638 replies to this topic

[jcbc3]

No matter if it's arbitration or court or in the US or Europe (or Singapore?), I trust the adjudicating powers to follow the laws as written and intended and in absolutely now way take into account 'the present climate'.

 

Ensign can educate you guys better on how arbitration work and, imho, if arbitration goes against Haas but they still refuse to hand over the money, even a US court will tell Haas to obey. The whole idea about having a contract and signing up for disputes to be resolved by arbitration is that courts can be avoided. Firstly to get a swifter resolve and secondly because the arbiter has a more detailed knowledge of commercial law than a judge don't have, meaning a better chance of a fair result for both parties.

[eibyyz]

"Injure, bring into disrepute, ridicule, or lessen the public reputation, goodwill or favourable image of Haas" - that is emotional sentiment. How else to judge that?

 

It was already mentioned that Haas' NA$CAR sponsors were rattling sabers about Uralkali's presence.  Unless hairs want to be split betw. HAAS F1 and Stewart-Haas, I think that's a smoking gun at least.

[KWSN - DSM]

I do not really get why you guys want to break the law, ignore contract to effect of going into arbitration as a consequence of a country breaking the law.

[uzsjgb]

Timing of Haas backing out for starters.

 

What do you mean by timing? Haas could only cancel the contract after they were injured, brought into disrepute, ridiculed, etc.

 

Reading this forum, one could surely make the case that they had been ridiculed and brought into disrepute long before their main sponsor stood alongside Putin during his declaration of war, but that would only make Haas' case stronger.

[KWSN - DSM]

What do you mean by timing? Haas could only cancel the contract after they were injured, brought into disrepute, ridiculed, etc.

 

Reading this forum, one could surely make the case that they had been ridiculed and brought into disrepute long before their main sponsor stood alongside Putin during his declaration of war, but that would only make Haas' case stronger.

 

First you should read the article, then you should read why I and others do not think Haas have the grounds to keep the money, to ask for more. 

[boomn]

I don't think the timing of the sanctions is ultimately important to the question of disrepute.  Dmitry Mazepin, in his role as owner of Uralchem, was seen in photos in a meeting with Putin the morning of the invasion.  That immediately brought Haas under a lot of scrutiny, and the public shaming of Haas didn't wait for any official sanctions.  

[jcbc3]

Immaterial to the contract. Angela Merkel, Barack Obama and Joe Biden has also been meeting Putin. Macron even met him after the invasion. As did the Austrian chancellor. 

[Nathan]

Seems guilty by association.  I don't quite understand how Uralkali ‘injured, brought into dispute, ridiculed, or lessened the public reputation, goodwill of favourable image of Haas’ because Russia invaded Ukraine.  I get Uralkali gets painted with the same brush being Russian, but that doesn't mean Uralkali caused the fallout on Haas.  It's like suing Boeing for being American because the American government did something bad.

Edited by Nathan, 14 April 2022 - 15:28.

[boomn]

Seems guilty by association.  I don't quite understand how Uralkali ‘injured, brought into dispute, ridiculed, or lessened the public reputation, goodwill of favourable image of Haas’ because Russia invaded Ukraine.  I get Uralkali gets painted with the same brush being Russian, but that doesn't mean Uralkali caused the fallout on Haas.  It's like suing Boeing for being American because the American government did something bad.

 

Immaterial to the contract. Angela Merkel, Barack Obama and Joe Biden has also been meeting Putin. Macron even met him after the invasion. As did the Austrian chancellor. 

I agree, it's a bit iffy and a big grey area.  But so is the idea of "disrepute", which is judged based on how the public or other businesses have responded.  Biden, Merkel, etc are known by the public to be in opposition to Putin and the invasion, while Dmitry Mazepin is known to be a close supporter of Putin and continued to be a supporter after these meetings.  There is no question that Mazepin's close association and continued support brought about a much more heated public shaming of Haas than would have happened if Mazepin distanced himself from Putin or if Uralkali had a different owner who had no ties to Putin and was therefore publicly perceived as neutral or benign

Edited by boomn, 14 April 2022 - 15:45.

[Sterzo]

There are two entirely separate elements here, which we're in danger of muddling up:

 

1. What any of us thinks is morally right or wrong.

2. The law and the contract wording and whether that supports Uralkali or Haas.

 

I can well imagine how the involvement of one party in the funding or supporting of a war denounced by the United Nations, could be seen as damaging to the reputation of a company selling machine tools across the world. It doesn't even need Mazepin or Uralkali to be directly culpable.

[PayasYouRace]

Leave the personal attacks at the door please. Posts removed.

[pdac]

It won't be in court but private arbitration under a ICC rules. That's oftentimes Swiss or French when the parties are from east and west as here.

 

The problem would not be so much getting a judgement as actually getting payment. Sanctions and all that.

[pdac]

I do not really get why you guys want to break the law, ignore contract to effect of going into arbitration as a consequence of a country breaking the law.

 

I was thinking more about actually getting recompense, not breaking laws. Right now, the court may rule in their favour, but the government is going to say "thanks, we'll keep that money safe for you, if you don't mind". That is, of course, once all of the counter suits and appeals have finally been wound up. I'm just saying they could be waiting a very long time for 'justice'.

[KWSN - DSM]

I was thinking more about actually getting recompense, not breaking laws. Right now, the court may rule in their favour, but the government is going to say "thanks, we'll keep that money safe for you, if you don't mind". That is, of course, once all of the counter suits and appeals have finally been wound up. I'm just saying they could be waiting a very long time for 'justice'.

 

Uralkali not getting the money after Haas pay back what they have to is between the Government placing money on hold, have zero to do with Haas's responsibility under the signed contract.

[jcbc3]

Any reasonable arbitration will go against Haas on this one. And rightfully so.

 

The issue then becomes how the money can be transferred to the Mazepins. An escrow account would be best. Then it can be resolved by either waiting until sanctions are lifted or the money is taken by the government.

 

One thing is for sure, is that it is not Haas's to keep legally.

 

 

IMHO

 

 

The problem would not be so much getting a judgement as actually getting payment. Sanctions and all that.

 

Yes, as I said already.

[Alfisti]

Seriously gene and Gunther better have eyes in the back if their heads. Playing with dead set fire here.

[loki]

No matter if it's arbitration or court or in the US or Europe (or Singapore?), I trust the adjudicating powers to follow the laws as written and intended and in absolutely now way take into account 'the present climate'.

 

Ensign can educate you guys better on how arbitration work and, imho, if arbitration goes against Haas but they still refuse to hand over the money, even a US court will tell Haas to obey. The whole idea about having a contract and signing up for disputes to be resolved by arbitration is that courts can be avoided. Firstly to get a swifter resolve and secondly because the arbiter has a more detailed knowledge of commercial law than a judge don't have, meaning a better chance of a fair result for both parties.

 

Not necessarily in the US.  Depending on the circumstances arbitrations have been vacated.   As stated prior the Mazepins aren’t going to be able to hire counsel for a civil case nor appear in the US to enforce it.  You’re assuming there is an arbitration agreement.  Given what I know about how Gene Haas does business I doubt he’d agree to an arbitration provision in the first place.

[ensign14]

Not necessarily in the US.  Depending on the circumstances arbitrations have been vacated.  

It's very difficult though.  In many jurisdictions, you have to prove outright fraud to get an arbitration decision set aside.  It's one reason why people put arbitration clauses in contracts; it gives a result that enables people to move on without faffing around with an appeal for years.  E.g. there is no mutual enforcement provision between the UK and USA, if you win in Britain you cannot enforce as of right in the US, and vice-versa; but a British arbitration under one of the international treaties is something the American courts will follow.

 

Only other way to avoid is not to play and claim the arbitration is a nullity from the start.

[thiscocks]

Looks extremely hypocritical if Haas claim that Uralkali's involvement / association with the war damages their image but yet want to keep money which comes from the country everyone is denouncing for the war!

[danmills]

No but that owed money could at least, in part, be used as a form of compensation so in a legal sense Uralkali is refunded only to have to pay out.

Technically no money changes hands, its just the wording.

[noikeee]

I don't give two shits about Uralkali the Mazepins or Russia but I don't see how this works out for Haas.

[loki]

It's very difficult though.  In many jurisdictions, you have to prove outright fraud to get an arbitration decision set aside.  It's one reason why people put arbitration clauses in contracts; it gives a result that enables people to move on without faffing around with an appeal for years.  E.g. there is no mutual enforcement provision between the UK and USA, if you win in Britain you cannot enforce as of right in the US, and vice-versa; but a British arbitration under one of the international treaties is something the American courts will follow.

 

Only other way to avoid is not to play and claim the arbitration is a nullity from the start.

Doubtful the contract stipulates the UK as jurisdiction given the parent is Haas Formula in Kannapolis.   The races and design ops are subsidiaries.  Sponsorship and biz dev are in North Carolina under Joe Custer.  The sanctions are going to drag on for years.  There is a good chance they won’t go away until either Putin falls or dies.

[Deeq]

The whole thing is the fault of the indivitual sanctions regimen..opens can of worms and neverending moral/legal dilemmas.
Gult by association is the core of the system and Its odiuos to the core.😡
Btw what is Mazebin jr being sanctioned for being His fathers son or a thought crime i.e. not condemning the invasion...just being nitwit?

[ensign14]

Doubtful the contract stipulates the UK as jurisdiction given the parent is Haas Formula in Kannapolis.   The races and design ops are subsidiaries.  Sponsorship and biz dev are in North Carolina under Joe Custer.  The sanctions are going to drag on for years.  There is a good chance they won’t go away until either Putin falls or dies.

Depends how much Gene wants the money, somewhere like Switzerland may have been taken as the governing law as a literal neutral choice.  Also note that the seat of the arbitration need not be the country of the governing law - and the seat of the arbitration is not necessarily where the arbitration takes place (e.g. you can choose France as the seat of the arbitration, i.e. French law governs the conduct of the arbitration itself and any appeal, but you can actually host the arbitration in Butt**** SC if you want).

[loki]

I don't see Haas agreeing to arbitration.  Regardless of any arbitration the Feds aren’t going to allow any transfer of finds to happen.

[FirstnameLastname]

‘We’ll pay you back when sanctions are lifted…

At £10 per month’

[ensign14]

I don't see Haas agreeing to arbitration.  Regardless of any arbitration the Feds aren’t going to allow any transfer of finds to happen.

The tactic, I would surmise, is that Haas objects to an arbitration while Uralkali et al are under sanction as participating in it might be deemed to be sanction-busting.

[loki]

Ol’ Gene did a 16 month bit on a 24 month beef at Lompoc for conspiracy as part of a plea.  Plus restrictive probation and a $75 mil restitution.  He doesn’t want to go back for evading sanctions.  Any funds from judgements, receivables that belong to either Mazepin are subject to forfeiture under US law now.  Willfully violating is a criminal offense.

[Muppetmad]

https://www.motorspo...lkali/10063976/

 

I must say, there is something rather amusing about Mazepin presuming to lecture F1 about values.

Edited by Muppetmad, 20 April 2022 - 11:25.

[pacificquay]

God knows why Autosport/Motorsport is even giving space to him

[jcbc3]

Because he has a valid point?

[Clatter]

https://www.motorspo...lkali/10063976/

I must say, there is something rather amusing about Mazepin presuming to lecture F1 about values.

Can't bring himself to condemn the invasion.

[Pingu Pi]

https://www.motorspo...lkali/10063976/

 

I must say, there is something rather amusing about Mazepin presuming to lecture F1 about values.

 

“I've been living for 23 years, and I was living in a very calm world. But as to my official position, I've said many times that it's very important to be neutral for me, because I'm an athlete. And I feel that it's important to be able to be neutral. Even for that, I have created a foundation that will help athletes stay neutral in principle.” 

 

Neutrality against war crimes... no basically it's a self-serving plea to not be seen on the wrong side of heinous acts. At it's best it's because he doesn't want to upset his dad and his inheritance... at worst it's because he supports the war and the savage acts on innocent Ukrainians. 

He lives in delusion and privilege. Each of his acts and words within F2, F1 and outside that i've seen stand in testament to such     Woe is Nikita Mazepin 

Edited by Pingu Pi, 20 April 2022 - 13:38.

[bargeboard]

Neutrality against war crimes... no basically it's a self-serving plea to not be seen on the wrong side of heinous acts. At it's best it's because he doesn't want to upset his dad and his inheritance... at worst it's because he supports the war and the savage acts on innocent Ukrainians. 

He lives in delusion and privilege. Each of his acts and words within F2, F1 and outside that i've seen stand in testament to such     Woe is Nikita Mazepin 

 

Maybe that's why he was so slow last year - always in neutral. What a sack of ####.

[Ferrim]

What do you mean by timing? Haas could only cancel the contract after they were injured, brought into disrepute, ridiculed, etc.

 

Reading this forum, one could surely make the case that they had been ridiculed and brought into disrepute long before their main sponsor stood alongside Putin during his declaration of war, but that would only make Haas' case stronger.

 

That ridicule and disrepute were of Haas' own making, though...

[FLB]

Well, look who's back: Mazepin Named In 99 Racing Team Oreca For Asian Le Mans Series | dailysportscar.com

[Widefoot2]

Well, look who's back: Mazepin Named In 99 Racing Team Oreca For Asian Le Mans Series | dailysportscar.com

F that team, and F the series if they let Mazepin race.

[Myrvold]

Even worse. 99 racing runs #98

[PayasYouRace]

I bet they don’t do a Flake either.