argument.

[milestone 11]

Watch the video. All will become crystal clear.

[loki]

Yes, I understand all that fully. That configuration has been de rigueur for many a year. What particularly concerns me with this incident is the lack of evidence of bolt remains and other parts associated with the mounting still attached, there is nothing. It looks almost as though the bolts have come out.

Edit.

In fact, the article in The Race supports that concern.

 

The rules call for using studs.  A stud for that high a load is likely to have a shoulder (midway between the threads) rather than all thread.  I bet dollars to doughnuts the engine manufacturers make their own.  It's likely the bolt through part is in the rear subframe.  That's typically how a longitudinal gearbox is mounted to a block for other types of engines.  The threads (or stud bases) are in the block and the studs fill the mounting hole bore of the transmission.   The idea is the same if it's a bolted mating.

 

From an engineering perspective it's not likely those would back out all at once let alone at the exact same time.  In fact once it was even moderately under the torque spec the drive train would bind.  Most likely explanation without more substantial data is the kid is whacking the car so hard and in a particular way it's just breaking.

 

Trying to evaluate it from pics, let alone a single pic is foolhardy for Anderson (and us as well).  You'd need far more data than a picture.  At the very least you'd need to see the other side to see if portions of the studs were still attached.  Saying because he hit the wall in Jedda and it didn't break matters not.  What matters are the forces and manner of contact.  You can't see those forces with your eyes.  You see the result.

[milestone 11]

The rules call for using studs.  A stud for that high a load is likely to have a shoulder (midway between the threads) rather than all thread.  I bet dollars to doughnuts the engine manufacturers make their own.  It's likely the bolt through part is in the rear subframe.  That's typically how a longitudinal gearbox is mounted to a block for other types of engines.  The threads (or stud bases) are in the block and the studs fill the mounting hole bore of the transmission.   The idea is the same if it's a bolted mating.

 

From an engineering perspective it's not likely those would back out all at once let alone at the exact same time.  In fact once it was even moderately under the torque spec the drive train would bind.  Most likely explanation without more substantial data is the kid is whacking the car so hard and in a particular way it's just breaking.

 

Trying to evaluate it from pics, let alone a single pic is foolhardy for Anderson (and us as well).  You'd need far more data than a picture.  At the very least you'd need to see the other side to see if portions of the studs were still attached.  Saying because he hit the wall in Jedda and it didn't break matters not.  What matters are the forces and manner of contact.  You can't see those forces with your eyes.  You see the result.

Thanks, Loki. There is a view of the front section of the car in the video. Not fully conclusive by any means, but the top left looks perfectly clean with just the hole visible, top right appears to have broken off, and neither of the bottom two are visible. I maintain my belief that there is something inherently wrong with that Haas rear end. I consider the rear end to be analogous to a motorcycle. I´ve seen, too many times, what happens to errant motorcycles.

Edited by milestone 11, 06 June 2022 - 10:56.