25 replies to this topic

[cpbell]

I'm not sure whether this thread ought to be in RC or not, but I'll leave that to our wonderful moderation team .  I waited to post this as I didn't want to deflect attention from the excellent winning entry to the annual FE circuit competition, which was more inventive than anything I'd ever be able to create.  Around the time we were working on our entries, the Autosport site and print magazine revealed that the city of Bournemouth, a resort on the south coast of the UK that is most associated with retirees, was in discussion with the Formula E promoters regarding the possibility of hosting a round of the FE World Championship.

 

For context, the day after I read the news, I found the Bournemouth proposal PDF (https://www.wessexen...Bournemouth.pdf) and spent a few hours deciphering the circuit map and vague description in order to follow the proposed track on Google Maps satellite view.  I feel it is entirely fair to say that I was unimpressed; the circuit consists mostly of blasts along urban dual carriageways (median-separated highways to US members), interspersed by roundabouts.  In both my original Norwich and Novi Sad entries I'd tried to avoid roundabouts as not only would they provide minimal potential for energy regeneration and overtaking, they present difficulties in terms of runoff provision.  Obviously, I know that several entries to our competition were not dissimilar to the Bournemouth plan; the crucial difference was that, IMHO, those entries were more varied across the length of the lap.  By contrast, the Bournemouth idea is, as I said, rather repetitive.

 

Furthermore, Bournemouth as city is around the same size as my home city of Norwich, though the greater urban area in which it is situated is indeed larger, and, to my amazement, I recently read an interview with the CEO of Formula E (https://www.sportspr...sustainability/) which indicated that they were in the early phases of dialogue with the Bournemouth team, indicating that a proposal from a smaller city than the usual host of an E-Prix isn't unthinkable.  Coincidentally, since my inadequate Norwich proposal rightly was rejected in the 2nd annual competition here, I had continued to put in an hour here and there to improve, refine and re-think the design.  This has now got to the stage where I feel that most of the weaknesses of the original design have been sorted-out, though, until I reflected upon the Bournemouth plan, I hadn't contemplated anything more than working on my Norwich idea for my own interest.  Having  thought about the Bournemouth layout, though, I found myself, unusually given that my self-confidence is, at best, limited, thinking "even my plan is better than that!", and, with regional pride also becoming a factor, the thought came to mind "how could a private individual attempt to propose a semi-serious idea for such an event?"

 

What I'd like to ask you all is, if I posted my plan here, could I be selfish in asking for honest (i.e. not p***-taking) opinions and thoughts on whether the whole idea has any mileage, please?  If you think it's a bad idea, I want to know, but don't be too harsh - I'm probably getting over-excited and losing perspective on the whole idea.

 

Thanks.

Edited by cpbell, 15 March 2022 - 22:45.

[NewMrMe]

Interesting questions.

 

I think the biggest challenge an ordinary member of the public will face in putting together such a proposal is going to be quantifying the benefit of hosting such an event. Are there economic benefits? How many visitors would you expect? How much would they spend in the local economy? Are the benefits just economic or marketing, i.e. raising awareness of the host location. There will also be costs involved with closing off city streets/.  If you haven't got experience of organising major events you would probably need someone on board who has and you will also need to be able to justify your estimated figures when selling the benefits.

 

In terms of the circuit itself and your criticisms of the Bournemouth proposal, there is another constraint that the real FE circuit designers have to work around that were not applicable to the design competitions and that is which streets the local authorities are prepared to close. Once that discussion has happened it might scupper the idea if you cannot use certain streets or you might find you end up with a less interesting layout than originally planned. I do sometimes wonder how often the latter scenario applies. Several of the circuit layouts do look a lot less interesting than what could potentially be achieved and that would be a potential explanation.

[cpbell]

Interesting questions.

 

I think the biggest challenge an ordinary member of the public will face in putting together such a proposal is going to be quantifying the benefit of hosting such an event. Are there economic benefits? How many visitors would you expect? How much would they spend in the local economy? Are the benefits just economic or marketing, i.e. raising awareness of the host location. There will also be costs involved with closing off city streets/.  If you haven't got experience of organising major events you would probably need someone on board who has and you will also need to be able to justify your estimated figures when selling the benefits.

 

In terms of the circuit itself and your criticisms of the Bournemouth proposal, there is another constraint that the real FE circuit designers have to work around that were not applicable to the design competitions and that is which streets the local authorities are prepared to close. Once that discussion has happened it might scupper the idea if you cannot use certain streets or you might find you end up with a less interesting layout than originally planned. I do sometimes wonder how often the latter scenario applies. Several of the circuit layouts do look a lot less interesting than what could potentially be achieved and that would be a potential explanation.

Agreed - these are a couple of the considerations that led me to hesitate greatly before even posting here on the forum.  I suspect that the councillors in City Hall would actually reject the entire premise out of hand as they are infamously anti-car and have made some of the streets in my plan accessible to buses only.  Ironically, the section around the Castle became the most polluted part of the city after being closed to private cars as it became full of buses running their engines. 

 

I think the appearance of the Bournemouth proposal, which seems to have been developed by a consortium of bussiness types there, changed my approach from "I'm just modifying my old Norwich plan for my own amusement and might enter it in next year's competition" to "someone in Bournemouth had to have had much the same idea as I've had, so why not?"

Edited by cpbell, 16 March 2022 - 16:29.

[Sterzo]

Two fascinating posts, and I think NewMrMe highlights a fundamental problem relating to street circuits, which is: the political, financial and logistical issues come first, the quality of the circuit comes a poor last.

 

I'm sure there would be interest in a proposed circuit layout, given the interest in the other thread. Best of luck avoiding references to Alan Partridge, though...

 

Have you researched your councillors, cpbell? If there's an ex-Snetterton competitor amongst them, that could could be your route in.

[cpbell]

Two fascinating posts, and I think NewMrMe highlights a fundamental problem relating to street circuits, which is: the political, financial and logistical issues come first, the quality of the circuit comes a poor last.

 

I'm sure there would be interest in a proposed circuit layout, given the interest in the other thread. Best of luck avoiding references to Alan Partridge, though...

 

Have you researched your councillors, cpbell? If there's an ex-Snetterton competitor amongst them, that could could be your route in.

Thanks Sterzo.  I thought that trying to get a feel for whether my plan as it stands would be of interest to FE would be the first stage of any process, then speaking with the council, and, after that, pitching it to local businesses.  Of course, I have 0 experience in anything even remotely related to this so am basing that on inference and snippets from other cases in the past.  Amongst us Norfolk and Norwich types, Partridge is seen, I think, as being a double-edged sword - the character certainly raised the profile of the area, which was often forgotten by those elsewhere in the country, but the portrayal of local stereotypes perhaps hasn't endeared the character to us.

Edited by cpbell, 16 March 2022 - 16:28.

[Risil]

I think the people above are right, the key to getting this done is finding the political support locally that a race is worth disrupting normal life for, finding some people who will finance it, and having a plan to persuade (or bypass) important people who might object like business owners, voters, councillors etc. I doubt Formula E would want to know until you've got all that sewn up (or rather, until your consortium has convinced them they've got it sewn up).

 

Like Sterzo says, the first step is to find a petrolheaded councillor and give them the pitch. There is very little chance of success unless you find a core of people in business and politics who are as enthusiastic as you. If nothing else, have fun exploring the idea. I reckon it might also be worth researching other street circuits, both the successful and less successful ones and getting an understanding about the challenges involved. The Birmingham Super Prix was quite a long time ago but I doubt English local politics has changed much in the meantime and all the political wrangles required to put the event on are well documented. You could also look at the Battersea Park Formula E race from a few years ago, iirc they had to overcome a lot of resistance from residents to get the race going (was it worth it?)

[cpbell]

I think the people above are right, the key to getting this done is finding the political support locally that a race is worth disrupting normal life for, finding some people who will finance it, and having a plan to persuade (or bypass) important people who might object like business owners, voters, councillors etc. I doubt Formula E would want to know until you've got all that sewn up (or rather, until your consortium has convinced them they've got it sewn up).

 

Like Sterzo says, the first step is to find a petrolheaded councillor and give them the pitch. There is very little chance of success unless you find a core of people in business and politics who are as enthusiastic as you. If nothing else, have fun exploring the idea. I reckon it might also be worth researching other street circuits, both the successful and less successful ones and getting an understanding about the challenges involved. The Birmingham Super Prix was quite a long time ago but I doubt English local politics has changed much in the meantime and all the political wrangles required to put the event on are well documented. You could also look at the Battersea Park Formula E race from a few years ago, iirc they had to overcome a lot of resistance from residents to get the race going (was it worth it?)

Thanks Risil!  Yes, the two cases you mention are likely to be very interesting, in particular Birmingham as I think they had to get an Act of Parliament in order to allow the event to proceed - fortunately, more recent legislation has solved that problem.

[cpbell]

Deleted.

Edited by cpbell, 23 March 2022 - 21:20.

[cpbell]

Any opinions?

[Collombin]

Will it affect access to Dixons by traders?

[Sterzo]

I don't know Norwich, but it looks like it would go close to the castle, it crosses the river and actually looks like a longer and better circuit than is the norm for Formula E.

 

You might find that it encloses too much of the city, from the point of view of minimising disruption.

 

There's a clue about possible people to interest, in that it passes near some hotels, businesses who would benefit from a race. What a shame the involvement of Lotus in Formula E, rumoured at the start of 2021, didn't come about. Even so, they might be potential allies, you never know.

[cpbell]

Will it affect access to Dixons by traders?

Probably LOL.

[cpbell]

I don't know Norwich, but it looks like it would go close to the castle, it crosses the river and actually looks like a longer and better circuit than is the norm for Formula E.

 

You might find that it encloses too much of the city, from the point of view of minimising disruption.

 

There's a clue about possible people to interest, in that it passes near some hotels, businesses who would benefit from a race. What a shame the involvement of Lotus in Formula E, rumoured at the start of 2021, didn't come about. Even so, they might be potential allies, you never know.

Cheers. Castle Meadow, the long left-hander at the northern end of the track actually runs at the base of the  Castle mound.
 

Edited by cpbell, 20 March 2022 - 23:03.

[BerniesDad]

You might find that it encloses too much of the city, from the point of view of minimising disruption.

 

 

This.

 

Quite a few FE circuits are not around the 'central' part of town, or are held in a park on the outskirts. If I had a shop in the town centre (e.g. John Lewis) I might be quite annoyed at the idea that even though there may be thousands more people in town on that weekend, none of them can actually get to my shop. Or else just chancing my arm that the council will give me a bit off my rates for the disruption.

Sorry to be a negative ninny, cos I really like the look of the circuit. I don't know Norwich, but it looks like you've incorporated the bits that the local council might want to showcase.

[cpbell]

This.

 

Quite a few FE circuits are not around the 'central' part of town, or are held in a park on the outskirts. If I had a shop in the town centre (e.g. John Lewis) I might be quite annoyed at the idea that even though there may be thousands more people in town on that weekend, none of them can actually get to my shop. Or else just chancing my arm that the council will give me a bit off my rates for the disruption.

Sorry to be a negative ninny, cos I really like the look of the circuit. I don't know Norwich, but it looks like you've incorporated the bits that the local council might want to showcase.

Good commentary, and I've actually been working on an alternative that is less picturesque.  All I would say is that the best shopping streets in the medieval pedestrianised area, known as the Norwich Lanes, along with the Market, City Hall and the Jarrolds department store, lie just to the west of the northern end of the track.

[cpbell]

Part of the problem is that I think that the minimum width for an FIA-licensed grid is 12 metres (can anyone with access to the relevant documents please confirm?) and trying to find a street in Norwich that's 12 metres in width without having to demilish the central reservation of an urban dual carriageway including street lights is difficult.

[NewMrMe]

I don't now Norwich at all myself, but I agree with the comment about John Lewis being enclosed within the circuit. When I made my initial comments about which roads local authorities would be prepared to close, key retail sites was one of the things I was thinking they might not want blocked off.

 

Have you also thought about what time of year you would want to run the event? Considering that you have a school enclosed within the circuit and you want to use the football stadium for the fan zone, it looks like sometime in the school holidays outside of the football season.

[cpbell]

I don't now Norwich at all myself, but I agree with the comment about John Lewis being enclosed within the circuit. When I made my initial comments about which roads local authorities would be prepared to close, key retail sites was one of the things I was thinking they might not want blocked off.

 

Have you also thought about what time of year you would want to run the event? Considering that you have a school enclosed within the circuit and you want to use the football stadium for the fan zone, it looks like sometime in the school holidays outside of the football season.

I'm thinking late July or early August for those reasons.  I've found FIA Appendix O, which recommends a mimimum track width of 12 metres and a minimum grid width of 15, but that cannot surely apply to FE?

[NewMrMe]

Another potential snag, is it blocking access to the train station?

[cpbell]

For comparison, I've marked-out the Bournemouth plan on Google Maps:

Edited by cpbell, 21 March 2022 - 19:18.

[NewMrMe]

That has Primark in the middle, so it looks like Bournemouth council don't consider blocking off retail sites to be the issue I thought it might be. Maybe that isn't such a problem after all.

[cpbell]

That has Primark in the middle, so it looks like Bournemouth council don't consider blocking off retail sites to be the issue I thought it might be. Maybe that isn't such a problem after all.

There is an underpass mid-way along the northern part of the circuit, though.

[cpbell]

Another potential snag, is it blocking access to the train station?

Not foot access - there is a route onto Thorpe Road near the junction with Riverside Road.

[jonpollak]

That Best Western hotel is a DUMP !!! Stayed there twice !!!
The Connaught should sue them to Helen Back for naming rights fraud.

Good luck cpbell .
Noble effort!!
Jp

[cpbell]

Thanks all for the assistance.  Sadly, my plan as shown is now impossible due to work to install trees at the north end of St. Stephens', which was closed to cars years ago and now only sees buses.

[cpbell]

Reviving this thread: having been to the junction in question today, it IS still feasible, as the trees are mostly inside the line of the pavement/sidewalk, and there is at least 40 metres available for escape road.