788 replies to this topic

[loki]

Whose law?

EU and US sanctions. They carry a penalty of law.  According to press reports they used some sort of shell in the Middle East to act as a go between to comply with the sanctions.

[Wirdheim]

Can’t Pay We’ll Take It Away - F1 Edition.

Wouldn’t be the first F1 team featured on that show. They spent a whole episode at Lotus right before the Renault takeover.

[Beri]

EU and US sanctions. They carry a penalty of law.  According to press reports they used some sort of shell in the Middle East to act as a go between to comply with the sanctions.

 

Imposed sanctions never stand above laws. In this case, there is a ruling by a judge who has ruled that Haas has to pay. Despite the fact that there is a sanction, the payment of the money must be made as the law indicates. Even though this is in conflict with the imposed sanctions. So in no way this is breaking the law as implied earlier on.

[JeePee]

Have the trucks left Zandvoort yet?

[pdac]

EU and US sanctions. They carry a penalty of law.  According to press reports they used some sort of shell in the Middle East to act as a go between to comply with the sanctions.

 

But there are other laws that might apply - in these territories, as well as others.

[Anja]

Emergency over, the payment cleared and Haas is free to leave the track: https://racingnews36...zandvoort-drama

[STRFerrari4Ever]

Wouldn’t be the first F1 team featured on that show. They spent a whole episode at Lotus right before the Renault takeover.

I had no idea, I might have to try and find that episode for my bank holiday viewing pleasure.

[jcbc3]

For your convinience: https://www.eurospor...134/story.shtml

[BRG]

Now we wait for the US government to seize all of Haas's assets for sanctions busting.....

[baddog]

Now we wait for the US government to seize all of Haas's assets for sanctions busting.....

 

While one assumes they have been having conversations with the US government to make sure that didn't happen, it is amusing that the Haas threads here have been full of bile accusing them of being sanctions breakers (based on other news stories) and unfit to be here, and now this thread has been full of people calling them crooks for not paying/supplying gear to a Russian entity and potentially breaking sanctions.. almost like the hate came first and the specific reasons are excuses.

 

/to be clear I'm no special fan of Haas and think getting into bed with the Russians was a horrible idea from the start, and breaking sanctions is completely unacceptable. The situation in this specific case is one the team could hardly have predicted or easily avoided though.

[FirstnameLastname]

I’m amazed they managed to find a car to ship to these guys so quickly….

[Secretariat]

As I noted in the team thread, if you owe someone money, pay them. Haas is on record that there is no dispute that the money is owed. Specific to this situation, as it reads, completely an unneeded embarrassment. If Haas is going to employ lawyers, he needs better ones. We know his accountants are pretty good. Geopolitics aside and any opinions of Uralkali, it seems clear Haas told them to go away. Uralkali did not go away and now Haas has scrambled to pay money (which still does not seem to be settled) to which according to Gene was paid Friday after having assets impounded Thursday night. That is a pretty quick turnaround for $9 million if you are worried about sanctions.

[Beri]

Now we wait for the US government to seize all of Haas's assets for sanctions busting.....

Despite this being a tongue in cheek; a serious comment from me: sanctions do not supersede law. There is a court order and this simply, despite sanctions which are a political mean, has to be enforced.

[ensign14]

They do in England - the legal term is "frustration".  A court cannot order something illegal.

 

This is arbitration, which has to be enforced via a court order of some sort.  But we're dealing with Swiss arbitration and Swiss law, and the Swiss are Lawful Evil in D&D terms.

[jcbc3]

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

 

A dutch court told them to cough up.

[loki]

Despite this being a tongue in cheek; a serious comment from me: sanctions do not supersede law. There is a court order and this simply, despite sanctions which are a political mean, has to be enforced.

Not in the US.  Sanctions carry the same weight as law.  Just as an Executive Order or agency regulation would.  That’s why they used a middle east cut out for the payment.  Were that attempted to be enforced in the US it wouldn’t be successful.  In fact depending on the circumstances it could be seen as a mechanism to avoid sanctions which depending on how the approached it could be considered a violation.

 

As stated tongue in cheek earlier it would be possible for the US to seize Haas F1 assets in the US should they have been found to violated the sanctions.  But that wouldn’t happen until after a court weighed in.  Even then it’s more likely to be a fine and consent decree.  He dodged the tool company sanction in that the tools had been shipped prior to the sanctions and others were sold from areas well outside Russia and Europe.  You bet they’ll be watching him like a hawk.

[loki]

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

 

A dutch court told them to cough up.

Yep.  Short of challenging it in a Dutch court there isn’t a lot they can do besides pay.  Looks like they found a way around the sanctions where they couldn’t truthfully argue they couldn’t.

[Beri]

They do in England - the legal term is "frustration".  A court cannot order something illegal.

 

This is arbitration, which has to be enforced via a court order of some sort.  But we're dealing with Swiss arbitration and Swiss law, and the Swiss are Lawful Evil in D&D terms.

 

And this wasnt illegal. As stated many times before by me; sanctions do not supersede law. So a court order/verdict/give it a name should always be respected. No matter if there is a sanction at this moment.

 

Haas thought it was easy money to keep to hide behind the imposed sanctions. Well we saw that this actually took a bailiff with a court order to make it happen. So Haas is just another company that likes to stall things when they are against it. Uralkali was fully in their right to let Haas cough up the money.

[PayasYouRace]

And this wasnt illegal. As stated many times before by me; sanctions do not supersede law. So a court order/verdict/give it a name should always be respected. No matter if there is a sanction at this moment.

Haas thought it was easy money to keep to hide behind the imposed sanctions. Well we saw that this actually took a bailiff with a court order to make it happen. So Haas is just another company that likes to stall things when they are against it. Uralkali was fully in their right to let Haas cough up the money.

You’ve literally just been told that sanctions carry the same weight as the law in many other countries. It’s why Uralkali had to find somewhere were that doesn’t apply to bypass the sanctions.

[Clatter]

If I was f1 I tell the sponsor you breaking the law.

F1 doesn't write the laws, so they can say what they like, but the courts might well not agree with them.

[Secretariat]

I think the legal implications are pretty cut and dry as loki points out in regards to sanctions. The problem in this situation in my view is Haas already knew the legal implications and simply tried to use it as cover and avoid paying the money, but that was right up until bailiffs walked into their garage. Then according to Gene Haas it took them less than 24 hours to "work with its lawyers to ensure payment will comply with all relevant US, EU, UK and Swiss sanctions and regulations." Again, pretty quick work to wire money if there is an overarching concern of breaking the law, especially since there were previous allegations related to the subject of sanctions for Haas.

 

One of the things that keeps coming up for Gene Haas is his failure to pay what he owes whether it is taxes, Steiner and now a former sponsor. In all instances, it has taken court intervention.

[Sterzo]

And this wasnt illegal. As stated many times before by me; sanctions do not supersede law.

As far as I can understand with my limited knowledge, the sanctions we're talking about were not implemented as laws. However, there is a law which says government has the legal right to impose a financial penalty on those who breach sanctions. So Haas would not be prosecuted as criminals for breaching sanctions, but could be fined nevertheless.

 

That's the situation in the UK (based on the incautious assumption I'm right). Usually on such matters EU and US law are similar in their effects.

[Beri]

You’ve literally just been told that sanctions carry the same weight as the law in many other countries. It’s why Uralkali had to find somewhere were that doesn’t apply to bypass the sanctions.

 

Reading and understanding is difficult sometimes when you want to snap at someone. Keep it to the facts and what I have been saying.. Ill say it again; sanctions do not supersede law. That is what I have been saying.

 

They can act as an addition to law. They can also be backed up by law. But that is not what my reply was about. Here in The Netherlands, law supersedes everything. Which on its own is what makes verdicts sometimes hard to understand and accept at times in this country. But as Sterzo rightfully stated; The Netherlands has this stance and it is the whole reason why Uralkali didnt pick Italy or Belgium to do so, but rather The Netherlands to seize assets if execution of the court order was not done by Haas by the end of the Grand Prix weekend.

[PayasYouRace]

Calm down.

[pdac]

F1 doesn't write the laws, so they can say what they like, but the courts might well not agree with them.

 

It depends on the court and in which country it's in. There is not one court that overrides any others. An action can be legal in one territory and illegal in another. If you feel aggrieved about something and can get a favourable judgement in a particular court, that will only apply to the territories where that courts authority is acknowledged. What is 'law' is not so easy to identify when multiple territories and multiple governments are involved. Even within a single country one courts ruling can be overturned by another.

Edited by pdac, 28 August 2024 - 11:05.

[ensign14]

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

 

A dutch court told them to cough up.

 

A Dutch court (I presume) issued a hold on materials because of a Swiss judgment.  The Dutch courts are duty-bound to do so under the Lugano convention.  And there is no chance of the Dutch court overriding a Swiss arbitration because a) only the Swiss court can do that and b) arbitrations are known to be somewhat quick & dirty but enable the world to go around with some idea that some things can be enforced wherever.

[Clatter]

It depends on the court and in which country it's in. There is not one court that overrides any others. An action can be legal in one territory and illegal in another. If you feel aggrieved about something and can get a favourable judgement in a particular court, that will only apply to the territories where that courts authority is acknowledged. What is 'law' is not so easy to identify when multiple territories and multiple governments are involved. Even within a single country one courts ruling can be overturned by another.

But every court would override anything F1 says.

[pdac]

But every court would override anything F1 says.

 

True. Every F1 fan would too, probably.

[KWSN - DSM]

Fascinating how the forum lawyers continue this discussion after the payment have been made.

[BoDarvelle]

I just observing to see who appears to hate Haas more than Russia.

[midgrid]

Fascinating how the forum lawyers continue this discussion after the payment have been made.

Just as we like to discuss races after the chequered flag waves.

[KWSN - DSM]

Just as we like to discuss races after the chequered flag waves.

 

True.

[pdac]

I just observing to see who appears to hate Haas more than Russia.

 

Now I'm trying to imagine what thing would be like if Vlad Putin was running an F1 team and Gene Haas was head of Russia.

[Secretariat]

Given that Haas do not dispute they owed that money, it has little to do with politics, and a lot to do with Gene Haas in my opinion. It was a needless embarrassment to himself and his partners when there was a lot of positive news and vibes about this team. Nevertheless, in the long term it's a blip on the radar, but there was no reason to have this even be a blip.

Edited by Secretariat, 28 August 2024 - 22:35.

[loki]

As far as I can understand with my limited knowledge, the sanctions we're talking about were not implemented as laws. However, there is a law which says government has the legal right to impose a financial penalty on those who breach sanctions. So Haas would not be prosecuted as criminals for breaching sanctions, but could be fined nevertheless.

 

That's the situation in the UK (based on the incautious assumption I'm right). Usually on such matters EU and US law are similar in their effects.

Conspiring to avoid sanctions in the US would involve several charges in addition to the criminal violation of the regulation.  It is the law here and one can be criminally prosecuted depending on the circumstance.  In this case I doubt it would be prison.  More likely a fine.  That’s why they went through a third party.  Something like the tool violation had they been found to be purposely avoiding the sanctions to sell to Russian weapons builder could have resulted in prison.

[pdac]

Conspiring to avoid sanctions in the US would involve several charges in addition to the criminal violation of the regulation.  It is the law here and one can be criminally prosecuted depending on the circumstance.  In this case I doubt it would be prison.  More likely a fine.  That’s why they went through a third party.  Something like the tool violation had they been found to be purposely avoiding the sanctions to sell to Russian weapons builder could have resulted in prison.

 

Surely going through a 3rd party *IS* conspiring to avoid sanctions?

Edited by pdac, 29 August 2024 - 13:06.

[Jager]

There is nothing more hypocritcal than the US sanctions, especially when it comes to fertiliser. They've sanctioned Dmitry Mazepin, yet US farmers continue to buy truckloads of Russian potash.

 

In 2023, the USA imported $1.6 Billion of fertiliser from Russia:

 

United States Imports from Russia - 2024 Data 2025 Forecast 1992-2023 Historical (tradingeconomics.com)

 

If it's good enough for the US Government to allow its farmers to continue buying Russian potash, there's no reason why Haas shouldn't be allowed to pay the Uralkali what they're owed.

[loki]

Surely going through a 3rd party *IS* conspiring to avoid sanctions?

That’s what I thought as well.  Reports say part of the hold up was structuring it in a way that didn’t violate the sanctions in any of the countries.   Ultimately the money still goes to the company.  I’d like to see how they avoided sanctions violation.

[Nathan]

There is nothing more hypocritcal than the US sanctions, especially when it comes to fertiliser. They've sanctioned Dmitry Mazepin, yet US farmers continue to buy truckloads of Russian potash.

 

 

We've also never bought more uranium from Russia as well, with the U.S. only banning it in the last few months.