14 replies to this topic

[Michael Ferner]

Mille Miglia results usually show two drivers, as in co-drivers during a long-distance sports car race, but wasn't the second one rather a "riding mechanic"? Surely, DSJ (for example) never intended to switch places with SCM, even for a minute or so, but what about all the others? Did it ever happen? Was it even allowed by the regs? Did it happen anyway? Insight or opinions, please.

[Doug Nye]

As far as I know driver changing was permitted though I am not sure this was the case in every edition of the race.  For instance in 1936 'Toulo' de Graffenried tackled the MM with his school chum John Du Puy and both drove, as the Baron used to relate - with energetic hand gestures and wide-open staring eyes to emphasise some scary memories.  In the smaller classes with 1100s, 750s and 500s the race would take so long that it really was more than one driver could handle solo - 15-22 hours quite common for the lower-classified finishers.

 

The professionals in the faster cars very early on inclined towards battling through but - and it's a big but - if young Giulio Ramponi did not drive a stint in the winning Alfa 6C-1500 in 1928 then Campari really worked terribly hard for his victory - 19hrs 14mins behind the wheel - and longer for all his pursuers.  Yet Nuvolari who finished down in 13th place in a Bugatti T43 shared with his mechanic friend Amedeo Bignami would have been at the wheel for 21hrs 13mins if Bignami did not spell for him at some time.

 

It's not impossible - but if they drove unrelieved (in the driving sense) one can only admire them even more.  

 

In comparison - isn't modern man feeble...  

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 21 February 2022 - 21:20.

[Michael Ferner]

Thanks, Doug, but let's not be unduly sentimental. After all, nobody considered it necessary to have two-man crews contest the Bol d'Or 24-hour races for the first 25 editions, not until 1954 they weren't even allowed! I don't really see the Italians shrinking away from doing "a mere thousand miles" alone if asked to, when the French didn't flinch going twice around the clock. But, yes, try telling that to the young people today, and they won't believe you... when even the idea of having to race for one single lap can send a multiple champion into a state of shock for months on end...

[Doug Nye]

Yeah but - consider the circumstances at the start of that "single lap"...last year's one, I mean.  

 

DCN

[Michael Ferner]

Oh, I'd rather consider the circumstances starting and finishing a single lap in Brescia

[Vitesse2]

Taking a year at random - 1932 - I can believe Bignami was just along for the ride alongside the winner Borzacchini, but I'm sure that Trossi and Brivio (second) would have both taken the wheel. Canavesi - listed as Lurani's co-driver - was also in the entry list for Le Mans that year, with Minoia, although whether he drove at La Sarthe is moot, given that the car retired after 22 laps.

 

In 1938 I'd guess that Fane was the only member of the BMW team who drove all 1000 miles.

 

So I think the answer is - it depends. Most of the scurrying hordes of small Italian sports cars would surely have used both drivers - the final finisher in 1938 (a Fiat 500) was on the road for just over 23 hours.

[Michael Ferner]

Thanks, Richard. On the other hand, as the de Graffenried anecdote so nicely illustrates, swopping places during a thousand-mile run through Tuscany is hardly the same as taking a break from driving in a 24-hour circuit race. I was thinking that it didn't make much sense for a driver to take a "rest" when that meant sitting next to the relief driver and "co-driving" in the worst meaning of the word! I can't imagine that it does much to restore your spirits. As for your examples, taking an experienced driver along as riding mechanic makes sense, even if you don't intend to swop places, but the Trossi/Brivio pairing is odd - perhaps the vastly more experienced Brivio was accompanying his friend (and boss!) in a coaching role? However, unless there is more anecdotal or even solid evidence to the contrary, I'm going to take the view that the riding mechanic role was the rule for the "co-driver", and that it was extremely rare for both occupants of the car to share driving duties.

[D-Type]

Can we draw an analogue with rallying, in pre- special stage times?  Some crews would share the driving 50:50; some would share selectively with the better driver tackling the tougher stages and the co-driver the "transport" sections; some would have a designated driver and navigator who performed these roles for the whole rally - since the development of pace notes, this is almost universal.
How relaxing or resting sitting in the second seat would be is debatable.

[Vitesse2]

Duncan has made the same point as I was about to! On the Monte cars sometimes had crews of three - two drivers and a third who was probably a specialist spanner wielder but could also drive the neutral/easier sections if required.* The third generally wasn't even named on the entry form. The nominated driver who wasn't at the wheel at any given point would probably be on the back seat trying to catch some sleep with the mechanic sitting in the front passenger seat.

 

* And also came in handy as 'third shovel' when digging the car out of a snowdrift!

[JoBo]

Taking a year at random - 1932 - I can believe Bignami was just along for the ride alongside the winner Borzacchini, but I'm sure that Trossi and Brivio (second) would have both taken the wheel. Canavesi - listed as Lurani's co-driver - was also in the entry list for Le Mans that year, with Minoia, although whether he drove at La Sarthe is moot, given that the car retired after 22 laps.

 

In 1938 I'd guess that Fane was the only member of the BMW team who drove all 1000 miles.

 

So I think the answer is - it depends. Most of the scurrying hordes of small Italian sports cars would surely have used both drivers - the final finisher in 1938 (a Fiat 500) was on the road for just over 23 hours.

My uncle took over the car (BMW 328 Touring) from von Hanstein in the 1940 Mille Miglia and drove it until the finish line!

[ReWind]

I know that the 1940 Mille Miglia wasn't the REAL Mille Miglia.
But this thread proves that there were shared drives even in the lesser edition.

 

EDIT: Beaten by seconds...

Edited by ReWind, 22 February 2022 - 13:54.

[Roger Clark]

I believe that Caracciola shared the driving in the 1930 Mille Miglia with Christian Werner, but drove all the way in 1931, when he won.

There is also the story of Giuseppe Campari in 1932 when he crashed out of the race. Some say that his mechanic, Sozzi (I don't know his first name) was driving at the time, others that he was holding the steering wheel while Campari changed his goggles. Either way, it was sufficient for Campari to chase Sozzi down the road with a hammer.

[Michael Ferner]

That must've been a sight to see!

[ensign14]

Surely toilet stops would have been a chance to swap drivers over if necessary?  Moss' first bog break in 1955 was after 3 and a half hours.

[RS2000]

Can we draw an analogue with rallying, in pre- special stage times?  Some crews would share the driving 50:50; some would share selectively with the better driver tackling the tougher stages and the co-driver the "transport" sections; some would have a designated driver and navigator who performed these roles for the whole rally - since the development of pace notes, this is almost universal.
How relaxing or resting sitting in the second seat would be is debatable.

 

The Liege was one event where two usual drivers (with some navigational ability essential, which did not apply to all drivers....) often teamed up and many regular co-drivers had to show they could be part time serious drivers.

Walter Rohrl lobbied for an end to through the night sections on our RAC rally to the extent that it became counter productive and it only ended when Timo Salonen became an advocate. "Valter" apparently declined any driving help from Christian Geisdorfer.

 

D-Type's last point is very relevant. I did six or 6 or 7 Internationals with one particular driver who was never 100% comfortable in the passenger seat and would not navigate either. Fortunately things did improve over time (and every other driver I drove was fine with me!).

By the time I drove the RAC the five days and four nights with only one night in bed were over and we had two nights rest, although I had been in a two man service crew for three of those earlier events. I found I could not totally relax with my competent experienced co-driver at the wheel, partly because I could not "feel" for any developing problems with my car. The second time I drove throughout and it was less stress. Probably a breach of the regulation that stated one driver must not drive for more than two hours without rest or relief...