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Andretti Global lodges F1 entry; FOM rejects it [updated]


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#6001 Nathan

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 01:21

"Liberty would not be 'denying their shareholders' anything! The absolute size of the pot is already fixed by the Concorde Agreement."

 

The Concorde Agreement limits the amount of revenue FOM can collect?  I doubt that.  I do imagine it dictates how the pot - whatever size it is - is distributed -  and all evidence points to it being percentage based.  No team boss ever complained bout team income being capped at a particular number.  FOM is a public traded company so we can see it takes a little more than it gives all the teams.  Whatever money Andretti's presence in F1 created for FOM a little more than half of that goes to Liberty's top line, and as you point out, adding Andretti wouldn't do bup-kiss to FOMs operating costs, so you could assume it really would go to their bottom line. 

 

If FOM thought 'boy, having talked to corporate America, USGP, and ESPN having Andretti could boost our revenues 10%...' then they would tell the teams 'tough nuggets' and then turn to their shareholders and say "earnings per share +10%!!  :clap: "  Rather, I think FOM discovered the upside is far from being there and the reality is Andretti presents more financial risk to some team than brings benefits to the whole.  And its not too hard to come to that conclusion.

I've been frank on this, I don't see Andretti as a qualified comer.  I get the name is there, but the company as a racing team underperforms its size. How the f*** can't Colton Herta qualify for a super license? Honestly! It's hard to ignore McLaren came into their backyard and knocked them down a peg.   I'm not sure how regular Indycar followers can say Andretti are in the same league as Penske, so if they aren't even at the pinnacle of Indycar why should they be at the pinnacle of circuit racing?  And yes, that can go for other current F1 teams, but the times changed, Michael missed 2015.  

 



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#6002 loki

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 02:29

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#6003 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 06:51

 

I've been frank on this, I don't see Andretti as a qualified comer.  I get the name is there, but the company as a racing team underperforms its size. How the f*** can't Colton Herta qualify for a super license? Honestly! It's hard to ignore McLaren came into their backyard and knocked them down a peg.   I'm not sure how regular Indycar followers can say Andretti are in the same league as Penske, so if they aren't even at the pinnacle of Indycar why should they be at the pinnacle of circuit racing?  And yes, that can go for other current F1 teams, but the times changed, Michael missed 2015.  
 

Why do Andretti need to be at the top of Indycar right now to prove themselves worthy of an F1 slot? Many far less qualified teams have entered F1 in the past and not embarrassed themselves. Why this obsession with Colton Herta? How about the fact that they’re the reigning drivers’ champions in Formula E, which is an actual FIA world championship? Does that count for nothing? It apparently does for the FIA, who seem happy to accept them.

 

Why the continued moving of goalposts to keep them out, when they’re proven to be one of the top racing organisations in the world?



#6004 Stephane

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 07:15

Otoh, they won Formula e wdc.

Ahead of... Penske (yeah, i know, bot this one)

#6005 New Britain

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 09:09

"Liberty would not be 'denying their shareholders' anything! The absolute size of the pot is already fixed by the Concorde Agreement."

 

The Concorde Agreement limits the amount of revenue FOM can collect?  I doubt that.  I do imagine it dictates how the pot - whatever size it is - is distributed -  and all evidence points to it being percentage based.  No team boss ever complained bout team income being capped at a particular number.  FOM is a public traded company so we can see it takes a little more than it gives all the teams.  Whatever money Andretti's presence in F1 created for FOM a little more than half of that goes to Liberty's top line, and as you point out, adding Andretti wouldn't do bup-kiss to FOMs operating costs, so you could assume it really would go to their bottom line. 

 

If FOM thought 'boy, having talked to corporate America, USGP, and ESPN having Andretti could boost our revenues 10%...' then they would tell the teams 'tough nuggets' and then turn to their shareholders and say "earnings per share +10%!!  :clap: "  Rather, I think FOM discovered the upside is far from being there and the reality is Andretti presents more financial risk to some team than brings benefits to the whole.  And its not too hard to come to that conclusion.

I've been frank on this, I don't see Andretti as a qualified comer.  I get the name is there, but the company as a racing team underperforms its size. How the f*** can't Colton Herta qualify for a super license? Honestly! It's hard to ignore McLaren came into their backyard and knocked them down a peg.   I'm not sure how regular Indycar followers can say Andretti are in the same league as Penske, so if they aren't even at the pinnacle of Indycar why should they be at the pinnacle of circuit racing?  And yes, that can go for other current F1 teams, but the times changed, Michael missed 2015.  

 

"Liberty would not be 'denying their shareholders' anything! The absolute size of the pot is already fixed by the Concorde Agreement." 

The absolute size of the pot [which is a fixed percentage of FOM's revenue in any given year] is already fixed by the Concorde Agreement. I did not include that qualifying phrase because it has already been explained several times in this thread alone. I thought it was obvious that admitting Andretti, or another three teams, would not reduce FOM's bottom line. The size of the pot is not affected by the number of teams eligible for it.

 

Undoubtedly Liberty concluded that it would be in their own financial interests to reject Andretti, because Liberty need the cooperation of the teams and want to keep them happy. That does not mean that the teams are legally and ethically entitled to everything that they might want. Yes, an Andretti eleventh team would add risk, and might reduce the expected return, to the extant ten teams, but that is no different from any competition, whether it be the Olympics, the Soapbox Derby, or the school raffle.

 

If the FIA had rejected Andretti's application, we might be able to debate whether the team are truly qualified to compete. But the FIA, who are the ones formally empowered to determine whether an applicant is qualified and are the only ones who should be making that determination, approved Andretti. It's merely because of the bad drafting of the Concorde Agreement that Liberty have veto power over who is eligible for prize money, which is tantamount to having veto power over who is qualified to compete.

 

After a lengthy process in which other applicants were rejected, the FIA have determined that Andretti are qualified, and that should have been the end of it. It's Liberty's job to hand out the prize money; it should not be their job to decide who may compete for it.



#6006 iSpeedFreak

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 09:58

FWIW., I think this would be cool to see.

 

 

I don't think any sports league wants their teams losing money - regardless if that's a natural, normal course of business, or if they are owned by people that can afford it.  From the outside it raises questions, doesn't look good and in general is negative news.   I get for many fans culling the herd is part of the sport and promotes top competition.

 

Adding Andretti is unlikely to drive FOM revenues so much as to cover what they will get back in prize money.  This means most teams - especially those at the back - will receive less.  We can see via public records Williams operates at a legitimate loss, not one created with clever accounting.  I think we can assume Haas is likely in the same boat, as is Sauber as they operate in a more expensive jurisdiction.  Again, to the fans they probably shrug - these are billionaires and such is competitive life -  but I doubt FOM/Liberty has the same feeling, corporate sponsors may not have the same feeling, it probably doesn't help when negotiating TV and hosting fees etc.. It's almost unquestionable adding an 11th team will create a decline in revenues for teams already seeing operating deficits.  I don't get why fans expect teams to shoot themselves in the foot, or FOM to put the screws to existing teams.  Well I do, fans are themselves selfish and only interested in what they think is best for them (normal), and fans have dreams Andretti is going to move the needle in America long-term, despite FOM having more information and lines of communication in that regard.

 

 

I'm sorry but as an FCCA Accountant by trade I do not agree. If those teams are operating at a loss, then the fault lies with the operational management - and certainly not with FOM/Liberty/Andretti. Yes sure by their constructors finishing position they receive less prize money and by accepting Andretti the potential loss in revenue is more and therefore increasing the operating losses, however there are many factors that also point the blame solely at the operations.

 

If these teams are operating close to the budget cap which we all think they do then they certainly should be achieving a lot more with their revenue expenditure. Why are they paying significantly high salaries for mediocre performances would be my first question. Why is it that after spending £x million amount of money on the car development have we only achieved 9th Place? In case of WIlliams, yes you're right CAPEX spend is something that is not an operating expenses, however it still negatively impacts the cash flow of the business. A factory upgrade in line with the times would've cost way less back when it was suppose to be done. With today's inflationary prices, of course Williams will have to spend more money that it should in trying to bring their facilities to the modern standard, especially if they have been very sub par for a best part of 10+ Years as James Vowels put it. Clearly, instead of actually correcting your own operating management and structure to make it efficient and profitable, they are all blaming Andretti's potential entry as a reason that they will all go out of business. 

 

I am sorry but that is how the real world works. Competition improves the standard of the finished product, whether it is sports or any other industry. By accepting Andretti, these "lossy" teams have a choice from 2 things , 1) buck up and improve or 2) be relegated to permanent mediocrity and eventual demise. But denying them entry is not the correct thing to do.

 

Nokia once a giant in the mobile industry failed to accept/adapt new technology and was swept away into non existence by Apple & Co. Same applies for F1 Teams. You either make yourself efficient in the budget cap and improve or die. Williams certainly isn't the same Williams as it was and if it were to disappear off the F1 grid, then it certainty has no one else to blame than themselves. Same applies to the other teams. However, that does not mean you use that to deny entry to other potential suitors just because you're at risk to get displaced by them. That in its very nature is self destructive and very complacent.


Edited by iSpeedFreak, 13 March 2024 - 10:14.


#6007 Nathan

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 13:30

I don't disagree with you, but I also think professional leagues/series whatever you want to call it, don't want the realities of 'real world' economics, they just want a rosy picture painted.  When the news starts talking about break away series and bankrupt teams they can't just shrug back at TV networks, corporate sponsors and say "hey man, real world".  It's a sports league, it relies on looking healthy to the outside - right or wrong - they have the ability to 'self-cultivate' it, and they aren't going to bring in 1 more team if it hurts 3 others, or cost all 10 out of pocket, like it or not, real world realities or not. It's not the general market place.



#6008 Sterzo

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 13:58

If I were Andretti (I'm not, by the way), I wouldn't sue anyone either. But what I would have done (which he's chosen not to) is:

 

1. Ask the FIA if it's valid for Liberty to decide the size of the field, rather than organising their finances around the FIA's decision.

2. Complain to the regulatory authorities in the US and EU about being excluded from a market by cartel / monopolistic practices.

3. Ask the EU to check their ruling on separation of sporting and commercial interests is operating as intended.



#6009 Chillimeister

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 14:45

I don't have any emotional attachment to Andretti as some posters seem to, these days Andretti for me seems to be more about Michael than Mario (for whom I would have far greater respect). However to comment on Sterzo's post, (1) isn't it the case that the maximum size of the grid is set in the Concorde agreement, which is the commercial agreement between the CRH (ie Liberty) and the teams? So not something within the FIA's responsibilities therefore, all the FIA can do is say that they approve Andretti as a competent prospective F1 entrant, which they have done. (2) As posted a while back, there is a big difference between open marketplaces serving all consumers and sporting leagues limited in size by their own ruleset serving a narrow subset of all consumers. Other posters have suggested that those competition authorities wouldn't have a great deal of interest in getting involved, which seems about right to me. Also I reckon if Andretti thought that the anti-competition argument had legs they would already have used it. (3) I would say that the present situation between Andretti and the FIA & Liberty is proof positive that the sporting and commercial aspects of F1 are indeed fully separated.

 

Having said all the above, I personally would like to see Andretti on the grid. I do understand though that the F1 teams (and presumably Liberty also) might think that there is more financial downside than upside for them if Andretti were to join in the Corcorde agreement, hence their opposition. Unfortunately I don't think that competing without a commercial agreement in place would have any attraction for Andretti's financial backers.



#6010 pdac

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 16:04

I thought the signatories of the Concorde Agreement included the FIA. I may be wrong.



#6011 GlenWatkins

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 16:14

Andretti need to build a car and set competitive times on an F1 track. If he can show the car is as fast as Haas or Williams, it would void large part of FOM's denial of an agreement.

#6012 Sterzo

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 16:45

(1) isn't it the case that the maximum size of the grid is set in the Concorde agreement, which is the commercial agreement between the CRH (ie Liberty) and the teams? So not something within the FIA's responsibilities therefore, all the FIA can do is say that they approve Andretti as a competent prospective F1 entrant, which they have done.

It's certainly muddled. The current Concorde Agreement specifies a maximum of 12 teams, the FIA sporting rules specify 26 cars, the FIA (as pdac points out) is a signatory to the Concorde agreement, the FIA rules specify they have sole authority over approving entrants...

 

 

(2) As posted a while back, there is a big difference between open marketplaces serving all consumers and sporting leagues limited in size by their own ruleset serving a narrow subset of all consumers. Other posters have suggested that those competition authorities wouldn't have a great deal of interest in getting involved, which seems about right to me.

 

There is indeed a difference, but (also as posted earlier in the thread) the US, EU and (for what it's worth) UK competition and market authorites do have a history of ruling on matters in sport. All three have  referred to (a) sports organisations needing to follow competion law and (b) an understanding that sporting considerations might give rise to them accepting compromises in applying the law. The point here being that the blocking of a market entrant is not being made on sporting grounds (i.e. by the FIA) but on commercial grounds (by FOM).
 

Putting it another way, the UK's Football League Division 1 has a fixed number of places. It would be impractical to run a sporting championship, with each team playing every other one, with unlimited participants. So there's a sporting reason for the closed market. There's a limit set in F1 too: it's 26 cars. They could defend allowing only 26.

 

As for the authorities' interest, it tends to be nothing unless somebody wakes them up by complaining.


Edited by Sterzo, 13 March 2024 - 16:47.


#6013 Nathan

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 18:19

Andretti's near complete silence on the matter since has me thinking they have things brewing in their lawyers offices.



#6014 GlenWatkins

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 18:49

Why do Andretti need to be at the top of Indycar right now to prove themselves worthy of an F1 slot? Many far less qualified teams have entered F1 in the past and not embarrassed themselves. Why this obsession with Colton Herta? How about the fact that they’re the reigning drivers’ champions in Formula E, which is an actual FIA world championship? Does that count for nothing? It apparently does for the FIA, who seem happy to accept them.

Why the continued moving of goalposts to keep them out, when they’re proven to be one of the top racing organisations in the world?


IMO, the answer is obvious.

#6015 Bikr7549

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 19:04

Andretti need to build a car and set competitive times on an F1 track. If he can show the car is as fast as Haas or Williams, it would void large part of FOM's denial of an agreement.

This would be an interesting achievement, tho a huge risk financially if they are still not allowed in the door. 

 

Since teams are not allowed to test their cars in their own private test sessions (my knowledge is a bit fuzzy on this), would Andretti be exempt from this requirement since they are not yet an entered team? They would certainly need to run it somewhere first instead of the first time being when they show up at a random GP. Another thing they will need to do before that is to get the current tires for the car, another possible hurdle. And despite all the talk about Herta, they need a current and well qualified driver to do the testing.


Edited by Bikr7549, 13 March 2024 - 19:07.


#6016 eibyyz

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 20:04

Andretti's near complete silence on the matter since has me thinking they have things brewing in their lawyers offices.

 

I think someone with a Warshington DC business address is having dinners, plural, with John Malone.



#6017 Grippy

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 20:06

UK football isn't a completely closed shop as each year the top scoring teams in lower leagues move up a level and the lowest scoring drop down a league, so Plymouth Argyle for instance have competed at various times in all divisions except the top. (and there is something like 11 layers in total with a theoretical path to the top) The motorsport equivilent would be the top scoring F2 team replacing the lowest scoring F1 team, ditto for F2<>F3



#6018 Nathan

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 20:17

Why do Andretti need to be at the top of Indycar right now to prove themselves worthy of an F1 slot?

Why this obsession with Colton Herta?

How about the fact that they’re the reigning drivers’ champions in Formula E, which is an actual FIA world championship? Does that count for nothing?

Why the continued moving of goalposts to keep them out, when they’re proven to be one of the top racing organisations in the world?

 

Because that's the standard we hold drivers to.

Why hasn't he qualified for a Super License?  Maybe someone can just point out to me I have over rated his ability.
Yes, that's something positive, well done by them.
Personally, I've been consistent since day 1 that while one of the largest racing teams they consistently don't perform like it.
 



#6019 Anderis

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 20:19

Andretti need to build a car and set competitive times on an F1 track. If he can show the car is as fast as Haas or Williams, it would void large part of FOM's denial of an agreement.

This would be meaningless.

Lap times can vary hugely based on track conditions, temperature, rubber levels etc. If they're not on the track at the same time, there's no valid comparison. Moreover, they could still run (or be accused of running) a car that's not in accordance with the rules (i.e. underweight). It would prove nothing.



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#6020 EvilPhil II

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 22:19

Rumors circulating that GM and Andretti have bought Alpine. Engines and all. 



#6021 eibyyz

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 00:10

Rumors circulating that GM and Andretti have bought Alpine. Engines and all. 

 

Pretty to think so, but how could GM excise Alpine from the other parts of Renault Group this quickly, if at all?



#6022 F1 Mike

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 00:11

Rumors circulating that GM and Andretti have bought Alpine. Engines and all.


Funnily enough, if they do that they're consigning themselves to the back of the grid and won't be a credible contender the way things are going!!!

#6023 loki

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 00:19

Funnily enough, if they do that they're consigning themselves to the back of the grid and won't be a credible contender the way things are going!!!

Assuming they keep operating it like Renault has operated.  My guess is if they did that they’d strip it for the IP; UK race ops, race crew and equipment and entry.  Easy enough to move manufacturing to the US.  



#6024 Clatter

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 00:29

Rumors circulating that GM and Andretti have bought Alpine. Engines and all.


Would be disappointing if true. I want to see new teams joining the grid, not just the name changing on one of the existing teams.

#6025 Nathan

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 00:35

Pretty to think so, but how could GM excise Alpine from the other parts of Renault Group this quickly, if at all?

 

I assume the rumour is buying the F1 team, not the car company?



#6026 loki

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 00:39

Pretty to think so, but how could GM excise Alpine from the other parts of Renault Group this quickly, if at all?

 

The race part is easy.  Re-livery and new crew gear.  Viry is more complex but sub contract while transitioning then pull the bandage off.  Manufacturing would be the most time consuming.  You could sub contract or do a measured switchover in the meantime.  My guess is it would not remain in France.



#6027 404KF2

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 00:57

I'd buy an Alpine Suburban Tahoe!  :rotfl:



#6028 kumo7

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 01:04

Rumors circulating that GM and Andretti have bought Alpine. Engines and all.

If Andretti can do this, that is a smart move. This team had been placed under a huge financial pressure too long. Pitty that many good people had left the outfit. But I could imagine there are still bunch of skilled and well informed personnel who could operate at the level they are required to. I think this pu+chassis purchase makes a lot of sense.
Wonder if the famous suspension departments are operational.
The boss will be gone.
Shame Renault dropped the ball, the team is a legend, perhaps only in my book.
Drivers pair is not a bad one for the American management I think. It will tidy up some behaviors.

But I am still not convinced about Renault selling the PU dep in Viry Chattilon.

Edited by kumo7, 14 March 2024 - 01:09.


#6029 loki

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 01:43

I assume the rumour is buying the F1 team, not the car company?

That would be the stunner.



#6030 William Hunt

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 01:58

Rumors circulating that GM and Andretti have bought Alpine. Engines and all. 

 

That would be extremely bad news, it would dash any hopes of an 11th time the next few years



#6031 kumo7

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 02:24

That would be extremely bad news, it would dash any hopes of an 11th time the next few years

 

If Renault wants to come back, which is very well possible, there isn't much reason not to say yes, then...



#6032 BarryinIN

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 05:20

Rumors circulating that GM and Andretti have bought Alpine. Engines and all.


Where are these rumors?

#6033 Stephane

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 07:20

I am not sure if is even possible to separate Renault f1 engines from the Renault company.

I know it wasn't possible in the past.

#6034 loki

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 07:48

Where are these rumors?

 Here’s a link …

 

https://forums.autos...ted/?p=10536638



#6035 kumo7

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 08:36

Here’s a link …

https://forums.autos...ted/?p=10536638


!!!

#6036 AustinF1

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 14:36

Rumors circulating that GM and Andretti have bought Alpine. Engines and all. 

This is what I've been wondering about. There do seem to be some signs that Renault is winding things down over there. I'd be happy for Andretti getting in, but I hate the idea of F1 being limited to 10 teams going forward. Unreal.


Edited by AustinF1, 14 March 2024 - 15:28.


#6037 Francesc

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 15:12

As soon as they buy Alpine, expect Domenicali to say they welcome an iconic name like Andretti to F1. Such an hypocrite.

#6038 Nathan

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 15:35

:lol:  100%

"Alpine will only make electric cars from 2026 onwards, and we've now found out that two of them will be SUVs."

 

Makes you wonder how F1 fits into this plan. Making the defending FE champs part of a swap seems tempting on the outside.


Edited by Nathan, 14 March 2024 - 15:38.


#6039 BarryinIN

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 20:05

Here’s a link …

https://forums.autos...ted/?p=10536638



That’s what I thought.

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#6040 William Hunt

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Posted 15 March 2024 - 14:00

So there is no source