28 replies to this topic

[Kuwashima]

Something I came across the other day, and the answer (or what I think is the answer) surprised me a little.

Which F1 driver has the most podium finishes without a win?

I know it can be answered in 30 seconds at FORIX, but what the heck! I thought it might provide food for some discussion ... or not

Also, following on from that (although this one's easier) which driver has the worst ratio of wins to podiums?

[david_martin]

Without checking I suspect that Stefan Johansson probably has the most podiums without a win - although Patrick Depallier, Eddie Ivine and Ritchie Ginther all probably had more podiums than Johansson before they got their first wins.

I guess that Jean Alesi has the worst ratio of podiums to wins.

[MrAerodynamicist]

Brundle. Amon?

As for Alesi, one inw, 32 podiums!

[condor]

I'd have to say - was either Brundle or Johannsen

[33 route d'orleans]

Kuwashima,
Well... I tried to make it with FORIX... Humm... not easy in fact !
Can anyone have a look at it ?

[Milan Fistonic]

Stefan Johansson had 12 podiums with no wins while Amon had 11.
Baghetti, Bonnier, Brambilla, Gethin and Scarfiotti all had only one visit to the podium and that was to the top step.

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by david_martin
Without checking I suspect that Stefan Johansson probably has the most podiums without a win - although Patrick Depallier, Eddie Ivine and Ritchie Ginther all probably had more podiums than Johansson before they got their first wins.

Now that we know the figure for Stefan (12) we can compare it with the ones you mentioned :

Depailler 15
Irvine 15
Ginther 13

That´s probably why some postings by some people without checking tend to be more beliveable than others, I guess...

Thanks David, very well done!

Felix

[MrAerodynamicist]

Fisichella 9
Brundle 9
Behra 9 [the only early years one I could find]
Cheever 9
Amon 11
Johansson 12

[Milan Fistonic]

Mika Hakkinen had 15 podium finishes before he won his first GP.

He also held the record for races started before his first win until Barrichello won last year.

[david_martin]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
That´s probably why some postings by some people without checking tend to be more beliveable than others, I guess...

Thanks David, very well done!

Felix

Felix, you are well and truly too kind. If only I could remember phone numbers and birthdays the same way as I can remember trivial motor sport statistics!

[Marcel Schot]

Speaking of podiums, how about most points without a podium?

So far Pierluigi Martini is the king with 18 points without a champagne shower. Anybody offering more?

[Kuwashima]

Well done on the inital issue, everyone!

Marcel, I think you are right with Pierluigi Martini on 18. Close to it is Mike Spence, who has just 1 podium (a 3rd) for his 27 points. As already mentioned Bonnier also only has 1 podium for his 39 points.

Closest in the other direction is Marc Surer with 17 points and no podiums, then Satoru Nakajima with 16 points.

[Milan Fistonic]

Martini does have the highest points total without a podium.

Martin Brundle has the highest points total without a win and he also has the highest points total without ever having led a GP.

[Barry Lake]

I think this is related to the subject of this forum...

My son used to be a fan of Derek Warwick, and he used to become frustrated at the number of times Warwick just missed out on gaining a point. He remembers him as having scored many seventh place finishes.

I seem to recall checking it once and it wasn't as many as he thought. Perhaps he was often running seventh before he retired or something.

Does anyone have a database or records that would easily show how many 7th placings he had.

The obvious next step is to check out who else has a high number of "nearlies" in terms of scoring points.

I suspect non-points places are more difficult to check, but I suppose it depends in what form you store your information.

[Kuwashima]

From FORIX...

Derek Warwick had two 2nds, two 3rds, eight 4ths, nine 5ths, nine 6ths, eight 7ths, three 8ths, five 9ths and nine 10ths.

[Barry Lake]

That was quick!

Maybe I should look at FORIX more often (but where would I find the time?).

Any other drivers challenge Warwick for the number of 7th places?

Actually, I just realised that in the early days of the WDC, just missing out was then sixth place.

[Marcel Schot]

Johnny Herbert		 17

Thierry Boutsen		12

Jo Bonnier			 12

John Watson			10

Olivier Panis		  10

Michele Alboreto	   10

Jochen Mass			 8

Jacques Laffite		 8

Jean Alesi			  8

Patrick Tambay		  8

Mika Salo			   8

Derek Warwick		   8

M.Gugelmin			  8

Eddie Irvine			7

A.de Cesaris			7

Alexander Wurz		  7

Jo Siffert			  7

Carlos Reutemann		7

Alain Prost			 7

Mario Andretti		  7

Martin Brundle		  7

P.Martini			   7

J.Villeneuve			6

Denny Hulme			 6

G.Fisichella			6

David Coulthard		 6

Eddie Cheever		   6

Graham Hill			 6

Jean Behra			  6

J.P.Jarier			  5

G.Villeneuve			5

Ayrton Senna			5

Riccardo Patrese		5

Satoru Nakajima		 5

Rene Arnoux			 5

Mark Blundell		   5

Elio de Angelis		 5

Jarno Trulli			5

Nelson Piquet		   5

V.Brambilla			 5

Marc Surer			  5

M.Trintignant		   5

Alex Caffi			  4

Bruce McLaren		   4

Jack Brabham			4

Pedro Diniz			 4

J.P.Beltoise			4

J J Lehto			   4

Luigi Villoresi		 4

Nigel Mansell		   4

Nicola Larini		   4

Mika Hakkinen		   4

Tony Maggs			  4

R.Barrichello		   4

James Hunt			  4

Chris Amon			  4

Chris Irwin			 4

E.Fittipaldi			4

T.de Graffenried		4

Harry Schell			4

Stefan Johansson		4

H.J.Stuck			   4

Jonathan Palmer		 4

Gerhard Berger		  4

John Surtees			4

O.Gendebien			 3

Andre Pilette		   3

Bob Gerard			  3

Bruno Giacomelli		3

Richie Ginther		  3

Mike Hailwood		   3

Damon Hill			  3

Roy Salvadori		   3

Ukyo Katayama		   3

Phil Hill			   3

Rolf Stommelen		  3

P.Depailler			 3

Derek Daly			  3

P.Ghinzani			  3

Shinji Nakano		   3

Mike Spence			 3

Tony Brise			  3

Chico Serra			 3

Francois Cevert		 3

Jody Scheckter		  3

Dan Gurney			  3

Alan Jones			  3

Aguri Suzuki			3

Stefano Modena		  3

Bob Anderson			3

Ronnie Peterson		 3

Jackie Oliver		   3

Mike Hawthorn		   3

Roberto Mieres		  2

Roberto Moreno		  2

Jacky Ickx			  2

Peter Revson			2

Ivan Capelli			2

Pedro Rodriguez		 2

Peter Collins		   2

Masten Gregory		  2

Philippe Streiff		2

Jim Clark			   2

Louis Rosier			2

Louis Chiron			2

Jos Verstappen		  2

A.Zanardi			   2

Tom Pryce			   2

A.de Adamich			2

C.G.de Beaufort		 2

Carlos Pace			 2

Howden Ganley		   2

Christian Danner		2

Henri Pescarolo		 2

Hector Rebaque		  2

Ricardo Zunino		  2

Didier Pironi		   2

Arturo Merzario		 2

Richard Attwood		 2

Yannick Dalmas		  2

W.Fittipaldi			2

Teo Fabi				2

G.Morbidelli			2

Cliff Allison		   2

Brian Redman			2

Ralf Schumacher		 2

Jackie Stewart		  2

Johnny Dumfries		 2

W.von Trips			 2

Johnny Boyd			 2

Andre Simon			 2

Slim Borgudd			1

Silvio Moser			1

Guy Edwards			 1

John Miles			  1

Jimmy Reece			 1

G.Tarquini			  1

Prince Bira			 1

Jan Magnussen		   1

Harald Ertl			 1

F.Hesnault			  1

Hap Sharp			   1

Emanuele Pirro		  1

Keke Rosberg			1

Henry Taylor			1

Geoff Lees			  1

H.Rothengatter		  1

T.Takagi				1

A.Nannini			   1

Innes Ireland		   1

Rupert Keegan		   1

Ingo Hoffman			1

David Hobbs			 1

Piero Taruffi		   1

Danny Sullivan		  1

Danny Ongais			1

M.Papis				 1

M.Schumacher			1

Mark Donohue			1

Trevor Taylor		   1

Corrado Fabi			1

Tim Schenken			1

Erik Comas			  1

Philippe Alliot		 1

Martin Donnelly		 1

Mauro Baldi			 1

Cesare Perdisa		  1

Peter Broeker		   1

Siegfried Stohr		 1

Eric Bernard			1

C.Fittipaldi			1

Ron Flockhart		   1

Umberto Maglioli		1

Mike Beuttler		   1

G.Baghetti			  1

Raul Boesel			 1

Brian Henton			1

Brett Lunger			1

Bob Bondurant		   1

Niki Lauda			  1

Nino Farina			 1

Vern Schuppan		   1

Vic Elford			  1

Ken Wharton			 1

Willy Mairesse		  1

Lella Lombardi		  1

O.Grouillard			1

Lloyd Ruby			  1

Olivier Beretta		 1

Paco Godia			  1

Roger Laurent		   1

Fred Agabashian		 1

Felice Bonetto		  1

Alan Brown			  1

Luigi Piotti			1

Lee Wallard			 1

Rudi Fischer			1

Alberto Ascari		  1

Alberto Uria			1

Henry Banks			 1

Andy Linden			 1

Jimmy Daywalt		   1

Jimmy Bryan			 1

Consalvo Sanesi		 1

G.Scarlatti			 1

Stirling Moss		   1

Fred Wacker			 1

Oscar Gonzalez		  1

E.Castellotti		   1

Edgar Barth			 1

Bob Sweikert			1

Charles Pozzi		   1

Elie Bayol			  1

Patrick Neve			1

Luca Badoer			 1

Pete Lovely			 1

Peter Arundell		  1

Ignazio Giunti		  1

Ian Burgess			 1

Nick Heidfeld		   1

Stefan Bellof		   1

Gregor Foitek		   1

Edgar Barth			 1

Jim Hall				1

Yes, I do have something better to do Only numbers 7 though. Maybe I'll have a look at early sixes later on, but I doubt I'll have the time to that ;)

[Kuwashima]

Wow! You're amazing Marcel. Thank you.

But don't you have anythi.... oh you've already answered that ;)

[Barry Lake]

Yes, Marcel, amazing!

I am not sure whether my son will be happy or disappointed at the news that Warwick was thoroughly beaten at the art of amassing 7th places.

[Barry Lake]

It just flashed through my mind to jokingly ask, "How do they compare in terms of 7th places as a percentage of GP starts..."

And then I thought you might actually do it.

I don't wish to be responsible for your being locked away in a padded cell (with a computer and modem...?)

[Barry Lake]

It just flashed through my mind to jokingly ask, "How do they compare in terms of 7th places as a percentage of GP starts..."

And then I thought you might actually do it.

I don't wish to be responsible for your being locked away in a padded cell (with a computer and modem...?)

[Marcel Schot]

Just edited the list to reflect number 6 rather than 7 for 1950-1959. See above for the result

[Marcel Schot]

Good idea Barry Just for those with 3 or more just-not's (the rest is way too much work without a database):

Bob Gerard			  3 / 8   37.5%

Andre Pilette		   3 / 9   33.3%

Tony Brise			  3 / 10  30.0%

Chris Irwin			 4 / 10  25.0%

O.Gendebien			 3 / 14  21.4%

T.de Graffenried		4 / 22  18.2%

Chico Serra			 3 / 18  16.7%

Tony Maggs			  4 / 25  16.0%

Alexander Wurz		  7 / 52  13.5%

Luigi Villoresi		 4 / 31  12.9%

Bob Anderson			3 / 25  12.0%

Jean Behra			  6 / 52  11.5%

Jo Bonnier			 12 / 104 11.5%

M.Gugelmin			  8 / 74  10.8%

Johnny Herbert		 17 / 160 10.6%

Olivier Panis		  10 / 97  10.3%

Shinji Nakano		   3 / 33   9.1%

Mika Salo			   8 / 93   8.6%

Mike Spence			 3 / 36   8.3%

Mark Blundell		   5 / 61   8.2%

Nicola Larini		   4 / 49   8.2%

Jochen Mass			 8 / 105  7.6%

G.Fisichella			6 / 80   7.5%

G.Villeneuve			5 / 67   7.5%

Thierry Boutsen		12 / 163  7.4%

Jarno Trulli			5 / 68   7.4%

Jo Siffert			  7 / 96   7.3%

Harry Schell			4 / 56   7.1%

Alex Caffi			  4 / 56   7.1%

Patrick Tambay		  8 / 114  7.0%

V.Brambilla			 5 / 74   6.8%

Satoru Nakajima		 5 / 74   6.8%

J.Villeneuve			6 / 88   6.8%

Mike Hawthorn		   3 / 45   6.7%

John Watson			10 / 152  6.6%

Francois Cevert		 3 / 46   6.5%

J J Lehto			   4 / 62   6.5%

Roy Salvadori		   3 / 47   6.4%

Phil Hill			   3 / 48   6.3%

Jackie Oliver		   3 / 49   6.1%

Derek Daly			  3 / 49   6.1%

Marc Surer			  5 / 82   6.1%

M.Trintignant		   5 / 82   6.1%

Mike Hailwood		   3 / 50   6.0%

P.Martini			   7 / 119  5.9%

Eddie Irvine			7 / 119  5.9%

Richie Ginther		  3 / 52   5.8%

Rolf Stommelen		  3 / 53   5.7%

Derek Warwick		   8 / 146  5.5%

Mario Andretti		  7 / 128  5.5%

H.J.Stuck			   4 / 74   5.4%

Denny Hulme			 6 / 112  5.4%

David Coulthard		 6 / 113  5.3%

Michele Alboreto	   10 / 194  5.2%

Stefan Johansson		4 / 79   5.1%

Jonathan Palmer		 4 / 83   4.8%

Carlos Reutemann		7 / 146  4.8%

Aguri Suzuki			3 / 64   4.7%

J.P.Beltoise			4 / 85   4.7%

Elio de Angelis		 5 / 108  4.6%

Jacques Laffite		 8 / 176  4.5%

Eddie Cheever		   6 / 132  4.5%

Martin Brundle		  7 / 158  4.4%

Stefano Modena		  3 / 70   4.3%

Bruno Giacomelli		3 / 69   4.3%

James Hunt			  4 / 92   4.3%

Jean Alesi			  8 / 190  4.2%

Chris Amon			  4 / 96   4.2%

Pedro Diniz			 4 / 98   4.1%

P.Ghinzani			  3 / 74   4.1%

J.P.Jarier			  5 / 134  3.7%

John Surtees			4 / 111  3.6%

Dan Gurney			  3 / 86   3.5%

Alain Prost			 7 / 199  3.5%

Rene Arnoux			 5 / 149  3.4%

A.de Cesaris			7 / 208  3.4%

Graham Hill			 6 / 176  3.4%

P.Depailler			 3 / 95   3.2%

Jack Brabham			4 / 126  3.2%

Ukyo Katayama		   3 / 94   3.2%

Ayrton Senna			5 / 161  3.1%

R.Barrichello		   4 / 136  2.9%

E.Fittipaldi			4 / 144  2.8%

Jody Scheckter		  3 / 112  2.7%

Alan Jones			  3 / 116  2.6%

Damon Hill			  3 / 115  2.6%

Mika Hakkinen		   4 / 151  2.6%

Nelson Piquet		   5 / 204  2.5%

Bruce McLaren		   4 / 100  2.5%

Ronnie Peterson		 3 / 123  2.4%

Nigel Mansell		   4 / 187  2.1%

Riccardo Patrese		5 / 256  2.0%

Gerhard Berger		  4 / 210  1.9%

[Kuwashima]

Ooh dear... Derek Warwick sinks even lower

[Barry Lake]

My son has plunged into a deep depression.

He said, "He could have at least been close."

Brightening a little, he added, "At least Johnny Herbert has some claim to fame."

He also said that, in every GP from now on, he might not remember the winner, but he will always remember who finished seventh.

Panis looks the best chance to break Herbert's unenviable record, but I am sure he (and we) would prefer to see him finishing in the points.

I don't suppose anyone wants to check if there is any connection between badly broken legs and finishing seventh...

[Marcel Schot]

Hmmm, nothing on that at Forix

Lemmy think.... Graham Hill, Johnny Herbert, Marc Surer, Olivier Panis... any more broken drivers?

[Barry Lake]

Jacques Laffite, Nelson Piquet...

But only after all the seventh places.

Still, it shows a connection in terms of bad luck.

[Falcadore]

How about most 7th's in a season? I remeber the late and much lamented Michele Alboreto had no difficulty in finishing races one year with the Arrows-Cosworth, but was continually just that one slot short of the points. 1992 I think.


Just looked it up. Michele has 6 sevenths in 1992, including four in a row. Monaco, Montreal, Magny-Cours & Silverstone, followed by a seventh at the Hockenheim before another seventh at the Hungaroring, then a gearbox failure at Spa-Francorchamps before the last seventh at his home race in Monza. He must have been so relieved when a sixth was achieved at Estoril next time out.

[fines]

Incidentally, to finish four times in a row in the same position is a VERY rare feat! Apart from the various numbers of successive wins, I think only Nelson Piquet (four 2nds in 1987) and Alboreto have ever achieved that! Also, four Fastest Race Laps in succession is very rare, iirc only Gilles Villeneuve (1979) and Riccardo Patrese (1989 ?) have ever done it.